Will CHINA beat us with good Rail transportation soon and should our Republican administartion be ashamed of itself in NOT planning for the future of our growing country with new and more extensive public transportation while gas prices discourage auto use and the highways are overcrowded? According to RAIL TRAVEL NEWS (this current issue #666---June 15th, 2005) CHINA is about to build 9 new rail lines and is about to this year start construction on a high speed rail line for $1.5 billion (USD) as a response to every growing higher fuel prices and a growing population. Soon China will surpass us and they will be the world leader while our Republican Party leaders are concerned with a failing war in Iraq and Afghanistan and events like the Terry Schiavo affair. What do you think!?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
While likely off topic at a passenger railforum, it was little known but true that during 1980, there was a bona fide "overture" on the table by Japanese maritime interests to acquire MILW Lines West.
Folks, that would have been the hottest of hot setups. In the hands of the maritime industry would be a line dedicated to the movement of containers. Further, the Port of Seattle would have thrived instead of being a backwater to LA/Long Beach as it is today (a principal factor AFAIC is that there is only one direct East-West rail routing). A 60 hour schedule to Chicago would not have been unreasonable. Further, at that time, the ERIE was still intact; had these same interests, or possibly in alliance with European maritime interests, been able to acquire the ERIE as well, 84 hours "coast to coast" would have been quite doable. A reliable 84 hour secedule would have made a "land bridge" concept (transload containers from vessel at Seattle, rail to New York, transload to vessel) quite workable and competitive with "round the Cape' Asia-Europe all-sea routings.
But, that proposal wen't nowhere, there was simply too much anti-Japanese sentiment at that time for the idea to go anywhere.
And the Japanese are considered as "our friends".
Now enter China and I guarantee the resistance to doing business with the "Reds", "Commies', or other derogatory name of the day, will magnify greatly over the Japanese resistance prevalent during the 80's. Joe McCarthy, the demagogue of demagogues at least in my lifetime, will rise from the grave. Somehow, I don't think they will get to "first base' with the proposed acquisition of Union Oil, and not even get off a "sacrifice bunt" with any acquisition of a US transportation company.
Posted by mikesmith (Member # 447) on :
Pojon, I think you are hopelessly misinformed. Do you still think Iraq is costing a billion dollars a day?
Of course, being hopelessly misinformed is exactly what the liberals/socialists are looking for; so you're their "man"!
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Given the absolute refusal on the part of our elected leaders to be more creative in their approach to mass transit in the United States, I can envision a scenario where we begin to resemble perceived third world countries (ie: Mexico) with our striking absence of passenger rail transportation while China becomes the latest country to overtake us. Actually, they may already have.
David Pressley
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
MIKESMITH I got my China info from the current issue of RAIL TRAVEL NEWS (iSSUE #666---jUNE 15TH, 2005) which just came to my address yesterday---not from my imagination! Understand!!!??? Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
MIKESMITH It looks like you as a Republican Party--conservative sympathizer will just love the demise of Amtrak! Isn't it so? Come on, tell us the truth! You've been sent here to help kill Amtrak along with Pres. Bush and Norman Minetta--correct?
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
Why do some insist on using this site for political purposes?
The previous administration had similar policies, and remember Jimmy Carter's administration and their approach to Amtrak.
Let's try to be objective about issues we may have some influence over. Example: Last week I was in LAUT to catch the 8:30 AM Surfliner and found the bathrooms (wife along) absolutely filthy A later conversation with a friend who is a conductor for Amtrak advised me that this is not unusual. Whomever is responsible for maintenance of this beautiful station should be fired, sued, or payment withheld until they do their job, pick one.
The smaller things where we have specific knowledge are where we can be most effective. The larger issues such as this one; well we just cannot begin to analyze the many factors.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Pojon: 1. Your politics both stink and are irrelevant to the issue you raise. You need to recognize that not everybody is a knee-jerk or just plain jerk Bush-hater, and such stuff has no place in this discussion. I personally felt that the other party's candidates both 2000 and 2004 were losers, but part of that is because I was well acquainted with Gore, Sr. from a child as a born Tennessean and saw no redeeming feature in Jr. As for Kerry, that guy turns my stomach, and that is about as polite as I can get concerning him. End of politics.
2. China is not doing what they are doing with rail to compete with anybody, but because this is what the leadership thinks the country needs. They are also spending huge amounts of money on roads, including some major freeway like toll roads. However, this is all done on a base of near zero. Their rail system has a long way to go to be as functional as that in India, which is a much better model for comparison than the US.
3. China's huge investment in railroads is not new news. They have been adding an average of 1000 km of route per year to their system for about the last 15 to 20 years. They are also making major investments in all parts of their system. Most cities that have rail between them, and not all do, have multiple trains daily. They are starting a few high speed schemes, and are paying for some fairly minimal foreign expertise for assistance in them. That is why it has become international news. All the other things they have been doing they are doing primarily without outside help. Most of their work is actually for freight needs. The Communists have somewhat better than doubled the size of the country's railroad system since gaining control in 1949. That is not as impressive as it might sound when you remember that this is now 56 years of the PRC, and the Nationaist government in its 38 years (1911 to 1949) never fully controlled the country and spent almost half its existance in a state of war with various feudal warlords, Mao (with Stalin's assistance), the Japanese and various combinations of the three. Very little railroad was built under the monarchy pre-1911, other than post-1895 in Japanese controlled Manchuria.
Some statistics copied from the 2005 Railway Directory:
USA stats consist only of BNSF, CSX, NS, UP, KCS, Guilford, FEC, and Amtrak
China - 73,000 km = 45,360 miles India - 63,120 km = 39,220 miles USA part - 186,500 km = 116,000 miles
Equipment - engines, diesel plus electric China - 16,000 India - 6,900 USA part - 20,200
Equipment - freight cars China - 510,000 India - 200,800 USA part - 420,700
Equipment - passenger cars China - 40,200 India - 32,730 coaches + 4,800 self propelled USA part - 1,360 + 18 acela sets (no commuter systems included)
Freight Traffic China - 1,724,000 MTkm = 1,178,000 MTM India - 353,200 MTkm = 241,400 MTM USA part - 2,040,000 MTkm = 1,400,000 MTM
MTkm = million tonne km (metric ton of 1000 kg) MTM = million ton miles
Passenger Traffic China - 479,000 million psgr-km = 279,600 million psgr-miles India - 515,000 million psgr-km = 320,000 million psgr-miles USA part - no figures, just for Amtrak 25.8 million passengers
Both the Chinese and the Indian systems have about 1,500,000 employees and the list of American companies have about 160,000.
Not quite as impressive now, is it? India is actually carrying more people on less track. And, oh yeah, the China statistics do not include Taiwan which is not now nor ever has been subject to the current government in Beijing. Taiwan has a quite nice 1000+ km railroad system of their own and are building a 350 km high speed line at the current time.
George
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
Many thanks for your detailed and factual response. It's great to get such a strong reaction on something important. Remember, I am only quoting an article in the current issue of RAIL TRAVEL NEWS (Issue #666--June 15th, 2005).
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
Pojon: "It's great to get such a strong reaction on something important."
Yeh, it's really, super-important. And you didn't even mention China's staggering superiority in ricksha urban transit systems.
And "remember, I am only quoting an article..."
And doing a little political flame-throwing to boot.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
Looks like "flame throwing" I did as you so lovingling call it and the many telephone calls and e-mails to congressmen and senators I and my wife and kids worked now that we can feel relief in the House's action yesterday restoring the Amtrak budget to $1.7 billion and in rejecting the administration's proposed Amtrak budget cuts that would have killed the Amtrak you seem to love.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Remember, Mussolini was great because he made the trains run on time in Italy. Much as I would like to see Amtrak funding increased by a factor of five to ten, there is more to life than passenger trains. There are so many small medium and large horror stories in China due to the opressiveness of the current government and system that somehow what they are doing for their rail system loses both its significance and its relevance to goings on in the same field in the US.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Will CHINA beat us with good Rail transportation soon and should our Republican administartion be ashamed of itself in NOT planning for the future of our growing country with new and more extensive public transportation while gas prices discourage auto use and the highways are overcrowded? According to RAIL TRAVEL NEWS (this current issue #666---June 15th, 2005) CHINA is about to build 9 new rail lines and is about to this year start construction on a high speed rail line for $1.5 billion (USD) as a response to every growing higher fuel prices and a growing population. Soon China will surpass us and they will be the world leader while our Republican Party leaders are concerned with a failing war in Iraq and Afghanistan and events like the Terry Schiavo affair. What do you think!?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)