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I personally, never got to ride in the single level dome cars. From people who have that I've talked to, have said they enjoyed them very much. Why not bring them back, whether that means restoring old ones or converting some amfleet cars or heritage coaches?
ehbowen Member # 4317
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I rode in a Heritage Vista Dome only once, back in the days when Amtrak's Capitol Limited combined with the Broadway Limited west of Pittsburgh (I was taking the Broadway from Philadelphia to Chicago). It was a memorable experience. Why do we not see them today? Well, any route which can operate Vista Domes can also operate Superliners, and Amtrak's philosophy is that the double-decker Superliner equipment is preferred from a standpoint of cost efficiency and fleet standardization.
Unfortunately, we will probably not see Vista-Domes return until and unless there is both adequate funding and a competitive marketplace for passenger rail. Under the current government hegemony, neither condition appears likely. Were a certain forum member appointed US dictator-for-life, however....naaah, I won't go there right now. Not the time for campaign speeches....
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Actually, Mr. Canuck, you are as close as is any USA resident to having a ride in a scheduled Dome Car. All you need do is get a passport and make it "round the Lake' to Toronto and there is The Canadian.
Having ridden many a pre-Amtrak mile in Dome Cars, the Budd built 'short', even if it had all the interior aesthetics of an OR, did have the best of what it was all about - visibility.
Here is all you ever want or need to know about Dome Cars:
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I, too, missed out riding in the single-level dome cars and hope some day to ride the Canadian and scratch that itch.
The natural home for these cars is on the western routes where they originated and became selling points for the trains that included them. The privately owned domes can occasionally be seen today attached to the end of trains like the Coast Starlight and California Zephyr.
But there are problems with including any single-level cars in trains with Superliner consists: 1) You can only pass between Superliner cars (with an exception I'll note below) on the upper level, which limits where a dome can be placed in the consist. The ones that run on the rear of Superliner trains are isolated, in terms of passenger access, from the rest of the train, so Amtrak passengers can't get to the dome, nor can the private car passengers get into the Amtrak portion of the train. 2) A second problem is that a large part of the dome's appeal is the ability of passengers to see forward. Cyrus Osborn of General Motors' Electro-Motive Division is generally credited with the idea for building dome cars after riding through Colorado's Glenwood Canyon in a D&RGW diesel and wanting passengers to get that view. No train ever carried more domes than the original California Zephyr, and Glenwood Canyon was one of the scenic highlights of that train's route. Placing a Superliner forward of a dome car blocks the forward view because its roof is level with the top of the dome.
However (assuming sufficient dome cars could be rounded up at a price Amtrak could afford, a big if), I think a dome car would be a big hit on western trains. It could be placed between the transition sleeper and the baggage car, which is a single-level car from the same streamliner era as the domes, and would not block the view. The transition sleeper's passageway to cars behind it is on the upper level, but the forward passageway is on the lower level -- that's the transition -- so that personnel may move between the single-level baggage car and the main train. There would be a forward view from the dome as well as access from all parts of the train.
There might be objections from sleeper passengers to the increased foot traffic past their rooms when sleepers are placed at the head end of such a train, but otherwise I think it would work well.
gp35 Member # 3971
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Amtrak has extra single level coaches sitting collecting dust. Sunset could go daily using those old coaches. However Amtrak is struck on using Superliners on Sunset.
notelvis Member # 3071
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There are a few dome riding opportunities other than VIA that I know of (and there are likely more).....
In no particular order -
1) The Grand Canyon Railway has a dome car in service on their Williams, AZ to South Rim excursions. (64 miles each way)
2) The Santa Fe Southern Railway operates a dome on their passenger excursions (18 miles each way) between Santa Fe and Lamy, NM.
3) The Royal Gorge Scenic Railway in Canon City, CO operates full length 'super domes'.....a great ride but with less forward vision than the half dome cars.....on their 12 mile each way trip.
4) The Tennessee Central Railway Museum in Nashville operates periodic weekend excursions with a dome to Watertown (40ish miles each way) or Cookeville (90 miles each way) over the Nashville and Eastern Railroad.
5) The 'Friends of the 261' in the Twin Cities operates a vintage Milwaukee Road Super Dome (at EXTREME premium fare) on periodic steam excursions near Minneapolis and St. Pual.
6)The Algoma Central in Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. operates a dome on their Agawa Canyon excursion train.
In most cases these domes are premium fare but well worth it if you've never experienced a true dome car. Guys.....if you've not been on one, search these out and go for it.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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A Superliner alternative to a dome might be to revive the concept of the observation car on the tail end. An observation deck with glass on all sides would offer a spectacular, unobstructed view out the rear. Half of the upper level could be a first-class lounge akin to the Pacific Parlour Car, while the rest of the car would be sleepers.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Mr. Toy, your observation car idea would be fun when the train runs in reverse, such as in Denver Union Station.
20th Century Member # 2196
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Tha Alaska RR and Via Rail have some single level cars with glass from one side to the other. Also the Whistler(?) had those those cars.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
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Simply put,
Amtrak needs a capital appropriation from Congress. That hasn't been coming for a while.
No Bucks, No Buck Rogers!
Doodlebug Member # 4564
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I like Mr. Toy's idea of a Superliner observation car. Passengers would love to sit back there where they could watch the scenery roll past, and they'd like it even more if they were within a few steps of refreshments. Superliner trains -- all Amtrak trains -- with a suitably dramatic tail end also would look better than the chopped-off snake appearance they have today.
Overall, I think the passenger appeal of features such as dome cars, observation cars, lounges and diners is poorly appreciated by the bean-counter segment of the passenger rail industry. Comfort, quiet, good food and great, ever-changing scenery -- these are elements that to me are part of a stress-free travel experience -- make the trade-off in time that a passenger inevitably makes in choosing rail over air or automobile acceptable, and often desirable.
The kinds of rolling stock necessary to provide these amenities historically have not generated revenue equal to the cars that carry passengers, whether seated or in sleepers, and so they have been an easy target for bean counters. In the case of diners, the equation is further complicated by high staff expense. But it’s too easy to look at a breakdown of revenue generated by each kind of car and whack off the cars with the lowest numbers, ignoring the fact they are part of the reason revenue-producing passengers are riding in other parts of the train. Airline food, airline confinement and airline views are not selling points for rail travel.
It’s a huge mistake for Amtrak or any operator of long-distance trains to ignore the contribution that these specialty cars make to the overall operation. Original thinking, as well as borrowing from what worked in the past, is needed. I don’t like everything I see from Colorado Railcar, which designed and manufactured cars for the trains 20th Century wrote about above, but that company seems to be attuned to the things we’re writing about in this thread and willing to experiment.
PullmanCo correctly identified the hurdle Amtrak must clear in getting to the solution: There’s no current source of capital for doing any of this except begging Congress.
The other thing that I think would help long-distance trains has been mentioned on other threads. Frequency. Most routes would benefit from at least a second train running on a mirror schedule so that stops served now only in the middle of the night would get a corresponding train that passengers could board or leave in daytime. This, too, requires more capital.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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We should note here how in addition to Domes during "Pioneer Days', Amtrak embraced the round end obs.
Amtrak acquired practically every such roadworthy car available during their 1972 Heritage Fleet acquisition program. They even acquired cars that had been stored by the railroads and waived their usual stainless steel preferred parameter.
Cars coming to mind that were both carbon steel and had been withdrawn from revenue service were the ex-GN "Little Chief Mountain", "Apekunny Mountain", "Port of Seattle", and "Port of Vancouver".
Yes, those "Pioneer Days' were quite something when trains such as Chil-Milw Hiawathas had obs; so did Ch-St Louis and even on occasion did the Chicag-Dubuque Blackhawk and the Mpls-Duluth Northern Arrow.
Suffice to say, the cars were, save an emergency, all "properly pointed'.
While not meaning to draw Grand Luxe into discussion at this topic, it should be noted they have one such car, ex NYC Sandy Creek (never owned by Amtrak), on their roster.
Robert L Member # 3144
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WAIT! WAIT! WAIT! How come everyone is only talking about the western trains and SL domes? The real place for SL domes is in the east. I remember years ago traveling from Washington on an Amtrak SL dome. It was a great trip. Rushing through the tunnels, watching the sun come up over the wheat fields into Chicago. These could work well and be one of those "value-added" enhancements Amtrak needs on the NYC-Miami,NYC-CHI, Cresent, Michigan Corridor trains, Downeaster, everyone would benefit. They could be a business-class addition to the Downeaster, Wolverine or Hiawatha. No big problems as with Superliner matching [detailed well above]. Just hitch them up to the present SL fleet, and go. Some may have sleeper available to sell, or bar/lounge setup to enjoy that track end view. The future of SL domes is in the east. All the criticism/money complaints are the details. Views available along the Atlantic Coast/the Hudson River Valley/midwest farm fields/through the mountains and piedmonts for all to see.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Mr. Robert L; what is overlooked in your posting is that bi-level Superliners and Dome cars cannot operate in the Northeaast thereby precluding their use on any train serving New York.
However Superliners and Dome cars can access WAshington Terminal Company property from lines other than the PRR (NE Corridor).
But, as a veteran Atlantic Coast traveler, what escapes me is why any road offering service over the route, be it SAL, Amtrak, or Auto Train, ever invested a dime in Domes escapes me. "If you've seen one Pine Tree, you've seen 'em all".
One of the wisest moves Amtrak has made was to remove Sightseer Lounges from Auto Train and reassign them elsewhere.
Doodlebug Member # 4564
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There are definitely eastern routes where domes would be a welcome addition, but the reason they never were extensively used there in the first place is clearance problems with bridges and tunnels (the same reason Superliners are mostly used on western routes).
My favorite fallen flag, the Seaboard Air Line Railroad, would have used domes on its Silver Meteor, Silver Star and Silver Comet but low clearances along the Northeast Corridor (beneath Baltimore and, I believe, Washington Union Station) prevented it. The Seaboard incorporated a single-level sleeper-lounge car with skylights built into the lounge portion of the roof as a substitute.
The C&O had a special dome car built that was a bit lower than most domes so it could fit through eastern clearances. They later ran on the Atlantic Coast Line's New York-Florida trains and lasted through ACL's merger with the Seaboard. The Southern used a regular Vista Dome car on its Salisbury-Asheville passenger service in the 1970s that included lots of Blue Ridge Mountain scenery. The Cardinal's route would be a good dome route. It has operated in the past with Superliner equipment.
palmland Member # 4344
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Mr. Norman, I was not aware that the sightseer lounges no longer operate on the Auto-train. What is a thirsty sleeping car passenger to do at the cocktail hour? Certainly that train carries more passengers than any other that might appreciate a good martini or glass of wine before dinner. Are the diners now half lounge?
It is too bad that more SL domes could not operate in the east. But Seaboard made the best of it with its sunroom cars that ran on the Meteor. Even though eastern scenery is generally unspectacular, the big windows of a lounge car really gives you a sense of making a signifiant journey that is sorely lacking in amfleet.
While it may be a railfan thing, even in the east you can't beat sitting in the front of a SL dome watching the block signals change as the train races through small towns. In the Amtrak era I had the pleasure of doing that on the Floridian and Auto-train.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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About seven years ago, Amtrak converted five S-I Diners to Lounges for use on the Auto Train. They are indentical in interior appointments and can be interchanged between Coach and Sleeper class of service.
Two were damaged at Crescent City but have been returned to service.
train lady Member # 3920
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Doodlebug, Washington can handle dome cars on a sl train. For many years there was one on the Cpital Limited. As I mentioned on another thread there is a video America by Rail vol. 1 that has you riding in a dome car. Much of the scenery was shot from there.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The Capital Limited runs northwest out of Washington, with the low clearance point being under the catenary hanging from the New York Avenue Overpass. When C&O ran domes, so far as I know they did not go into Washington. In early Amtrak when the George Washington became the James Whitcomb Riley, the dome went to the Newport News section to/from Charlottesville VA. That was my one eastern dome ride, just before Christmas 1971 upon return from Vietnam.
Southern ran the dome into Asheville in their post 1971 era, but not before. Back when Asheville was a major rail hub for tourists in the 1950's and earlier they ran no domes because of low tunnel clearances. In order to be able to handle piggyback and autoracks, these were all cured by enlarging, parallel bores, bypassing, or daylighting in the early 60's but by then Southern had ceased all investment in passenger equipment.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Although the Chesapeake & Ohio ordered six Dome Cars as well as forty others from Budd, they never ran the Domes in revenue service. They sold the cars to other roads such as the Baltimore & Ohio and Rio Grande.
I have contended over the years that the C&O never had any intention of placing the cars in service, nor did they ever intend to operate their daylight "luxotrain" The Chessie for which the Domes and other Budd equipment were ostensibly ordered. Further, I doubt if they ever intended to assign all of the 271 cars they ordered from Pullman Standard.
The thing was that back in 1948 or thereabouts, passenger traffic was still how the world viewed the railroad industry - and a large order of passenger equipment was worth a "one day pop' in the stock trading price. Furthermore, at that time, there was a ready market for passenger equipment, and the C&O's flambouyant Chairman Robert R Young, correctly figured that other roads would stand in line for ready to go passenger cars.
As discussed elsewhere at the forum, the C&O Domes could be called "low profile" as their overall height was considerably less than other cars. This is why the Baltimore & Ohio, with their clearance issues accessing Washington Terminal Co, were quick to acquire the Dome Sleepers (eventually acquired by Amtrak) followed by two Dome Coaches from Pullman (never on an Amtrak roster).
Incidentially, the B&O closed the domes whenever their Capitol Ltd or Columbian was under the caternary.
RRRICH Member # 1418
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Train Lady - I believe the Washington tunnel which has been referenced here is the tunnel just south of WUS (the one which goes beneath the Capitol bldg), through which the Florida trains, Crescent, Cardinal, Carolinian, and the NEC trains which continue toward Richmond and Newport News use. As George says, the Capitol Ltd does not use the tunnel approach to WUS; it comes in from the NW.
I thought the main clearance problems in the NEC were beneath NYC, going into and out of Penn and GC Stations, not necessarily the DC tunnel.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
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The biggest clearance issue is under catenary. There's a free space mandated to avoid arcing. As I recall, C&O's domes were low enough to pass muster, but most Budd/ACF domes weren't.
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH:I thought the main clearance problems in the NEC were beneath NYC, going into and out of Penn and GC Stations, not necessarily the DC tunnel. [/QB]
Absolutely correct. I have been told by an ex PCRR guy that the main issue in track maintenance in the tunnel used to be any vertical rough spot. Too much bounce, and it would push the pantograph on the GG1 down into the lock, at which point, everything came to a halt.
notelvis Member # 3071
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: About seven years ago, Amtrak converted five S-I Diners to Lounges for use on the Auto Train. They are indentical in interior appointments and can be interchanged between Coach and Sleeper class of service.
Two were damaged at Crescent City but have been returned to service.
My wife and I took the Auto-Train in December 2004 and had a sightseer lounge on our trip...it was during the period that those damaged in Crescent City were still out of service and they were subbing in equipment from the recently single-leveled Cardinal.
I just have not had the heart to try the Cardinal again since it was downgraded.
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