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I'm talking about Rep. Corrine Brown (D-FL), an outspoken supporter of passenger rail, unlike my Rep.
Here's a posting by someone at the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers site:
"Today I attended a Congressional Hearing in Miami of the House Subcommittee on Railroads chaired by Corrine Brown. Rep Mica and Oberstar were also on committee. Subject was High Speed Rail Intermodal Connections After panel gave their presentations (as you have seen on C Span). Chairman Brown opened meeting for questioning of the witness panel by members of the committee. First she addressed Drew Galloway Asst VP of Amtrak and said she wanted to make a statement to him, not a question. She then went on to say (paraphrased) ; I want the SUNSET restored New Orleans Jacksonville Orlando. This train is vital to transcontinental transportation and a important safety backup for evacuation in a disaster. I do not want the train run like Amtrak did before with long layover at @ 2AM in New Orleans, or with late trains. I am holding a subcommittee hearing in Jacksonville in a few weeks at which the SUNSET will be a major item of discussion, and look forward to Amtrak appearing. We must get the train back, one way or another. After her comments, Galloway was silent. I could have stood up and cheered, but held myself back. NARP will notify us of date and place of Jax hearing. Stay tuned."
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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It would appear that Rep Brown's (D-FL3) District would have only tangential interest in whether Sunset East is restored. As Mike once reported here at the forum, the Auto Train Sanford facility is actually in Rep. Mica's (R-FL7) District.
Incidentally, while Rep. Brown has always been "pro passenger rail", it is noteworthy how Rep Mica was changed stripes in the current Congress. Lest we forget, he was as much a "hawk' on LD's (kill 'em all EXCEPT Auto Train) as am I (they're a political necessity but little else), now you would think he is almost 'pro rail'.
I continue to note that 1) Amtrak is not interested in restoring Sunset East and 2) it will need additional support beyond a rant from one Congresswoman if such is to be the case. Also, I continue to hold that the best strategy to have the service restored is to establish Amtrak discontinued a route without 180 Day Notice under ARAA '97. Amtrak's defense of an "emergency' remains quite weak in view of that CSX is now providing service over the line to all on-line industries without disruption.
However, a restoration would simply represent a "slap on the wrist' and would not alter the established fact that Sunset East was the weakest link in the LD system and provided no needed political largess for Amtrak (they still get funded, don't they?).
However, let us be mindful that even if Amtrak is required to restore the service, such would result in a train restored for 181 days that would resemble the consist of the one-Coach KEYCARD and which, save a joyride, the die hards would not even want.
Finally, lest we forget that Amtrak has never been denied permission to discontinue a service under either RPSA 70 or ARAA '97.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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Gnarly as his words make me feel (I'd love to ride the full Sunset), I have to admit GBN is right.
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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GBN may be right, but we all know that politicians don't always do the right thing. I wouldn't sell Rep. Brown's "rantings" too short here; she carries a big stick. If I were a betting man, I would bet that NOL-JAX is served by Amtrak BEFORE JAX-MIA over the FEC, test train or not (or maybe, who knows, they'll extend the Sunset to MIA via the FEC at the same time and kill two Florida birds with one stone).
By the way, GBN, I know you realize that her district includes a significant portion of Greater Jacksonville. Don't think she's worried about the impact in Sanford as much as getting the Sunset service restored for her constituents.
palmland Member # 4344
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Rep. Brown was always the subject of much amusement when we lived in Jax. But she is enthusiastic and passionate about her views - she says what she believes, unlike most politicians who say only what they think the public wants to hear, according to the latest poll.
If the Sunset was restored, it would make far more sense to revive it as an extended CONO train to FL, as has been discussed. A one seat ride from Chicago to FL would have a lot more potential than a Transcon Sunset limping into FL.
Now what would be the most useful train, is an Atlanta/Macon - Jax train with connections to southern FL (maybe via an extended Palmetto). I-75 seems much more crowded than the I-95 route and Atlanta is certainly an under served market.
Back in 'the good old days' there was only two trains NOL-JAX (one of them an all stops local). Atlanta-Jax had at least 6 daily trains via the ACL and SRY plus the very popular Nancy Hanks II from Atlanta to Savannah.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Well, look how someone (who needs a spelling lesson) has petitioned The White House:
I'll be a nice guy and hold my SM-62 (for the moment).
sojourner Member # 3134
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There is nothing pro rail about Mica, he is a phony baloney. If it were up to him, there wouldn't be meals on the LD trains.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Ms. Sojourner, note my pro rail comment was made when the 111th Congress was in session and Rep. Mica was simply a member on the House Transportation Committee. With the Republican majority attained for the 112th in the House, he is again Chairman, and will continue as such during the 113th.
Like you, I hold that his attacks on Amtrak Food & Beverage is about like tearing the sofa apart looking for pennies (OK; maybe dimes).
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: Now what would be the most useful train, is an Atlanta/Macon - Jax train with connections to southern FL (maybe via an extended Palmetto). I-75 seems much more crowded than the I-95 route and Atlanta is certainly an under served market.
Back in 'the good old days' there was only two trains NOL-JAX (one of them an all stops local). Atlanta-Jax had at least 6 daily trains via the ACL and SRY plus the very popular Nancy Hanks II from Atlanta to Savannah.
The catch is that to put on an Atlanta -Jacksonville train by any route would require spending a lot of money. The ACL route, which does not go through Macon is very congested is fairly curvey and was never fast. The NS route through Valdosta is also quite congested. The route that NS would agree to passenger service on, the ex-CofG route Atlanta to Macon and the ex-Southern route to Jesup, then on CSX is unsignaled and probably would need quite a bit of trackwork as well. At least, it is mostly straight south of Macon.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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George, all other comments aside, I understand CSX took the Katrina opportunity to upgrade the route between New Orleans and Jacksonville (or parts thereof). I also know parts were already 79mph anyway. So would there be any significant time difference for a train taking that route now compared to pre-Katrina?
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: ...and will continue as such during the 113th.
Mica, headed into his 11th term, currently heads the House transportation chair but is not allowed to continue in that role next session due to “term limits” adopted by Republicans nearly two decades ago. Mica had joined in efforts to change that rule, but was unsuccessful and U.S. Rep. Bill Shuster, R-Penn., now will take over, according to a list of chairmen released today by House Speaker John Boehner
Oh well, even if assuredly they were his, the Treasury will have a few less dollar bills lost to pyrotechnics in the Committee Room.
With Rep. Shuster (R-PA9) at the throttle, there may yet be a second HAR-PGH frequency.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Amtrak has appeared to have won a victory with the Sunset East discontinuance that I honestly thought would result in grief when some authority was going to require the service be restored.
That Amtrak discontinued all service over a route that required 180 Day Notice under ARAA '97 with apparent impunity means that Amtrak at their prerogative can discontinue service over any route. While this hardly suggests that a stealth order of Adios drumhead signs for every Long Distance train has been placed, it does mean that if a train is a hopeless loser and that a route has lost its "political capital", it could be gone at will.
In the case of Sunset East, it's "capital" in the name of former US Senator Lott left "The Hill" for K Street. Passengers? it never had any. Operations? a nightmare; it wasn't even close to being drive time competitive and missed traffic potential with its bypass of Pensacola and other "Redneck Riviera" tourist destinations. Maintenance? when it operated through to Miami, it resulted in labor unrest when Amtrak flew in (and lodged) mechanical personnel from wherever (LA or Chi) displacing Hialeah workers.
It's gone, folks. The "phantom" ORL-NOL train required to maintain the ruse of "temporarily suspended" no longer "runs" resulting in the release of one equipment set. Operating and On-Board employees initially displaced have long since been assigned to other runs or have left Amtrak, and once again, away from some small advocacy circles, Sunset East is simply a historical footnote.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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I'm not pleased it's gone. I never had a chance to check the entire Sunset Limited route off my bucket list. (How's that for a myopic remark from a railfan who thinks he sees the whole world from his backyard?)
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Well, I must acknowledge that it is certainly implicit in my immediate posting that I'm glad Sunset East is gone, that Amtrak management exercised prerogative, and it appears their action has been sustained.
We are not addressing public health and safety where I believe regulation is quite appropriate; we are addressing a service that, outside the pleasure travel segment (OK; a journalist looking for a story), was as good as useless and of no value whatever.
I further acknowledge that I do look at railroad affairs from an industry perspective. I am a former low-level management employee (followed by twenty one years of fully licensed practice as a CPA through my own firm) with a Class I and a stakeholder with long equity positions in three Class I's (CSX, KSU, UNP; sold NSC earlier this year). To me, any Long Distance train remunerated under what I believe to be existing contractual provisions (bargain basement), represents an encroachment upon an industry asset, namely track capacity, without appropriate compensation. I also think the industry has done a "more than adequate" job of honoring a management mistake, made under a degree of duress, now over forty years ago. In their desperation for relief, the industry lost sight that politicians are like the mob; let them into your affairs, good luck getting them out.
Just some thoughts prompted by Mr. Kisor's immediate.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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My immediate was intended to be ironic. (Of course irony closes on Saturday night.)
Ocala Mike Member # 4657
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quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor:
(Of course irony closes on Saturday night.)
Henry, "Satire is what closes on Saturday Night" - Playwright George S. Kaufman
"Irony is an insult conveyed in the form of a compliment." - Edwin P. Whipple
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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Mr. Ocala sir: Thank you for the correction of the satire quote. The irony quote, however true, is a bit on the snarky side, wouldn't you say? (I was not my intention to launch a Snark of any kind toward GBN! I was just needling the members of this forum who think their corner of the world mirrors the rest. They know who they are. Maybe.)
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by Geoff Mayo: George, all other comments aside, I understand CSX took the Katrina opportunity to upgrade the route between New Orleans and Jacksonville (or parts thereof). I also know parts were already 79mph anyway. So would there be any significant time difference for a train taking that route now compared to pre-Katrina?
In a word, no. The line may have been in somewhat better condition, but the speed limits were already at their practical or legal maximums. So far as I know, there were no additions in lengthened sidings, any second main added, or otehr improvements.
The line with its 79 mph speed limit on signaled portions and 59 mph speed limit on unsignaled portions already had higher speed limits than in pre-Amtrak days. In the days of the Gulf Wind, the signaled parts were at 70 mph and the unsignaled parts at 55 mph. Also, between the early 1960's and the start of the Sunset east, several low speed drawbridges, generally 10 or 15 mph, that had long wood trestle approaches to the draw span were replaced with concrete trestles and better drawspans, I think with 45 mph speed limits, and in the case of the Escambia Bay bridge just east of Pensacola a higher bridge that eliminated the need for a drawspan. This last replaced a 10 mph bridge with a 59 mph bridge.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Thanks George. As we know, the schedule was lengthened by hours in its later years anyway, making it even less attractive - though maybe the timekeeping improved.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The Gulf Wind schedule was lengthened in its last years due to lower speed limits on the line as well as loss of interest in getting the train over the road. Don't know exactly when and to what, but as an example, the Memphis branch speed limit for passenger trains was dropped from 59 mph ot 50 mph somewhere between 1962 and 1965. (The last passenger train on that route died in 1967 if I remember correctly.)
System wide as piggyback and tri-level auto traffic rose, the maximum superelevation was reduced from 6 inches to 4 inches maximum on all curves systemwide with any sort of ballasting operation after around 1960, so curve speed limits also declined, althought that had very little effect on Gulf Coast lines.
palmland Member # 4344
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Well those who know me, know my affinity for the L&N in general and the Memphis branch in particular and will understand my interest in George's comments. It prompted me to dig out my L&N ETT's as I had not realized there was a change in the speed limits.
Interestingly the ETT of 1956 shows the speed limit as 55. It then increased to 59 where it stayed until 1964. Sometime between then and 1966 it dropped to 50 as George noted. I can only speculate that the increase to 59 was the result of government mandated speed limits - 60 used for non signaled track. In reality the 55 probably didn't mean much in those days as the crew was more interested in staying on time than worrying about a speed limit.
The change to 50 probably coincided with the discontinuance of the remnants of the Memphis section of the Pan American in 1965. The night train 101/104 lingered on until the spring of 1968. Helped no doubt by the large amount of express shipped from the Acme boot company in Clarksville in those days before FedEx.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Relating to this topic is the notation of thirteen crew members on board 91(28) - the train involved in the fatal grade X-ing incident at Pine Castle, FL being discussed at another topic. This means Engr, Asst, Condr, Asst, 2 TA/S, 1 TA (Coach), 1 LSA (Lng), and the remaining 5 in the Diner.
By comparasion, a Corridor train handling same would have Engr (only), Condr, Asst, LSA. A commercial aircraft handling 150 PAX, such as an A-320 or 737-800 would have 2 FO, 3 FA,
No wonder LD's are such hopeless losers; no wonder the Dining Car is in Rep. Mica's X-hairs - and surely no differennt with his Republican successor whoever that may be.
George Harris Member # 2077
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Palmland:
The NC&StL Nashivill-Memphis was CTC throughout with a 60 mph speed limit. After the L&N takeover the through freight went to McKenzie and down the L&N Memphis branch, which was both shorter and straighter, the remnant of the City of Memphis was dropped, and the signal system removed west of Bruceton. All that was left on the line west of Bruceton after these changes was the overnight train and a local, so there was hardly any need for signals.
The first passenger train I ever rode was the City of Memphis between Memphis and Jackson TN, shortly before my 5th birthday. Not only is the first train I ever rode long gone, so is the track on which it ran.
palmland Member # 4344
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George, hard to believe the changes we've seen. It was a sad day when the L&N cut the Memphis Branch with the removal of the bridges near Big Sandy, TN. But I guess we should be thankful segments of both lines remain. And, in the case of the L&N segment, RJ Corman has certainly been a better operator of the line than CSX - new customers, distribution center, much improved maintenance.
I do remember seeing NC&StL geeps on the night train at Clarksville shortly after the merger. It was pretty exciting to have something other than those plain ol' FP-7's. Sigh.
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