Just caught this on the news: 6:00 pm EDT. AmTrak train derails near Crescent City, FL. At least 17 cars off the tracks. I saw a film clip that had several superliners in it (very evident writen on the side). No word yet of injuries. Probably happened about 1 hour ago - headed South.
Posted by Tessie (Member # 1419) on :
Additional information: it was the auto train headed north from Sanford Fl to Lorton Virginia. AmTrak says 423 people aboard. Injuries not yet determined, but statement was made by rescuers that some people were trapped underneath the cars. Happened about 55 miles south of Jacksonville.
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
It looks like Auto Train may have derailed on a curve. P40 838 was on the point, and remained upright, along with the trailing unit. The crew sleeper also remained upright. I think they said that 35 or so cars derailed. Three people have been confirmed dead, and 75 were trapped in the cars. I offer my condolences to the passengers and their families.
It looks like more Superliners will be heading off to the Grove for repairs, or to wait for repairs.
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 04-18-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 04-18-2002).]
Posted by yummykaz (Member # 475) on :
Very sad and scarry. But to be blunt, and to explain why I take the train: there were SURVIVORS! When the plane crashes you NEVER hear that word!
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
yummykaz wrote: "Very sad and scarry. But to be blunt, and to explain why I take the train: there were SURVIVORS! When the plane crashes you NEVER hear that word!"
Exactly. Over 400 people on board, and only five deaths. Granted, people were injured, but only five deaths.
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 04-18-2002).]
Posted by Ken V (Member # 1466) on :
Whatever the number, whenever there are fatalities such an incident is tragic. I too offer my condolences to family and friends.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
An interesting "sound byte" was included on CBS "World News Roundup' this morning. An Amtrak on-board employee named Reggie Jackson was interviewed on air and said "I'll be back; I like working on the train".
Over and done in five seconds - if you want "in depth", best tune in PBS's "All Things considered".
Posted by DisbandAmtrak (Member # 1429) on :
A terrible, terrible tradegy. My condolences to the victim's families.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Amtrak seems to have more than its share of accidents. When you consider the relatively small number of trains operating, and the number of accidents in the last couple of years (the CZ in Ohio and Utah, the Starlight in N. Ca, etc.), Amtrak's accident rate seems unacceptably high.
What do accidents like this say about the condition and safety of this country's rail infrastructure?
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
SEVILLE, Florida (CNN) -- A track misalignment could have played a role in a deadly train derailment in northeastern Florida, a National Transportation Safety Board investigator said Friday.
Four people were killed and 159 were injured when 21 cars from the 40-car Amtrak Auto Train left the tracks and folded accordion-style along a rural stretch of track.
Lead investigator George Black told reporters the Amtrak engineer was accelerating -- after stopping to allow a freight train to pass -- when he hit the brakes and initiated a full emergency stop.
Black said that heat, a loose rail or a number of other factors could have caused the rails to become misaligned. But, he added, "we will not know for a while" the actual cause of the crash.
Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :
There are some problems with the infrastructure to be sure. Since no obvious cause has been identified yet (I have not heard of one anyway) the most likely cause is track failure.
It is less common that Amtrak trains derail due to 'operator error' or equipment failure.
In 1984 or 1985, after a series of highly publicized accidents, the Amtrak route rail lines were inspected nationwide to see if there were any obvious flaws in the system. The conclusion was that there were no major problems...the accidents were just that and it was only coincidental that they occurred within a period of a few months.
We'll see where this one leads.
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
Here is another news report, with a photo showing the units and all the Superliner cars: http://msnbc.com/news/740775.asp#BODY Posted by scaredrider (Member # 1566) on :
I tried to avoid this story, but I just had to look into it. I was watching television, and one of the reporters had said that there are at least 1,000 derailments a year on Amtrak. Was he misquoted? I would hope that this number is exagerated. Do all derailments of passenger trains cause this much injury? Could it have been so severe because of the extra weight of the auto-train cars?
Remember how they say that if you travel by train it is still more safe than driving our freeways? Is the same true for train travel? Considering our freeways, I would think so.
I am glad that the fatalaties were less than the initial number. I hope that the other passengers are alright. What a nightmare!
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
"I tried to avoid this story, but I just had to look into it. I was watching television, and one of the reporters had said that there are at least 1,000 derailments a year on Amtrak. Was he misquoted? I would hope that this number is exagerated. Do all derailments of passenger trains cause this much injury? Could it have been so severe because of the extra weight of the auto-train cars?"
He may not have been misquoted, but only a handfull of Amtrak derailments result in this kind of injury. He was probably referring to something like a locomotive's wheels jumping the tracks, or maybe one or two cars leaving the rail, but definitely not serious like this wreck. They are beginning to investigate whether the auto-carriers contributed to the severity of the wreck. I'd have to say they did, but we'll wait for the reports. I saw an NBC report, and was surprised and glad they said, "The low amount of injury and death can be explained by the strength and design of the passenger cars." They then compared that to a plane wreck, where few usually survive.
Posted by DisbandAmtrak (Member # 1429) on :
I thought about derailments a lot during my trip. Somehow it seems safer than flying, cause you have solid steel beneath you. Even in an accident, maybe my car will just slide off, and the worst that will happen is that I'll be thrown across the aisle.
But still, statistically, look at the number of commercial aircraft in the sky at one time, compared to the number of Amtrak trains on the rails. FLying is still safer, (if scarier, for some).
Posted by reggierail (Member # 26) on :
1'000 derailments per year sounds more like the total for passenger & freight total. Most of those are minor involving only one car or maybe even one truck. A close friend & fellow passenger rail advocate reported today on a train from the Bay area to Bakersfield on the way to LA. He was bussing it to LA to catch the S.W. Chief. He spoke with a high ranking Amtrak West official on the train & was told the call was out for any spare Superliner cars to help put the Auto Train back together. I understand both north & south bound trains have been annuled for at least the next couple of days.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While at this point, the cause of the incident can only be speculative, it was interesting to note that NBC News carried a clip comparing the incident to an aircraft crash with Robert Hager (airline safety correspondent) stating how the cars held together in the crash (I don't think he used "maintained structural integrity") when compated with an aircraft hull.
Also of interest is how the news media is wondering why there are not yet seafty belts on trains. Come to think of it, i always seem to at first feel a bit "naked' after boarding a train, habitually reaching for the belt, and finding none.
Posted by trainman1 (Member # 1392) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: While at this point, the cause of the incident can only be speculative, it was interesting to note that NBC News carried a clip comparing the incident to an aircraft crash with Robert Hager (airline safety correspondent) stating how the cars held together in the crash (I don't think he used "maintained structural integrity") when compated with an aircraft hull.
Robert Hager is NBC's transportation reporter, not just covering airlines, and when I've seen him in the past, he does seem to know his stuff when it comes to trains, at least better than other reporters at the other networks. Of course, he reports on the airlines a lot more often than trains (not just because of crashes, although that's partially a factor).
[This message has been edited by trainman1 (edited 04-20-2002).]
Posted by Amtrak207 (Member # 1307) on :
Priorities first: My deepest condolences go out to the families and friends of the victims. These are people, not statistics. Every person on the planet has a family and close friends who will be adversely affected by an event like this. Complaints next: As usual, the media is butchering the story. They've got cars described as rolling over when they really jacknife. Like every other story, they depend on passengers' accounts of "what really happened," with great descriptions like crash bang boom, and bam! Let's kick the reporting up a notch. Next there's the injury count. First reports made it sound like everyone on board was injured, then they said there were 75 people trapped in cars, then the fatality count went from three to six to four to five to four. The brits, while more accurate, spice things up with the carriaged and waggons and sleepers. All of the "experts" are trying to pin a cause on the wreck before the dust settles. Last night, NBC played some crash test footage (of a SUBWAY CAR!) to try and justify the usual seat belt argument. Trains don't run into fixed barriers. They derail, then slide to a stop, not like an automobile. Then there's ABC trying to invent other Auto Trains. The footage focuses on walking wounded as opposed to fact-finding pictures. Was there damage to the lead locomotive from a collision? Was there sideswipe damage from another train or debris? You really can't tell if the only thing they are going to show is people walking around with bandages on. The commentators are too busy playing tapes of people talking about four hundred pound people instead of saying where the injuries occurred. Has anyone found a decent source of news that doesn't torture a story like this? NPR doesn't broadcast when I can listen to it around here, and I don't have cable. What is the matter? Is their reporting on other issues as crappy as this? They are trying to outdo one another in reporting facts they simply don't know yet. They never point out that the NTSB report will not be out for OVER A YEAR. Whatever. Enough fuming about the news. Even worse is the idea that another seventeen Superliners are out of service to be added to the pile in Beech Grove. If we're never going to get the funding to fix these things, why don't you put out an Auto Train set with nothing but heritage, horizon, and amfleet cars to make a point? I know, I know, they care too much about the paying customers to do that. And how long is it going to take before freight tracks that carry passenger trains are maintained to safe levels, as opposed to just profitable ones? Accidents happen, but some of them are inexcusable. Even worse are the fatal ones. Wrecks helped kill the original Auto Train. I don't want to see the usual congressional crap kill this one. Despite the misleading statistics, I will still hesitate to fly, while I will take a train anytime. I guess if I am going to die in a transportation accident, I'd rather be identified as a single mass instead of being blown to bits by impacting the ground at .83 mach. I know nice guys finish last, but why do they always finish last when it is not their fault?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
A construstive and provocative posting, "Mr. 207".
Allow me one little "nitpick"; the railcar being crashed was on NBC file footage of a test made at Pueblo, CO (it has been aired on "Dateline" before) and was a Budd Silverliner used in Phila Area commuter service.
Posted by Silver Star (Member # 1570) on :
Great comments by Amtrak 207. The media usually does butcher these stories. I have been pretty pleased with coverage this time as at least all the networks play up the surprising strength of the Superliners. Still, one media source said the train started in Stanford (as in university).
A good sign is that the derailment expert company says none of the cars look like candidates to be scrapped but in the current climate, this just means they go to the Beech Grove holding yard for a long time. Two or three sleepers on this train, the Kansas and the Colorado (and maybe the Michigan) are not usual AutoTrain cars. Several A-T cars have deadheaded to Beech grove for scheduled maintenance in the past couple months so these must have been subbing. That may mean there will be no priority in repairs though a couple of the deluxe sleepers were involved and likely will go to the head of the repair line.
As for using Amfleet and Horizon cars, that is exactly what they are doing with the Silver Palm (soon to be Palmetto). No sleeper NYP-MIA...that is absurd!
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
Just a couple of points on rail safety: firstly, the vast majority of passengers survive a derailment in most cases. In fact, the majority of passengers are uninjured in most derailments. Compare that with aeroplane crashes, in which everyone aboard is killed in most instances. Secondly, I imagine more people have been killed and injured in motor collisions on the roads leading to the Autotrain terminals than have ever been killed or injured aboard the trains. Here in Canada, it has often been said that the road trip to the airport or railway station is the most dangerous part of one's trip. I have read that the number of deaths in road collisions in the U.S. is about 40,000 annually and about 4,000 in Canada (which is proportional to the population difference.) Relatively few instances of this appalling carnage ever make it into the media.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I can only hope that "Mr. Star" is on the mark in his report that a representative of the derailment salvage company (Hulcher, Isringhausen, or whoever) believes that most if not all of the Superliners are reparable.
Now let's hope that Amtrak will somehow "find the money" to fix 'em up. Since the Auto Train reportedly "darned near" makes money, this means is does make a "positive cash flow contribution" (or, as I often said back at railroad.net, puts more in the cookie jar than it takes out). There is strong Congressional support for the service at "both ends" - Rep. John Mica (R-FL-7th) is a strong Amtrak supporter (his District includes Sanford); nothing further need be said about the Northeast, and much of AT's public acceptance comes from that there is usually "last minute" space available in either class of service.
So lets hope that "Mr. EGM" (a Beech Grove shop craft employee and frequent railroad.net Correspondent) and colleauges, as well as his equally talented and dedicated colleagues at Sanford (I really like those Sanford rebuilt lounges - with them in the consist, I really don't miss the Sightseers), will all get to "roll up their sleeves" and get that equipment back on the rails. Also, memo to Amtrak's Claim Dept: please respect that your clients are not exactly driving around in "used Yugos".
Lastly to "Sharon M" at "HQ": a tough bump in the road, but auto and I WILL be back as your "guests".
[This message has been edited by Gilbert B Norman (edited 04-21-2002).]
Posted by 1ring2bind (Member # 1571) on :
Several members of the media were speculating about finding the cockpit voice recorder, when in fact, investigators could just talk with the engineer.
I was curious if the cause of the accident might have been the emergency braking. Three people pulled the emergency break almost simultaneously, according to reports. This is a 41 car train (including engines) and the last 23 cars were extra heavy because they carried automobilies. Is it possible that once the brakes locked up the end of the train stopped a few hundred feet after the front of the train and squeezed the middle cars off the track?
I was especially curious because if there was indeed a problem with the track, as has been speculated, the two engines in the front and the first car would have tipped. Instead the passenger cars after the first one through to the auto cars tipped.
Also, as to why only four people were killed, I was wondering how fast the train was actually moving when it derailed. The reports said it was travelling at 56 miles per hour, but others reported the brakes locked for 30 seconds before derailment. If the brakes had been locked for 30 seconds, the train might have been traveling less than 10 miles per hour when it derailed.
Does anyone know the answers to this?
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
"Three people pulled the emergency brake almost simultaneously, according to reports." They said that the two engineers and the conductor felt something wrong- one engineer seeing the problem -and all went for the emergency brakes. Although all three (or at least two of them) plugged the train at about the same time, only the first pull would have done anything. It has been discussed on Trainorders.com that a Superliner and a (loaded) auto-carrier weigh about the same, but I'm not sure. The engineer has a switch in the cab which enables him to put the end-of-train-device (ETD) into emergency at the same time as he puts the train brakes into emergency. This will give the train extra braking power, and hopefully stop the rear cars from "bunching" into the forward cars. Sometimes the locomotives and one or two cars make it over a problem in the track before anything starts to go wrong- before all the weight of the train really damages the track. The SW Chief derailed on a washed-out bridge in AZ a few years back. The locomotives made it over the unsupported track, but then the weight of the train spread the rails and several cars derailed. Hope this answers a few of your questions! -Eric
Posted by Kairho (Member # 1567) on :
I'm too new at this to offer an opinion. But I can comment on the statement, "others reported the brakes locked for 30 seconds before derailment." Studies (and I wish I could cite one) have shown that when under stress, the concept of time goes out the window. Personal reports of the length of an earthquake vary over a considerable range. So this 30 seconds could be anything from 5 seconds to a minute based on personal reports. Something more accurate will provide a better clue.
As the the crash itself, I am in complete sympathy with those injured and killed and thier families.
But to put a positive light on this, my house is about 1050 feet from the "western" main line from Tampa to Jacksonville with an unobstructed view. (The accident was 20 or 25 miles due east.)
We normally have only the two Silver Palms which come through in the middle of the night. But the past few days I've been treated to the other Silvers during real daylight. Unfortunately, I missed the Sunset Limited...
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
"So this 30 seconds could be anything from 5 seconds to a minute based on personal reports. Something more accurate will provide a better clue." Once the locomotive event recorder is analyzed, they should be able to come up with an actual number. More waiting, I suppose.
Posted by Ken V (Member # 1466) on :
How do you think this might influence Amtrak funding, if at all?
Posted by Amtrak207 (Member # 1307) on :
The sources quoted saying 30 seconds were passengers, and as I tried to point out earlier, just because they were there doesn't mean they know everything about what happened. This is why the media's dependence on eyewitness accounts annoys me. I believe they were (repeatedy mis-) quoted as saying that was the elapsed time for the whole pileup. When one person pulls the emergency brake, ALL the wheels will lock up, so one individual wheelset can not have contributed to the accident. Penalty for improper use, five pounds. A piece of rail should (theoretically) endure the highest level of stresses as the heaviest item passes over it, which in this case would be the pair of locomotives. But, after they pass over, the roadbed has to recover in time to accept the repeated loadings from the rest of the train. If the roadbed could not recover, the first few cars would have forced the track from a serious misalignment to outright failure. Does anyone have a complete consist report of the train involved in this derailment? The only facts I've been able to find so far is that the lead loco was 838 and one of the cars was coach 34120. Never mind, I just answered my own question, except for the second loco. For the cars involved, see http://trainweb.org/web_lurker/AmtrakSuperliner/ for details.
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
"Transportation Department officials believe Congress will opt for a temporary solution because lawmakers don't want to get bogged down during an election year in which they face pressing issues on the Middle East and the war on terrorism." REUTERS.
I believe that we need to protect the US, but we should be able to devote more time and money from JUST the "war" on terrorism. There are many other "problems" in the US that we need to deal with, INCLUDING passenger rail...
Posted by Silver Star (Member # 1570) on :
Replies to some recent posts: John Mica of FL has been an outspoken critic of Amtrak, not a supporter though he recently pushed for a demonstartion commuter train between DeLand and Orlando. Maybe he likes AutoTrain but he has been very anti-Amtrak.
Secondly, P40 engines have a red button that is pushed to activate the emergency brakes. Pulling a cord is something out of old train movies as in older passenger cars.
Third, the Sunset Limited did not travel down the "S" line via Ocala as #2 was annulled Saturday and #1 today. Busses ran New Orleans to Orlando. This is a dumb practice by Amtrak as the train could have easily run to Orlando using the S line then up the A line from Auburndale as they did in the past during major trackwork and after a coal train derailed at Yukon (Jax). At the very least the Sunset should have run to Jacksonville...making people ride an overnight bus is absurd when there is an option. I did it once east of NOL and it is NOT at all enjoyable. However, on trip it was unavoidable due to flooding from a tropical storm.
Finally, here is a quote from Noel Rush, president of RJ Corman RR group which handles derailment cleanups (in Sat. Orlando Sentinel): "None of the cars were so badly damaged that they would have to be cut up for scrap metal. There's nothing like that here from what I see. We may be able to rerail everything."
Posted by Silver Star (Member # 1570) on :
The second engine was 843.
Posted by reggierail (Member # 26) on :
Superliner cars are heavier than the auto-racks even if the auto-racks were loaded with the heaviest vehicles now on the road. The superliner diner probably the heaviest car on the train behind the locomotive. The speculation that the heavy auto-racks might have squeezed the passenger cars off of the tracks is incorrect. One of, if not the heaviest, passenger rail car was the Santa Fe Hi-Level Buffet Diner. It was so heavy it even had 6 wheel trucks. I worked as an LSA on a trip aboard the Sunset Ltd. that had a Hi-Level diner in the consist. Our train set off a detector & the train was stopped to check for overheated bearings. The detector message gives the axle number & the crew would count back to find the suspect axle. After checking the suspect axle & finding no defect, the train continued. We set off another detector & I, being a train buff, asked the conductor if he took into consideration the fact that our diner had 6 axles. He was not aware of that and in fact was quite amazed. He then refigured the location of the suspect axle and indeed found a defect. That car was then pulled from the consist and we continued on our way. Reggie
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[This message has been edited by reggierail (edited 04-21-2002).]
Posted by CarterB (Member # 1439) on :
Let me see if I have this straight: The additional weight and number of the car carriers behind superliner equipment had nothing to do with the accordioning of the superliners? In other words, roadrailers and/or other 'tail end' equipment does not increase the possibility of kinetic energy causing 'bunching' of passenger equipment in braking situations? Theoretically, you could put a few superliners in front of a 25 or so 'freight' cars with no adverse effect?
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
Not being an expert, the first couple of cars/engines on the track, the rear portion, and just 1 car off in the middle of the train, you've got less of a "straight line" force, so the car off the road would perhaps be pushed further off the road maybe?
Further to the earlier remark about the lead locos staying on the road, that has happened over here in the UK recently too. The Hatfield derailment was caused by a broken rail but the first 3-4 cars stayed on the track.
Geoff M.
Posted by gct29 (Member # 1551) on :
quote:Originally posted by CarterB: . . . In other words, roadrailers and/or other 'tail end' equipment does not increase the possibility of kinetic energy causing 'bunching' of passenger equipment in braking situations? . . .
Any train can "bunch." I think the point is that the roadrailers did not pose any greater a danger of causing this than other Superliners would have. That is to say, poor makeup of the train was not a factor in this crash.
Posted by reggierail (Member # 26) on :
Thanks gct, the point I was making was that as previously reported, the auto railers were much heavier than the Superliner cars in the consist, which is not true. Once you have a car on the ground its resistance to moving would greatly increase. The cars behind still being on the rail would have much less resistance to movement & of course would try to squeeze the other already derailed cars forward. Reggie
Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :
"Secondly, P40 engines have a red button that is pushed to activate the emergency brakes. Pulling a cord is something out of old train movies as in older passenger cars."
The SII's (and I's) still have a cord, which they (the media) may have been referring to. I guess "pull the cord" lives on with "fireman" and a few other terms. That big red button is impossible to miss, too!
I also read a report about "the mangled passenger cars lay askew along the tracks." They were hardly mangled... And mangled is hardly the word to use.
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 04-22-2002).]
Posted by Ken V (Member # 1466) on :
Thanks Eric... A very interesting article. There was one statement I noted in there which may alay the fears of some train travellers.
quote:But safety statistics can be misleading.
For example, the number of derailments jumped almost 20 percent in the past four years to nearly 2,200 last year. But more than half of those were freight trains that derailed inside railroad switching yards, which are closed to the public, Flatau said. "Dropping just one wheel off the track is considered a derailment," he added.
I believe all forms of public transportation to be very safe. Although I've (so far) been accident free in every mode, except on foot, I feel safer while riding on a train, plane, or bus than I do in my own car.
[This message has been edited by Ken V (edited 04-22-2002).]
Posted by Amtrak207 (Member # 1307) on :
I'd take a '57 Budd Heritage coach over my Volvo any day. As for the press using "mangled" and "askew," that falls in with my complaints about "overturned."
Buy a better thesaurus.
I'm always looking to upgrade my facts... Anyone ever seen a high-level passenger car actually flip over? I know of a wreck in 1988 or so where the Builder ended up taking a crossover at speed and rolled both engines, but not much was said about the equipment. Please help if you can.
Posted by Kairho (Member # 1567) on :
Don't feel too bad about the poor quality of reporting. I'm a commercial pilot (not airlines) and you should see how they mangle (correct usage here) air accident reports!
Although most national correspondants (Bob Hagar and others) seem to do pretty well, below that level it is pathetic.
Then again, these guys keep talking about scuba divers "running out of oxygen," not realizing that it is extremely rare for a diver to be using oxygen in the first place!
Makes one circumspect of ALL reportage.
Posted by 1ring2bind (Member # 1571) on :
Another fatal accident in California today. It was a Metrolink passenger train, which is operated by Amtrak.