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I am interested in seeing the Lincoln sites in Springfield and was thinking of adding this on to my Cardinal/Indianapolis trip, since hotels in Springfield are fairly inexpensive. But since I cannot afford to stay in Chicago in March, and cannot afford more than 2 nights in Indianapolis and 2 nights in Springfield, every scenario I plan for visiting Springfield cuts heavily into my time in Indianapolis. Plus, it probably involves more buses (I already have to take a bus from Indianapolis back to Chicago and also possibly a bus from Charlottesville to DC), And it would mean taking the Lakeshore Ltd (on its new schedule) westbound and only taking the Cardinal eastbound--which might be a good thing, since I'm going coach and the LSL in theory at least is 5 hours shorter--but taking the Cardinal in March is still my MAIN point of the trip.
So, should I consider this Springfield addendum, or skip it for now? Has anyone been there lately? I heard it had been fixed up and the Lincoln sights were very nice.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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I'm afraid that I cannot tell you much about Springfield itself BUT getting to Indianapolis from Springfield is made easier by a Thruway Bus connection at Bloomington-Normal, IL. (Timetable appears near that of the Cardinal I believe.)That service is operated by Burlington Trailways and they have proven to be a reliable operator. I once spent an afternoon at their repair shop in Burlington, IA but that's an entirely different story!
You could go Lake Shore to Chicago and then whatever St. Louis bound train departs next to Springfield. Starting back you could catch the train to Bloomington-Normal (home of Illinois State University) and the bus to Indy and resume your orinigal itinerary there.
Personally, I think a Springfield addition is the thing that adds just enough to turn this into a really interesting trip.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hi, Sojourner, We were in Springfield about 5 years ago. We found it very interesting and Lincoln's burial site was really unbelievable. I can't tell you about transportation as we were on a 3 week driving vacation. I do have in my travel journel that we stayed at the Signature Inn, had dinner onenight at the Old Country Buffet and found the Village of Old Salem very interesting, I hope this helps you a little.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Glad to hear you're thinking of including Springfield in your itinerary. There's a whole lot of history there. Since you won't have a car, I thought you might be interested in this:
Springfield Trolley Tours
Location(s) 522 East Monroe, Suite 300
Area: Downtown Phone: 217/528-4100 Fax: 217/528-4105 Hours: Daily – 9:00 a.m. – 4:00 p.m. Approximately 45 minutes between Trolleys at each stop. All times, schedules and fares are subject to change.
Description: Park your car and explore several Springfield historic sites and attractions on this old-time trolley car. The trolley runs daily between 10 different locations. Trolley stops include: Lincoln’s Home & Visitors Center, Dana-Thomas House, Illinois State Museum, Illinois State Capitol, State Capitol Complex Visitors Center, Old State Capitol Plaza (6th & Adams Streets), Abraham Lincoln Presidential Museum, Tinsley Dry Goods Store (Lincoln-Herndon Law Office), Lincoln’s Tomb, and the Lincoln Souvenir & Gift Shop. Trolley tickets are available at the Lincoln Home Visitors Center, the Illinois State Museum, and Tinsley Dry Goods Store.
Also, from the Chicago tribune: If you arrive by Amtrak and don't rent a car, key sites are accessible via the Springfield Trolley (day pass with on-off privileges, $10; quick tour, $7), Springfield Mass Transit buses marked "Historic Sites Route" (day pass, $3; or one-trip fare, 75 cents).
Hope you have a great trip.
Posts: 149 | From: Joliet, IL USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Thank you both so much for the info. [I am deleting the rest of this post and putting new info below. Sorry if I messed up; I didn't mean to delete quite so much but now--poof!--it's gone and I cannot get it back!]
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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we took the Cardinal once from Indy. The CZ was 9 hours late leaving Denver and never made up the time. 30 of us were taken off in Galesburg and bused to Indy.We got there around midnight and the Cardinal was due something after 1AM. It was a small station, brightly lit with one very confused ticket agent on duty. Someone forgot to tell him we were coming. The man in front of me got the last roomette so we were upgraded to a bedroom. I would think you could check with Amtrak and find out if it is still manned and also about the lockers in Chicago. They used to have a manned baggage room just off the great hall but I don't know if it's still there. Good luck. As to the exhaustion factor I think only you can judge that. Springfield will involve a fair amt of walking and I don't know how much rest you get via coach.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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I've caught the nocturnal eastbound Cardinal from Indianapolis before. July 2002. I had arrived in town as a volunteer driver for one of the competing DCI drum and bugle corps but my 'tour of duty' ended in Indy. I moved my luggage from the bus in the RCA Dome parking lot next door over to the rail/bus station about 11:30pm.
The station is pretty much as train lady describes. Small, decently lit, ticket agent on duty but the folks who get the Indy job seem to be on the bottom of the information food chain.
I'll add that there was a small desk at the door manned by a police officer when I was there. He was checking to make sure that all who entered had legitimate reason to come inside.
I'd be more concerned that the train would be a couple of hours late than over safety in this station.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Well, based on all your valuable info--thanks so much for it all!--I've revised the itinerary I had printed above (and have now deleted, deleting more than I intended up there--sorry about that!) and decided to splurge on another night in Indianapolis. This will make the trip a lot easier and solve all but one of my concerns from the earlier itinerary. I will now leave Sun, get to Albany and catch the LSL, arr Chicago in AM, catch Ann Rutledge and get to Springfield 7:30 PM-ish Monday, stay in Springfield 2 nights, see more of Springfield Wednesday before catching the later bus/train combo to Indianapolis, arriving in IND at about 11:30PM Wednesday. I'll also stay in IND Thursday and Friday, so 2 full days there to see the city. I'll then catch the morning bus back to Chicago and start the Cardinal from there later Saturday, hopefully getting a decent seat since I'm starting at the beginning. I'll get to Charlottesville Sunday late afternoon or later, and crash there near the university. Then I'll leave for DC on a morning bus Monday, spend time there, then catch a regional to NYP, stay with a friend and have dinner there, then get home on Tuesday. It's a longer trip than I intended, but it sounds like fun! And I like the idea of a presidential trip, with Springfield AND Charlottesville (though I won't be visiting Monticello, but I've been there before).
The only concern I still have is with regard to luggage in Chicago--I sure hope those lockers aren't full so that I can leave it someplace as I go through with my lowly coach tickets. I will check all this out when I go through Chicago on my western trip (before all this) but then I will have a sleeper so I can use the Metropolitan Lounge, tres P-O-S-H (port out, starboard home?) (actually I am going coach on the Zephyr, couldn't afford sleepers, but I will be coming in on a sleeper on the Capitol Ltd so I can still use the ML)
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sojourner ---on my last trip through Chicago this past May I had checked through a large suitcase from Springfield, MA to Chicago. When I went up to pick it up there were several people storing luggage in that room in large lockers and the baggage attendant was taking care of them. (These lockers appeared larger than those down in the main waiting room.)Hopefully someone here has used these lockers in the baggage room and can give you an idea of the cost. Now you have got my interest piqued and I have spent some time poking around Springfield, IL tourist sites and have sent for the tourist brochure offered on one of them. Looks like a neat place to visit -- and that Trolley sure is great for those of us who do not care to rent cars and yet wince at the cost of taxi rides to see it all. Dee
Posts: 460 | From: North Central CT | Registered: May 2004
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If you can get to Old Salem Village do so. that is where Lincoln spent early years and we both found it very interesting. I hope it's still in operation as it was 5 years ago and things change. We also went to the dana-thomas house and were totally underwhelmed.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Train Lady, I checked on it (it's called NEWSalem Village, actually--Old might be the one with witches!!!), and it's definitely still operating, a state historic site and quite a big deal, www.lincolnsnewsalem.com. But in March, when I am planning to go (because the Cardinal environs won't be "leafed in" yet), it's only open Wed-Sun, and since I'll be in Springfield on Tuesday and part of Wednesday (I have to catch that 4PM train to Indianapolis), I probably won't get there without a car. In fact, even were I there the full day, I doubt there are buses that time of year midweek--New Salem is apparently 20 miles from Springfield.
Still, though I'm sorry to miss it--it sounds lovely!--there seems to be plenty to see in Springfield itself. Most sites are open both Tuesday and Wednesday, even in March (there are a lot of Sunday and Monday closures--Dee, you may want to take note of this). Although the Dana-Thomas House is closed Tuesday--I was thinking of going Wednesday but with your comment, Train Lady, I may not bother with that one!
In addition to the various Lincoln sites, there are the State Capitol & Museum, the Executive Mansion (open Tuesdays as well as Thursdays and Saturday mornings), Vachel Lindsay's House, the Edwards House (apparently the oldest surviving house in Springfield; exhibits art too, I think), and the Lawrence Memorial Library, a working library designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. All but the library are right downtown.
There is also something called the Museum of Funeral Customs, which sounds kinda neat to me. However, this too is not right downtown, so I hope getting to see it is not too much of an undertaking.
(groan groan)
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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sojourner,you are right. It is New Salem. I couldn't figure out why I have the visitors Guide to old Salem with the book Lincoln's New Salem and the State Historic Guide to New Salem.so I took it off the shelf and reread them only to discover Old Salem Guide is the one in North Carolina and somehow got stuck in the wrong book. The book is very interesting and has drawings of the various houses ,stores etc in the village. If you are interested it is published by Southern University Press. Po Box 3697, Carbondale, Ill.author is Benjamin P. Thomas a Lifetime Lincoln Scholar. BTW on my guide it says that it's open all year except certain holidays.I guess it has been changed. If you can get the book you will get the feeling that you were there. Our impression of the dana-thomas house was ho hum. About 1/2 way through we looked at each other, nodded and headed for the exit. It gave us both a feeling of gloom and supression. Others may feel differently.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Old Salem, NC, eh? I haven't been there either. I guess the Salem I have been to is Old Old Salem! I have also been through Salem, OR, but did not stop--I think that one is named for Old Old Salem too. Goodness, there are almost as many Salems in the US as there are Springfields!!!
Dee, a few other interesting things I've discovered:
Springfield has what it now calls the Lincoln Depot, old train staton from which he departed. What is sad is that it only seems to be open Apr-Aug, so in March I won't see it. But since I'm going in March to catch the Cardinal, you'd think I could get special dispensation or something to see a Train Depot!!!
Route 66 goes through and several bars, diners, etc, have the usual memorabilia.
Springfield is noted for something called horsehoes. I am still not sure what it is, but it appears to be edible.
Chili and corn dogs are also local delicacies.
And speaking of food, Springfield is where the Donner Party started. Hmmm, maybe I should be continuing on to the California Zephyr . . . .
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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I think you would enjoy Old Salem. We explored it when we stayed overnight in Winston Salem, NC. I know how you feel about special dispensation. We especially routed a trip to Denver so we could stop in Missouri to see the Truman library and grave site. We got there to discover it was closed for a year for renovation. Triple A hadn't told us/. We found a number of other irate people there.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Old Salem, NC is one of the earliest settlements in North Carolina. The earliest settlers were Moravian and by the mid-1700's they had developed a remarkable self-sustaining community (as if they had much other choice) complete with bakery, dairy, candlemakers, etc., etc.
My father's doctoral dissertation thirty-five years ago was a descriptive catalog of the musical instruments housed in the museum (many not on public display) at Old Salem. As a career music educator he was fascinated by the early use of brass choirs in Moravian worship services. From 1968 to 1971 my father made many trips to Old Salem to photograph and examine these early wind instruments.
But to return to topic, Old Salem is a worthy destination......similar to Colonial Williamsburg but without the hype.....and can be accessed from the Amtrak system via a connecting bus to Winston-Salem from the train station in High Point, itself a remarkably restored building.
(Gee, can you guys tell that I once spent time as one of the North Carolina DOT Vounteer Train Hosts? I rode round-trip Raleigh to Charlotte on the Piedmont once a month helping answer questions about what there was to do along the route of North Carolina's Amtrak trains!)
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David, We saw most of Old Salem and enjoyed it "muchly". Unfortunately it began to rain and when it got heavy we left . I hope to get back one day. There was another moravian "place" nearby and I can't remember the name. It seems to me it was a church which they were excavating at the time. Do you happen to know what I am talking about? The rain was too heavy for us to explore that.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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I maintain an annual membership to Old Sturbridge Village in MA. (Just a leisurely half hour ride on lovely country roads from where I live.)This appears to be a similar recreated village. I would definitely think this a must see and worth actually renting a car (which I rarely do) for a day. From the looks it would require a full day for this place alone.
Hmmmm ---- need to rethink my Spring trip.
So many things and places to see --- I need to live to be 100 !!
Posts: 460 | From: North Central CT | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by train lady: David, We saw most of Old Salem and enjoyed it "muchly". Unfortunately it began to rain and when it got heavy we left . I hope to get back one day. There was another moravian "place" nearby and I can't remember the name. It seems to me it was a church which they were excavating at the time. Do you happen to know what I am talking about? The rain was too heavy for us to explore that.
I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with that. We've been living in Western North Carolina (a lovely area) for the last eight years. I've not been an active Train Host in that time and am kind of 'out-of-touch' with the latest developments. It sounds fascinating though. One might want to do an on-line search for 'Waldensian' or 'Waldensia' but that's a guess. You'll surely find a link to a bakery founded by the Moravians but who knows what else.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David, I found it!!! It's called Bethabara Park and is on the edge of Winston=Salem. For some reason my travel journel for that trip is missing(I am sure I will find it when I look for something else.) so I went to Google and checked out Moravian church and there it was. I did think it was something with a b. At any rate it still sounds very interesting. Is there a way to get from DC to Asheville via Amtrak? Last summer we had to go to Charleston and drive with family from there. They have move permanently to Ashville now so we are looking for a new way. They could meet us in Columbia but the train gets there in the wee hours so that's out.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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The NC DOT initially studied the possibility of bringing Amtrak service to Asheville in 1994 and progress........excruciatingly slow progress....has been made. State funds have even been used to renovate the old railroad stations in Old Fort, Marion, and Morganton in anticipation of a passenger train from Asheville to Salisbury 'someday'.
Closest Amtrak station to Asheville is Spartanburg, SC. Closest manned station is Greenville, SC. These two cities are about a 90 minute drive from Asheville. For an overnight return trip relatives could drop you off in the evening at Greenville to catch the Crescent. That's half the distance Columbia is and the train, if on-time, is going to leave before midnight.
The next best bet would be to take the Carolinian to and from Greensboro, NC. Actually, the Carolinian would be my first choice for coming to Asheville. The drive GRO-AVL is not quite two and a half hours......getting you to Asheville well before midnight if the train is within two hours of being on-time.
Finally, if you are relying on train to bus, you're best bet would be one of the two daily Greyhounds from Asheville to/from Spartanburg connecting to the Crescent there. You are looking at a cab ride between stations but it is a short trip.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I think if relying on train to bus you might be better off overnighting, probably in Charlotte, NC. It's something I recall toying with, but now I'm waiting for the Salisbury train (hahahah)
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sojourner: I think if relying on train to bus you might be better off overnighting, probably in Charlotte, NC. It's something I recall toying with, but now I'm waiting for the Salisbury train (hahahah)
Same here!
When we moved to the mountains in 1998 I had hoped that we would have an Asheville passenger train within five years so that I could resume Train Hosting on it.
2006 and still waiting. Sigh.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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What needs to happen is a complete rebuild over Saluda. It wouldn't be cheap but I believe that you could build about 17 miles of new railorad from below Tryon to just north of the crest about 4 miles south of Hendersonville and get the grade to 2.00% or slightly under. It would have about a two mile tunnel under the ridge that Saluda itself is on and a major bridge over the Green River Canyon, but it appears quite feasible from an engineering perspective, not sure about the economics, but it would actually be better as a grade than Old Fort to Ridgecrest, so instead of diverting traffic from Saluda to the Salilsbury line it would make diverting frieght from Salisbury to Saluda appear reasonable. (Better because the grade would be much less curvey and because the highest elevation between Asheville and Spartanburg is about 300 feet lower than the highest elevation between Asheville and Salisbury.)
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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You have a remarkable grasp of both the geographic realities of railroading in the south as well as the 'traditional' passenger train routes which were being operated in the late 60's just prior to Amtrak.
This is a topic you and I have touched on before BUT what I would MOST like would be to see the Saluda line reopened (by whatever means) and Asheville passenger service restored in the form of a train to Columbia, SC with through coaches and sleeper on to Miami via the Silver Star. This would enable a comfortable overnight ride from home to the in-laws living in Mickey Mouse country. Moreover, I think that the highest potential market for an Asheville train would be hauling tourists between Asheville and Florida. There are alot of Floridians who use the mountains here to escape the summer heat. Many of them shouldn't really be doing that much driving these days either.
Economics......doubtful that Saluda will ever see a major rebuild such as what you propose. However, I could see the currently out-of-service section being restored to ease Norfolk Southern freight congestion. I can even envision some sort of directional running where most through freight would move eastward DOWN Saluda Mountain and westward UP Old Fort Mountain.
As for the passenger train, since that happens only with support from the NC DOT and three of the stations on the Old Fort line have already been restored, our only hope for passenger service to Asheville is going to be from Salisbury (where it would connect with the Carolinian and Piedmont, also state supported trains) via Old Fort Mountain.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I have also thought that the connection Asheville to Columbia to Silver Star to Florida is a good idea. While we are at it, should also throw in a Charlotte to Columbia connection. These two give you essentially a resurrection of the old Skyland Special, but actually quite a bit faster due to being on the ex SAL south of Columbia instead of the now abandoned Southern RR line.
As a railroad oriented civil engineer, I have had a life long facination with railroads in the mountains, and what is the top of the list for Southern mountain railroading but Saluda. I have done a little armchair study on this thing. If you are interested, drop me an email at ghharris44 <at> yahoo
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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