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Question for Montana Jim: Buried in a recent thread, someone asked if the ex-NP mainline through Montana (former North Coast Hiawatha route) was still in operation without any breaks. Since Mr. Montana Jim just posted, I was wondering, do you know the status of that line? Downgraded speed? Is it now Montana Rail Link, not BNSF?
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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To amplify just a bit: the former Northern Pacific RR main line is in fact the now the BNSF main line between the Twin Cities and Fargo, ND via Staples. The former GN line via Willmar is a secondary route.
From Fargo west to Huntley, MT the former NP is called by BNSF the "northern coal route" and carries mainly coal from mines in Wyoming and Montana. West from Huntley to Billings, it carries traffic interchanged from Montana Rail Link, mostly.
From Billings to Spokane, the NP line has been sold to regional railroad Montana Rail Link, which handles through trains with MRL crews between the two points for BNSF. NP had a line through Butte and another through Helena. As noted above, part of the Butte line is out of service, and all traffic now runs via Helena.
From Spokane, the former NP line is the "main line" to Pasco, WA. From there, the former NP main over Stampede Pass to Seattle is a secondary line, unsignaled, with a 40 MPH speed limit, but it's still intact. So yes, the entire line from MSP to Seattle is still there.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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.......Which brings up another question. Pasco to Spokane -- I believe the Empire Builder goes west on one route and east on a different route, right? Which route carries the westbound Builder, and which one carries the E-bd train?
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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My 1955 Northern Pacific timetable shows that the Spokane, Portland and Seattle RR ran Pasco-Spokane via a different route than NP. The current #27/28 Pasco-PDX route along the Columbia is former SP&S. I believe SP&S was part of the merger of GN, NP and Burlington into Burlington Northern. The 2 routes RRRICH is asking about might be ex-NP mainline and ex SP&S.
More northern transcontinental trivia: GN had a secondary line MSP-Fargo that ran through St. Cloud, MN along the current route of Interstate 94. I believe it is now mostly abandoned. Their other CHI-Seattle train that was not the Empire Builder ran this route, and also to Grand Forks, which the GN Builder bypassed.
For 50 foamer points, what was the name of the Great Northern CHI-Seattle passenger train on the above route?
For another 50, what was the name of the Northern Pacific CHI-SEA train (via Helena) that was not the North Coast Limited (via Butte)?
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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I'll go with GN's Western Star for the secondary Chi-Sea route.
For the NP train--Alaskan, with a section known as the Yellowstone Comet.
If by chance I'm correct on one or both, is it possible to exchange my foamer points for an autographed picture of the St. Paul paramedics last January removing your tongue that was frozen to the rails of the BNSF main?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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At least by the 50's and later, the NP train was not The Alaskan or Yellowstone Comet. Hint: the Western Star passed through the town of Sauk Centre MN, which was the home of a famous person responsible for the name of the correct NP train.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The event depicted in the requested picture did not occur. I chose to take the SWC to Arizona instead.
Sinclair Lewis is the famous person, and a generous hint for the name of the train (and NP's name for their route to Seattle -hint #2).
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: .......Which brings up another question. Pasco to Spokane -- I believe the Empire Builder goes west on one route and east on a different route, right? Which route carries the westbound Builder, and which one carries the E-bd train?
I believe they follow the same route, the former Northern Pacific. Only one line between these points is shown in the BNSF ETT. The SP&S line appears to have been abandoned. IIRC, it had a number of long bridges that needed major work so sometime after the NP+GN+CB&Q merger all traffic was put on the ex NP line.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mainstreeter is correct. NP's slogan on my timetable is "The Main Street of the Northwest". Sinclair Lewis' bestseller "Main Street" preceded the naming of the train. The magazine of the Northern Pacific Historical Society is also called the Mainstreeter.
The Mainstreeter stopped in about 120 towns between MSP and Seattle in the 50's. Most of them probably had a Main Street.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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George - is the former NP line the one through Ritzville and Connell, or the one through Washtucna?
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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In my early childhood, I joined the Captain Eleven Video Space Rangers (local TV channel 11). For this I received currency called Venus Credits, good on Venus when we get there. They are since lost, but worth about the same as foamer points.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ira, it was on Minneapolis-St.Paul local TV (I think ABC affiliate) in the early 50's. Showed old movie serials: Flash Gordon, Don Winslow of the Navy, Zorro, etc. Each episode ended with a hokey spinning spiral pattern, probably on cardboard. Capt. 11 wore a space uniform, more distinguished than Capt. Kirk. It could have been syndicated. I was too young to know.
A more enduring kid's show was Casey Jones, arriving on track 11, and his pal Roundhouse Rodney. (There, we're back to train related).
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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George -- thanks a lot!! That was indeed the route the W-bd EB took on my last trip on it in 1998, and the route which I have mapped in my railroad map project.
I believe the other route requires a backup move into or out of Pasco (depending on direction of travel), doesn't it?
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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A more enduring kid's show was Casey Jones, arriving on track 11, and his pal Roundhouse Rodney. (There, we're back to train related). [/QB]
I remember those as well TwinStar.
If I am not mistaken the actor who played Casey Jones (name I don't recall but am confident someone here does) went on to be the Captain in Gilligan's Island. He might also have been the train engineer in the series Circus Boy. A career in vehicular themed TV and movies?
And wasn't there a program called "Iron Horse" back then with Dale Robertson? Seems I recall some early-mid fifties show about the trans-continental railroad.
What am I doing with all this miscellany in my head?? Help Mr. Wizard....
Ira
Posts: 300 | From: Denver, CO USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: That was indeed the route the W-bd EB took on my last trip on it in 1998, and the route which I have mapped in my railroad map project.
I believe the other route requires a backup move into or out of Pasco (depending on direction of travel), doesn't it?
From the look of the SPV Railroad Atlas this appears to be the case. However, to use this route today would require quite a few miles of gravel road, as the atlas shows the line removed.
If you are doing a railroad map project, I would suggest that you get the SPV atlases. They have loads of information on former ownerships, abandoned lines, etc. Just be careful of stepping on their copyrights. You can also go to topozone and see the USGS quads, and I believe that you can use the information on the quads without being concerned about copyrights, since we as US taxpayers already own the information.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Right you are, George -- you can't always count on TopoZone, however, since the maps they use are only as current as the most recent USGS quads for the area, and MANY areas have not been remapped for many many many years.
For my project, I use the maps in DeLorme's 3-D Topo Quads sets, which are scanned USGS topographic maps, and again are not necessarily the most recent maps available. And yes, you are right, USGS maps are in the Public Domain, and there is no problem using them in such a project.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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For a number of years, BN ran the two routes between Pasco and Spokane as paired track, with eastbounds on the former SP&S and westbounds on the former NP through Ritzville. The Latah Creek Bridge in Spokane (built 1970s) was built in part to make both lines accessible without backup moves.
In the event, BN decided in the late 1980s that the large trestles and deep cuts on the ex-SP&S were too expensive to maintain (it was *much* better engineered than the former NP). Some additional CTC was installed on the NP, and some sidings were lengthened, but shifting all traffic over there resulted in trains taking 7 hours or more to cover the 120 miles -- especially since the decision had been made to run most merchandise traffic to/from Seattle via Pasco.
There is now talk of returning the SP&S to service. We'll have to see what happens.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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