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» RAILforum » Passenger Trains » Amtrak » City of New Orleans Derailment-Cause Found

   
Author Topic: City of New Orleans Derailment-Cause Found
JONATHON
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Go here:
http://www.trainweb.com/cgi-bin/top/tw_do.cgi?derailments/2004d06a.html

Thats alot of damage

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ


Posts: 989 | From: DIAMOND BAR CA. U.S. | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
UncleBuck44
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I would have guessed that someone put a quarter on the track.

Thats a big "no-no" in railroading.


Posts: 547 | From: St. Louis, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JONATHON
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Why no qarters?,, what'll that do?

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ


Posts: 989 | From: DIAMOND BAR CA. U.S. | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MPALMER
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Destroying US currency. Felony.
Posts: 874 | From: South Bay (LA County), Calif, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JONATHON
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oh, what about pennys?

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ


Posts: 989 | From: DIAMOND BAR CA. U.S. | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
George Harris
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"Cause of the wreck of the City of New Orleans, Train 58(06APR) is believed to be a 2 1/2 inch piece of rail that was added in January 2004 to the east rail (engineer's side) to replace a section with a crushed rail head. Under changes in temperature, compressive forces in that rail combined with poor condition of ties caused that rail to roll outward under train."

Don't run too far with this one. I would not be surprised if turns out to be a track caused derailment, but the reason above does not seem right. The article did not give a source for this statement, but several things seem strange. Of course, if quoted from a non-railroad oriented source, it could have been stated correctly to begin with and then garbled beyond all recognition before printing. A few reasons I say this:

1. You would never add a 2.5 inch piece of rail and leave it in track. If such a piece is put in to get a train past pending a permanent fix, a slow order is required. Was that supposed to be 2.5 feet? That does not seem too likely either. Usually the minimum length you would put in for a repair is much longer than this. Therefore, this statement is so far off the normal of what I know I can not guess from it what was really done.

2. Usually an increase in temperature will cause inadequately restrained track to buckle, not one rail to roll. By buckle I mean the whole piece of track moves sideways in a short curve. If only one rail has a high compressive force, it might lift up out of the plates and buckle by itself, but that I have never seen. The tieplates and spikes system is a lot better than it looks to be to the uninitiated.

3. Given that this had to be class 4 track (allowing 80p/60f speeds), tie conditions bad enough to permit rail rolloever seem unlikely, in fact I would say unallowable. Rollover is usually a low speed track porblem. Also, it appears to have been on straight track, so rollover due to high lateral force on the curve seems unlikely.

4. Crushed rail head? Over how much length? If short enough that a 2.5 inch piece replaced it, it was probably a wheel burn. On the other hand, the location is unlikely for that, being as it is straight and level and not near a turnout. Crushed rail head normally occur on the inside rail of curves where heavily loaded trains move at much less than the balance speed for the curve. Again, not the situation here. If from "pipe", that is usually in the web, but it still results in a lowered head, but this is usually several feet in length when it occurs.

("Pipe" is internal seperation in the middle of the rail resulting from incomplete fusion of the steel in the rolling process. It is now very rare. It is called pipe because when the rail crushes down there is an internal longitudinal hole in the web or head.)

Quaters!?! It used to be pennies. Inflation, I guess. The story is that if you place a penny on the top of the rail it will derail the train. This is a very grey haired elderly urban legend. Will not happen, ever. Supposedly under just wrong conditions, the train wheel will shoot the penny out like a bullet. While I can not say will not happen, I will say never heard of it really happening. The reality is that the penny will be flattened into a long oval, and under a short train will still be on the top of the rail after the train is gone. Under a long train it might end up being off the rail, but will still be very close to where it was put. No damage to wheel or rail results from this as the metal in the coin is much softer than the than in the wheel and rail. As to the "felony", the FBI has better things to do than go after people mangling coins. Since our coinage no longer has any significant inherent value in the metal, not sure the law is still even there.


Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geoff Mayo
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I agree, 2.5" is too short. I've seen lengths of something like 6' replaced though.

If it is illegal to mangle coins, what about all those souvenir coin crushers, where you put a quarter and a penny in, and the penny comes out oval and stamped with your choice of imprint? Surely those would be illegal too?

Last year I was at the Moffat Tunnel and saw several people placing coins on the rails. Trains rolled over at up to 40mph without any problem of course. The biggest problem is finding the coin amongst the ballast afterwards.

Geoff M.


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RRCHINA
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Once again Mr. Harris has furnished a very
good technical analysis and explanation that
should serve to inform and educate those of us with little or no actual RR experience.

It is certainly an asset to this site to have someone with his background and ability to communicate effectively on board. While we will have to wait for more specific info to define what caused this accident Mr. Harris' analysis indicates how difficult it is to qickly answer the causal question.


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MontanaJim
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i am sure a small rock could derail a train though, right? i saw some kids the other day putting rocks on the tracks. told them to cut it out
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JONATHON
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A rock wouldnt Derail any Train, but is a danger to the person who puts it there, when a rock go under the wheels, it gets crushed, but unlike a penny, it shaters and can be thrown in any derection,, I dont know about pennys, but a rock could result in a scene simuler to the one in the movie "Final Destanation"

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ


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UncleBuck44
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quote:
Originally posted by JONATHON:
but a rock could result in a scene simuler to the one in the movie "Final Destanation"



If I understood correctly then that would be cool.


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JONATHON
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Not if your the guy who put it there!

lol

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ


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TheBriz09
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I don't think rocks normally derail trains - I remember riding the Chicago Metra trains one day and we heard loud noises outside. Turns out the train was just chewing up gravel. The conductor came by and goes, "Oh, looks like the track gang put down too much gravel again." So I would say rocks on the tracks are not a very big concern.

Edit: Jonathon is correct, however, in that it is certainly dangerous to anybody standing nearby.

[This message has been edited by TheBriz09 (edited 04-13-2004).]


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George Harris
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Derailing trains is much more difficult than it looks, and it can be somewhat like starting a fires. When you want to start one, sometimes it seems like a gallon of kerosene and a blowtorch won't do it, but when you don't want to, one hot cigarette butt will burn 10,000 acres.

In early January near Donner Pass, the CZ derailed in part by riding up on ice. (Most of the train stayed on the rails and was pulled back from the derailed cars. Low speed event, no one seemed to notice anything except delay and the cars getting cold because they were detached from the engines to be pulled back.) There have been cases where run away freight cars have jumped over derails and kept going. It can actually be more difficult to derail a fast moving train than a slow one. A fast train is more likely to break through or bounce over what is put in the way and come back down on the rails.

As Jonathon says, small rocks will not derail a train, but they can be hazardous to those standing nearby. In fact, when unloading new ballast, the back wheels on the ballast car are frequently riding up on and crushing the rocks that end up landing on the rail head. At the low speed flying pieces are usually not much problem.


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espeefoamer
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If putting pennies on the tracks is a federal crime,I guess I'm looking to spend a long time in Leavenworth.
I put a lot of pennies on the track when I was younger.

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Trust Jesus,Ride Amtrak.


Posts: 288 | From: Fullerton,ca,USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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