posted
Back in June of 1968 and serving as a Hospital Corpsman at the Phila. Naval Hosp. I was asked to escort the body of a Navy Corpsman back home. He was KIA in Viet Nam.
I had to meet the hearse at Dover AFB and then go to the train station at Wilmington, Del. From Wilmington we went to Ashville, NC where the funeral director met me and we then went on to Andrews, NC.
I am almost positive that we disembarked in Ashville, NC, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how we got there. I can remember the train climbing up through the mountains.
If there is anyone who can fill in some of this information, I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Joe
Posts: 85 | From: Finger Lakes Region of NY | Registered: Jun 2008
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I'll defer to Mr. Presley for any information regarding the Asheville Special, as such is his tramping ground. But allow me to note that I was in Air force communications stationed at Dover AFB Nov 1965-Jun 1967.
I handled all too many messages of nature and scope noted by Mr. Urdahere.
Most painful was during early 1967 when I found myself handling a remains movement message regarding a Secondary School (boarding - "Prep" in this case) friend two classes behind me. In a school where 99% went, Chris chose not to go to college and instead joined the USMC upon graduation.
Nothing to that point had brought Nam as close to me as did this occurrence - and following my Dover assignment, I served @ HQ 7th AF Jul 67-68.
I've visited Chris, along with Tommy and Rick, about three times over the years at The Wall; in the matter of Chris, I did my small part to help him come home.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I'll defer also, although you probably connected to either the Asheville Special or Carolina Special at Greensboro. You rode the Southern Railway System ("The Southern Serves the South") through the Smokies, for sure.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Believe it or not, I have an August 1968 Southern Railway passenger timetable in my desk. In fact, I have had it since it was new. I worked in Birmingham AL at the time. (Got my friendly letter from Uncle Sam sometime after that and reported to Fort Lost in the Woods, Missouri in May 1969.)
In this timetable, you would have left Wilmington DE at 9:39pm on Penn Central train 155 which became the combined Pelican - Peach Queen - Asheville Special at Washington DC, leaving Washington DC at 11:55pm. According to this timetable, the train leaving DC had four sleepers, all 10-roomette, 6-double bedrooms. They were car N-81 to Bristol VA/TN in the Pelican, car SR-32 to Atlanta, and originating in New York, car SR-31 to Atlanta, both in the Peach Queen and car SR-44 to Asheville in the Asheville Special. Coach passengers had to change at Washington and Greensboro.
The Pelican cars were removed at Monroe VA at 3:20am.
The train arrived in Greensboro at 6:30am. The Asheville sleeper was detached and a dining car added to the Peach Queen.
Coaches were added and the Asheville Special left Greensboro at 7:00am. There was no dining car. A note on the schedule at Winston-Salem NC says "Box meal available on notice to Conductor." This would be for breakfast, as the time was Ar7:40am Lv7:50am. Climbing the Loops between Old Fort and Ridgecrest would be 11:43am to 12:05pm (noon) if on schedule. Arrival in Asheville at 12:45pm (just after noon.)
Departure time to go back to Delaware was at 2:35pm. This was not the only passenger service remaining in Asheville, but probably was the one with the majority of people. There was a remnant of the Carolina Special remaining, but it no longer showed the name in the schedule. It was a coach only train between Oakdale TN and Columbia SC. It no longer went through to Cincinnati, as that portion has been discontinued about a year earlier. However, this train made it possible to still ride over Saluda grade. The eastern section that ran Asheville to Raleigh was also gone.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Following the creation of Amtrak in 1971 (which Southern elected not to join), the connecting train to Asheville was shifted to Salisbury, NC, and service to Winston-Salem was discontinued. It became a coach-only connection at that time.
Also, the old downtown station in Asheville was demolished sometime in the mid-1960s and Southern's trains used "Biltmore Station", a suburban station near the Biltmore mansion, after that time.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: ........ There was a remnant of the Carolina Special remaining, but it no longer showed the name in the schedule. It was a coach only train between Oakdale TN and Columbia SC. It no longer went through to Cincinnati, as that portion has been discontinued about a year earlier. However, this train made it possible to still ride over Saluda grade. The eastern section that ran Asheville to Raleigh was also gone.
At the risk of wandering off topic, The Columbia 'State' newspaper had an article a few days ago on the last run of the Carolina Special forty years ago this month.
It is interesting that a few months earlier in February of 1968 (according to the Official Guide) you would have been on the much nicer 'Southerner' from NY to Greensboro and arrived in Asheville some four hours earlier at 8:30 am. Fortunately the Southern station in Columbia (larger than SAL's) still stands as a good 'California Dreamin' restaurant.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rresor: Also, the old downtown station in Asheville was demolished sometime in the mid-1960s and Southern's trains used "Biltmore Station", a suburban station near the Biltmore mansion, after that time.
Interesting in that my timetable shows a time for both Biltmore and Asheville. Difference in padding also very evident. In 1968 Southern allowed 12 minutes for the 2.1 miles between Biltmore and Asheville inbound and 5 minutes outbound. Only 7 minutes of padding! If we take the last few stops, Black Mountain to Asheville, 15.9 miles with two stops and and flag stop in the distance, the westbound time is 33 minutes and the eastbound time is 31 minutes, almost no padding. Well, maybe a little more than the 2 minute difference since the line out of Asheville is uphill from there to Ridgecrest.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Peach Queen - I love it! I wonder what the color scheme of the cars was. My GA trains were City of Miami and Man of War.
Posts: 326 | From: San Antonio Texas USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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This is incredible forum. I can't believe how much information I have received.
It turns out that GBN was stationed at Dover AFB, dealing with the movement of remains while I was at Philly in the pathology dept. I went on to be in charge of the Far East Mortuary in Yokosuka, Japan.
The clincher were the commments by Mr. Harris. His information answered a lot of my questions. I remember a part of the trip was through the mountains. At times I could see down in the valley where the train was maybe a half hour before. It was incredible. During that portion of the trip, I was standing on the platform with the upper half of he door open to the air. A porter came through and made the comment, "sailor, now you looks just like me." When I asked him what he ment, he said look in a mirror. I was black from soot. Standing in that doorway while the engines pulled us up through those mountains, turned out to be the worst place for me to be. We all had a good laugh though and I was lucky to have two sets of dress blues.
I have google mapped the view between Ridgecrest and Old Fort, NC and sure enough, there were all those switchbacks. Too bad there is no train through there now. What a ride.
Again, thanks for the information.
Joe
Posts: 85 | From: Finger Lakes Region of NY | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Urdahere: I have google mapped the view between Ridgecrest and Old Fort, NC and sure enough, there were all those switchbacks. Too bad there is no train through there now. What a ride.
Again, thanks for the information.
Joe
There may someday be a train again on this route, at least if the state of NC can do what they want here. go to www.bytrain.org and look in the future service part for Western North Carolina service.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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To City of Miami's qeuetion about the color schemes. The sleepers were definately unpainted silver stainless steel. In somewhat earlier days the Pelican's part of the streamlined sleepers would have been red norfolk and western. But by this time all were stainless. The coaches could have been a combination of stainless, heavyweight and beauifully rebuilt heavyweight, of which Southern had much.
But since the Asheville coaches returned northbound in the Crescent, a good chance they were usually stainless.
-------------------- bill haithcoat Posts: 45 | From: atlanta, ga | Registered: Jan 2008
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Great thread and I'm sorry I missed it earlier - I was out of town for a couple of days and didn't take the laptop along with me. It was, a 'shhhhhhh' V-A-C-A-T-I-O-N.
June of 1968 there were still two passenger train stations in Asheville. The 'Asheville' station and the 'Biltmore' station......as in 'Biltmore House'.
The Carolina Special, by that time, was a coach only train from Harriman, TN to Columbia, SC. Originally this train had been combined with the Ponce De Leon and had carried through sleepers overnight to Cincinnati and points beyond.
The 'full-service' Carolina Special included a North Carolina section which detached in Asheville and continued down the mountain to Greensboro. By 1968 the North Carolina section had been discontinued and the 'Asheville Special' schedule modified to connect with the remnant of the Carolina Special.
Note that the Southern Railway timetables of the era called this a 'consolidation' of the two trains......but prior to the 'consolidation' there were two trains each direction over the route each day. Following the 'consolidation' there was only one.
Joe, you undoubtedly would have come up on this Asheville Special carded for Greensboro departure at 7:00am as described by George Harris.
Carrying this a bit further, the remnant of the Carolina Special, a locomotive and two coaches only by this time, made it's final run December 5, 1968. (Ironically the same day the Denver and Rio Grande's final narrow guage freight train departed Alamosa, CO for Chama and Durango.
The downtown Asheville station (which was hardly downtown) was demolished shortly after the Carolina Special made it's final run and the remaining Asheville Special moved two miles east to the much smaller Biltmore station. Biltmore was renamed Asheville at that time. The Biltmore Depot still stands and is a mediocre restaurant now.
The Asheville Special continued to carry a through sleeper until sometime in 1970 when several changes were made. First, Southern rescheduled their trains 5 and 6, the Piedmont, as a Washington to Atlanta day train. The Asheville train was rerouted to Salisbury rather than Greensboro (eliminating passenger train service to Winston-Salem in the process) and rescheduled to connect with trains 5 and 6 in Salisbury. This Asheville train was scheduled tri-weekly rather than daily and, of course, the sleeping car was withdrawn since it was now a daylight schedule. One improvement is that for the first time ever a dome car was added to the Asheville train's consist.
This train survived until August 1975....there has been no scheduled passenger service to Asheville since.
OK......sorry......Asheville service (or lack thereof) is near and dear to my heart.
What would have really fascinated me was your drive from Asheville to Andrews.....a distance of 100 miles in 1968. THAT would have been some slow, mountainous, two-lane highway at that time.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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And the information just keeps on coming. What a wealth of information you have there David. I see that you are from Western North Carolina so it probably breaks your heart now that there is no rail service. I too am looking forward to be able to travel that route again.
You mentioned the trip to Andrews. I do remember that it was a long ways, curvey and it seemed to take forever. The trip back to Ashville was even worse. Rain and fog all the way and then to top it off I had to fly out on Piedmont Airlines in that same weather. I have never prayed so much as I did on that flight.
With my daughter living in the Atlanta area, my wife and I have made several trips down there. On one trip I decided to go to Andrews and see if I could find the wife of the young man I escorted back home. I did and we had a long a tearful visit. They had only been married a short time when he was killed.
It's a beautiful part of the country and the LL and I would really like to settle there after retirement. So far, Waynesville and Dillsboro is looking pretty good.
I have looked and can't seem to find any excursion trains that may travel through the Loops. Do you know of any?
Thanks again for the info.
Joe
Posts: 85 | From: Finger Lakes Region of NY | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nope......the Old Fort loops rarely host any passenger train since Norfolk Southern exited the steam excursion business in 1994. There were regular excursions up and down Old Fort Mountain prior to that and I was fortunate to make the ride a number of times. Every now and then you might see one offered by the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer BUT their trips normally stick to the main line up to Charlottesville, VA......rarely venturing up to Asheville.
The North Carolina DOT has studied and proposed bringing Amtrak to Asheville over the Old Fort loops. At one time we were really optimistic that this would happen BUT other than the DOT restoring three of the train stations (Morganton, Marion, Old Fort) along the route, nothing more has happened.....and the plan has been in the works since 1994.....so we wait.
The Great Smoky Mountains Scenic Railway operates regular summer trips between Bryson City and Nantahala Gorge......the more scenic portion of the old Murphy Branch which goes through Andrews. Two or three times a year they still operate an excursion train all the way to Andrews.
Regular passenger train service to Murphy from Asheville ended in 1949. The train was a baggage car and a coach or two hauled by a light Pacific 4-6-2 steam locomotive. This train didn't survive long enough to be deemed worthy of being hauled by a diesel locomotive.
It would be important to note that my first 'real job' out of college was at Andrews High School 25 years ago now. I lived in the Andrews and Murphy area for 2 years before moving on to other opportunities. I know how that drive looked in 1983.......how it must have looked 15 years before that was of interest.
Waynesville and Dillsboro are certainly lovely areas......my dad was a native of Waynesville....and those communities are nearer to Atlanta than they seem.....that's a plus.
Best wishes to you, David
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I caught the Pelican portion of this train out of Alexandria, VA in December of 1969 to go home for Christmas. I can't remember much about it, except that the sleeper to Bristol was no more. I was in OCS at Ft. Belvoir at the time, and we had a two week Christmas break, beginning at our release on the Friday. Whle in OCS, we were not allowed to be on the road in a POV (this is military speak for privately owned vehicle) inlcuding taxicabs after dark. Of course the Tachs made sure it was after dark before they released us.
However, a city bus was not a POV, and one of the bus routes ran out US 1 as far as Belvoir. So, I caught a late evening city bus up to Alexandria, walked over to the RF&P station and bought a ticket to Bristol, so I was in Roanoke by the time those that did not know this game, meaning almost all the rest, were able to leave Belvoir. Unfortunately beyond Bristol it was Trailways the rest of the way.
First last and only time I was on the track between Lynchburg and Bristol, and even though it was daylight after Roanoke, I was so exhausted I slept until we were pulliing into Bristol.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by City of Miami: The Peach Queen - I love it! I wonder what the color scheme of the cars was. My GA trains were City of Miami and Man of War.
The City of Miami would be in Illinois Central colors. Have no idea of what the colors were on the Man of War.
The Peach Queen sleepers would be unpainted stainless steel, as would be any streamlined coaches. Older coaches would be in the Southern standard dark green.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Central of Georgia seemed to have had a unique livery for each train operated over its lines. Cars assigned to the City of Miami and Seminole were painted in ICRR Orange and Brown livery.
Here is the livery CofG used pre-SRY control for the Atlanta-Savannah Nancy Hanks.
The Atlanta-Columbus Man of War had Budd stainless equipment.
Finally, general service heavyweight cars were liveried in traditional 'olive' green.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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