I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but according to my Amtrak management sources, they are looking at some serious service curtailments to implement during the Fall schedule change. My info regards mostly service in the East.
Examples include... Making the Silver Star coach and lounge car only... and possibly baggage car service.
No diner service on 59/58.
Curtailing dining car service om 19/20 whereas it would not be operational the whole trip,I'm assuming like they do with 21/22.
Possibly curtailing checked baggage service on other trains as well.
Part of the motivation is cost savings, and part of it is the inability to obtain wheels for the heritage equipment!???
This is a partial list of the options being considered for this fall. I will keep you posted as I hear more.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
We need to get a message to Mr Gunn for the restaurant industry to run the diner coach. I'm not sure this will work on all trains, but it would work on the bad boy Sunset Limited.
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
I am so tired of hearing about parts not being able to be had for the Heritage equipment, and thus delay in repairs or "we'll have to scrap'em" or they are put on the out of service list. Fact remains, there's plenty of these Heritage cars operating in North America. Call VIA and ask for some wheels. Supply parts for any of Amtrak's equipment is not easy to come by for that matter.....nobody is turning out Superliners or Viewliners in vast quantity.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
In an interview, Gunn said Amtrak top priority is to repair the 100 coaches and many engines sitting in storage. And daily service on the SL.
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
I hope they don't do anything to the diner on the Sunset! I just got back from a round trip to disneyland on the Sunset and the food was delicious!
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
I agree, get the restaurant industry involved. The idea of killing food service on a train that goes to New Orleans, food capital of America, is incredible.
MDRR--can you explain about curtailing dining service on the Crescent? Is it definite? What meals will be served?
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
For one who's longest trip was NY to Montreal and New Haven to Pittsburgh with most of my trips being within the Northeast corridor. I'm wondering, how long a trip does one need to be served dinner and what "star" rating do you need? I can get by with a cafe car I don't need linen and silverware. I guess what I'm looking for is info about coast to coast travel are there stations that have lay overs which train travelers have time to eat at a nice local restaraunt and have snacks on a cafe car? What is the expense of stocking a dinning car for Amtrak? Are meals included in price of ticket? How many LD riders use the dinning car? What type of meals are they looking for? what would they be satisfied with? Bar food, Diner? Subway and/or McDonalds? I'm interested in what are Long Trippers think of the state of meals on rails!
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
As one who has taken a couple of long distance trips, I think I can write from some authority. Though I don't know what the expense of stocking a dining car is for Amtrak ( and, most likly, it is a closely guarded expense), I can tell you that the only place where I have had enough time to get a meal at a nice local restaurant is changing trains in Chicago. Many LD riders use the dining car, primarily for dinner but also for breakfast. Lunch, in my experience, was the least attended meal aboard. Most of my meals, with a couple of exceptions, were worth the expense. If you take away the diners, this will have a negeative effect on the ticket sales that will outpace whatever savings you might have from not running a diner.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Dining cars on trains are more than just a means to feed passengers. They are part of the total railroad experience that cannot be equaled in any other mode of travel. Even when I am traveling coach and too full to eat, I still can never resist going to all 3 meals in the dining car.
You get to meet your fellow travellers who may not venture into the lounge. Sometimes the conversations become so engaging that no one at the table leaves until the staff throws them out. Once I even met an astronaut. Just as a rail adventure allows you to see parts of America you would not otherwise see, your chance dining companions allow you to meet people you would not otherwise meet.
Any fast food chain meal convinces me I do not want to make the same mistake again for a long time. I have never had a bad meal on a train. This is the anti-fast food experience -you have all the time you need to enjoy your meal cuz for once you get nowhere else to be.
At $8-22 for a meal and a full house, I do not know why they don't make money. Many times I have been turned away because every reservation time was full. Maybe if they could have longer hours they could increase their revenue relative to fixed expenses. Maybe a restauranteur could do a better job. But if they mess with the traditional railroad experience, they could lose business.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
It doesn't have to be fast food. Joes Crab shack coach or Jason Deli coach.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Amtrak's internal rumor mill is up and running again. As before, the alleged source is somewhere in management. Occasionally these stories make it into this forum or others, only to whither into oblivion when the rumored deadline comes and goes without incident.
For example, back in March I got an e-mail from an aquaintence who is an Amtrak engineer. He said the Amtrak board was soon going to issue a 180 day notice to shut down all long distance trains. This person was convinced, because he heard it from a "manager" that he would be out of a job by the end of the year. This rumor ran all over the internet for several days, and turned out to be completely false. It would seem that certain individuals in some capacity as "management" at Amtrak will believe almost anything, and pass it along to their emloyees as fact.
Maybe there's something to this one, but my guess is there's not much, or something has been misinterpreted as it filtered through the ranks, like the child's party game of telephone.
Yawn.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Tanner --- to answer a couple of your questions. Sleeper reservations come with meals included. Coach is a you pay for. When I take a long distance train I generally use coach for the first day --- sleepers for the rest of the trip. Meals are good but definitely not 5 star dining. Think of your favorite family resturaunt that is a few cuts above fast food. The lounge car stocks snacks and microwave food. Depending on your view of microwaved pizza slices and reheated hamburgers and hot dogs it is adequate if not especially tasty. (My opinion) On most of my trips layovers between trains have allowed me to catch a bite in the station (Chicago) but not enough time to venture out of the station for a meal. During the trip, stops along the way are not long enough to eat locally. While I can manage a day of snacks and take along food --- beyond that a diner car becomes necessity. It has been my experience that most sleeper car passengers take advantage of most of the meals provided. I will occasionally skip lunch if I take a late breakfast and an early dinner. It is just an estimate - but I would say that many coach passengers will take at least one meal a day in the diner car -- about 20%. As to what type of meals I am looking for while traveling --- it is definitely not fast food type !! I am a senior citizen and do sometimes wish their was a senior menu -- especially for lunch meals when a half sandwich and/or a cup of soup would be sufficient. Dee
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
It's amazing how rumors take on a life of their own. It would seem that Mr. Mineta's comments of several months ago that Food service was one of the big reasons that Amtrak was losing money....and the recent DOT report about axing amenities have caused this sudden rumor appearance. Like Mr Toy, I say let's wait until the fall Schedule and see what happens. Methinks there will be some change (there usually is when the schedule changes), but I sincerely doubt that this rumor will come true!
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
Rumors are a means of entertainment, especially for railroaders. Having worked for a major RR for many years I occasionally created a rumor as did friends. We tried to outdo each other and it seemed that the more outrageous and illogical the more likely it was to take legs.
I told one over lunch in a restaurant with other associates at the adjacent booth and within two hours I was receiving a phone message from an office 1800 miles away seeking confirmation, but their version was already modified from what I had started.
I am still seeking confirmation of the story posted on this site that the State of Arizona is now the owner of the SP/UP line west from Phoenix. If this is true it has escaped my detection, however, I travel a lot and could have missed it
Posted by clwood (Member # 3297) on :
I sure hope neither meals nor checked baggage are discontinued. For a while we had no checked baggage at LSE, and it was miserable travelling while toting a toddler, her necessary amenities, AND luggage. And whether or not you might be able to get off the train to grab some food in near a station, it's much easier to stay on the train with little kids. Amtrak seems to really stress the family angle in its advertising, and a good many of its passengers, at least in my travels, are little kids and their parents.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Amtrak problem is not the amenities, but how they run the service amenities. Amtrak should be breaking even on food. Amtrak should be making millions on mail. Amtrak needs to let the pro's do the amenities and Amtrak run the train.
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
I'm not sure there would be any company that would be willing to run food service on Amtrak trains. They would have to not only buy the food, cheaply, and cover the entire system while doing it, but hire personnel to do the cooking and serving. With the way train schedules are and the amount of traveling needed, who'd want to work for peanuts and be stuck far from home at the end of the journey?
Could they do it any cheaper? Maybe, but then watch the food service go down and we'll soon be getting those nice little airline style meals on a TV tray. Umm Umm GOOD!
As to carrying the mail, Amtrak was only carrying 2nd and 3rd class stuff and I wonder how much of it there really was and how much money they were really making carrying it? All I know is that it certainly added hours to the trip when the mail cars had to be cut out of the consist.
Posted by North American Railroader (Member # 3398) on :
I agree with gp35, I just don't see how restaurants can make money, while Amtrak's food service falls into the red. Lodging the workers is not the problem, several hotel chains house their maids and other employees, and yet they still cut a profit. For one thing, the menu is priced too high. It's a fact that people in the coach are heavily descouraged from eating in the diner because a hamburger costs $8 when it should cost $5 or $6. In addition, why not act like a restaurant. I know that it would be an untested idea on a train, but why not keep the diner open between meals? Why does the diner need transition time, why regular restaurants do not. There have been several times that I have been scheduled to board a train at nine or so in the morning, and have instead eaten breakfast earlier because I don't know if the diner will be serving. That's the problem, the scheduled dining hours are too eratic. While lunch on the Sunset may be from 11:30 am to 3pm, on the Silver Star in may only be from 12pm to 2pm. Why not just operate from 6am to 9pm, or at least standardize the system with some degree. Of course, some dining atttendants, as we all know, are just lazy.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
I was just about to add that. The dining coach need to be open all day, closed during the midnight hours. Also nation wide food chains own their own distribution centers. A chain could make a profit on Amtrak. The chain would need 4 people. A cook, waiter, table cleaner, and cashier. 300 people on the train can support just 4 workers. No electric bill, no property taxes, and free cross country advertising.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I think the main reason they can't keep the diner open all day is because they need the time to set up for the next meal and the servers need a break. In a restaurant there are three sets of servers,here only one, Also the kitchen is very small and they only have room for one set of meals at a time. There is only one chef and one or at the most 2 assistants. If you are interested in how the kitchen works read the book ZEPHER. It is very interesting.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by jgart56: I'm not sure there would be any company that would be willing to run food service on Amtrak trains.
The North Carolina DOT has not been able to find a new outside contractor to provide food service on the 'Piedmont'. They had one early and then another but the contract expired and the vendor bailed. Apparantly they couldn't turn a profit on a rolling concession stand.
Sad really.....for a while food service on the Piedmont was unique (like fresh NC BBQ as a menu item) and better than on regular short/medium haul trains.
The DOT requested bids for a new food service contractor but none stepped forward.
Posted by North American Railroader (Member # 3398) on :
notelvis; here's what the Piedmont really needs, Bullocks BBQ. Man, that food is great, best BBQ in Durham!
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
"The DOT requested bids for a new food service contractor but none stepped forward."
What does that say? And I believe that in the days of private railroad operation, they didn't make money on the diner either (although there may have been some who did OK). I agree prices are a little high, but since the numbers aboard each train fluctuate everyday and the numbers who use the service probably fluctuate every day, how they can even manage to get the amount of food right is beyond me. Maybe Amtrak needs to hire a chef consultant to help with this.
I think for the workers, much has to do with logistics, space, and the ability to tolerate enclosed areas. Green Frog has a video out called "Empire Builder" and while it's a little old, it does have a birds eye view of the kitchen in a Superliner and the people working in it. It gives you a better idea of what the staff have to go through who work there and the incredibly small space they work in.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by North American Railroader: notelvis; here's what the Piedmont really needs, Bullocks BBQ. Man, that food is great, best BBQ in Durham!
Oh gosh yes! This sounds good to me!
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
A couple of comments:
Dining car service was always considered a money loser by the private railroads so far as I know, but continued to operate where every it seemed reasonable to attract the ridership.
On average, the restaurant business has about the thinnest average profit margin and highest rate of bankruptcies as any business.
Going into food service on passenger trains is not going to be attractive to any business who analyzes the the situation carefully.
George
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by jgart56: I believe that in the days of private railroad operation, they didn't make money on the diner either (although there may have been some who did OK).
Some of the private railroads in the late 60's tried some innovative ways to provide acceptable meal service at a smaller net loss. The Kansas City Southern and Louisville & Nashville in particular outfitted portions of their food service cars sort of like a lunch counter and short order type operation. Pictures I've seen kind of remind me of the inside of a Waffle House actually. Relatively low cost hot meals could be served by a smaller crew.
Interestingly, Amtrak tried outfitting some of their Heritage diners used on the Silver Service trains much the same way with 8 seats at a counter in the middle of the car (between the kitchen and a regular table section).. I've never seen an Amtrak dining crew use the lunch counter area for anything other than a place to store the tableclothes and silverware though.
Posted by CHATTER (Member # 1185) on :
"I just don't see how restaurants can make money, while Amtrak's food service falls into the red."
Restaurants fail all the time, probably more than many types of businesses. Entering into a restaurant venture is generally considered a very risky proposition, especially for a small group. It is hardly, if you will pardon the pun, a guaranteed gravy train.
"Lodging the workers is not the problem, several hotel chains house their maids and other employees, and yet they still cut a profit."
I worked for a major hotel corporation for ten years. I have yet to hear of any hotel that has line employees living in it. Even in motels, this is extremely rare, and usually only is for members of the owner's family. But I am not sure what any of this has to do with Amtrak.
"For one thing, the menu is priced too high. It's a fact that people in the coach are heavily descouraged from eating in the diner because a hamburger costs $8 when it should cost $5 or $6."
Perhaps, but the full-service nature of the dining car is part of the equation.
"In addition, why not act like a restaurant. I know that it would be an untested idea on a train, but why not keep the diner open between meals? Why does the diner need transition time, why regular restaurants do not."
This is because a restaurant has much more room to work with and shifts of employees coming on at various times. If Amtrak were to suddenly start adding dining car employees, they would neeed additional space in which to house them. This starts running into major expense. And there would still be limited space in the dining car, where scores of people would still need to be fed. Many, if not most, people will still tend to come at traditional mealtimes, anyway.
"There have been several times that I have been scheduled to board a train at nine or so in the morning, and have instead eaten breakfast earlier because I don't know if the diner will be serving. That's the problem, the scheduled dining hours are too eratic. While lunch on the Sunset may be from 11:30 am to 3pm, on the Silver Star in may only be from 12pm to 2pm. Why not just operate from 6am to 9pm, or at least standardize the system with some degree. Of course, some dining atttendants, as we all know, are just lazy."
The latter statement is, of course, true, but the fact is that there are too many variables from one route to the next, including the station and service stop times, and large numbers of people coming and going at different times.
Posted by Pojon2 (Member # 4048) on :
What Amtrak needs VERY badly is to repair the more than 100 cars that need repair and the cars that they can renovate from the old collection sitting in California and Miami's repair yards. With all the accidents in the last 4 years, so many good cars are now not being used.
Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Interestingly, Amtrak tried outfitting some of their Heritage diners used on the Silver Service trains much the same way with 8 seats at a counter in the middle of the car (between the kitchen and a regular table section).
During one trip aboard the Lake Shore Limited, I ate lunch at the counter.
Every booth in the dining car was occupied, no one was rushing, I was hungry, so I pointed to a stool and asked the head steward, "Mind if I eat over there?"
She looked at me as if I was crazy, and then said "Suit yourself. I don't think I've ever seen anybody sit there before."