Illustrator Peter Bagge could have been a fellow passenger on one of my recent Coast Starlight trips.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
What a waste of paper and ink. It wasn't funny, and it certainly wasn't conducive to rational debate. It was just another in a series of mindless rantings from angry men who don't bother to look beneath the surface. The circumstances he describes do exist, but he has exaggerated them way out of proportion.
Some people criticize with the intent of helping to make something better. Others criticize with the desire to make something fail. This nonsense belongs in the latter category.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
I agree.....not funny.
Yes, I'm a railfan but there are rational arguments for a national rail passenger system other than just giving me something to do at taxpayer expense.
While I do travel in first class two or three times a year and have met other railfans on most trips, I have never been on a train where railfans comprised the majority of those riding in first class. I've never been seated in the diner with more than one other railfan at the table either.
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
Calm thyselves, Mr. Toy and David.
After all, it's just a comic strip. It's not meant to be a policy-wonk position paper.
My take is the illustrator (he lives in Seattle) didn't have a five-star CS roundtrip to SoCal. His observations are from the non-foamer point of view (remember, folks who just want to get from Point A to Point B also take long distance trains). These folks have a different take on poor on-time-performance, faulty equipment, and surly onboard service than we do (gee, we're ten hours late, but that means I get to be on the train ten more hours).
There was enough truth in the comic strip to make it funny (for me, which might explain why I did not get a Christmas card from the Toy's or David this year). On my last Starlight trip, I swear I met the same ensemble of characters in the Lounge. I caught the train in Chico, and it was over six hours late (David, didn't we determine we were on the same #14 in July that was 8 hours late into PDX?). The Parlour Car seemed populated by a number of foamers. And the "heavy" discussions among these fans about the cure for solving all of Amtrak's problems was increased subsidies (more than once, I heard the "Mr. Car/Airplane get more than Mr. Train" litany often heard hereabouts). Ergo my comment in the initial post that the illustrator and I might have been on the same train.
If anyone should take offense to the comic strip, it should be me. I'm a certified rail romantic; I'm a foamer; and I regularly take long distance trains. But I'm a realist to a degree, and I recognize Amtrak has warts. As do pax rail fans. And, Mr. Toy and Dave, warts can be funny.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Complaining about a bad trip is one thing. Stating that the trains are kept alive for the benefit of railfans at taxpayer expense is quite another. It is, in fact, untrue. Even for his legitimate complaints, which I agree with, by the way, his method of expression is counterproductive to finding a solution. I fail to see any humor here. Anger expressed with silly drawings is still anger.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by zephyr: On my last Starlight trip, I swear I met the same ensemble of characters in the Lounge. I caught the train in Chico, and it was over six hours late (David, didn't we determine we were on the same #14 in July that was 8 hours late into PDX?). The Parlour Car seemed populated by a number of foamers. And the "heavy" discussions among these fans about the cure for solving all of Amtrak's problems was increased subsidies
Guilty as charged Zephyr! I was aboard the same #14. I'll admit that the novelty of scenes normally passed in the nocturnal hours wore off for me shortly after Klamath Falls. I would have much preferred a Portland arrival say 3-5 hours late rather than 8. I suppose I missed much of the foamer conversation by retiring to my room for a nap after Klamath Falls. I came out for supper but otherwise kept to myself. (My guess is that the foamer crowd was getting a head start on the NRHS Convention.)
As for the comic book approach, I have no argument with much of what the artist expresses. The frustration of one delay after another is very real and I could go off on a huge tangent. Just ask me about CSX and frozen switches sometime! The bit about we have the bus but must wait for a driver actually sent me to the Southwest Airlines counter in the El Paso airport off an annulled 'Sunset' once too.....but I digress.
My beef is that by the last page or so, the artist has adopted the right wing 'shut it down' cry which for the past 25 years has contributed to things being what they are. It's hard to visualize the future when just securing the present is a constant battle.
Ohhhh.....and for the time-being, another trip on the 'Coast Starlight' is not something I'm planning!
Take Care,
Posted by zephyr (Member # 1651) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr. Toy: ...Stating that the trains are kept alive for the benefit of railfans at taxpayer expense is quite another. It is, in fact, untrue."
Might there be some truth in that (a smidgen, a dab, a modicum)? Wouldn't you say railfans are among the most vocal in saving long distance trains (as opposed to corridor and regional trains)? And, just maybe, aren't we (yes, I'll include myself) guilty of what Thomas Sowell calls "Spoiled Brat Politics." I like taking long, long train trips. I have other alternatives to "getting there," but I like taking the train. But I don't want to pay full fare. I want the government (all together now, just $5 per taxpayer) to subsidize my desires.
"...his method of expression is counterproductive to finding a solution."
First, it's a comic strip (solutions not required). Second, maybe you just don't like the implied solution.
As much as I enjoy LD travel, I find the present system hard to justify intellectually. You and others may, and I respect that. Personally, I'd like to see a huge increase in investment in corridor and regional services. Long distance trains should be cherry-picked (eliminate certain routes and the myth of a national transportation network), and service and amenities on the surviving routes improved to, say, VIA's Canadian standards.
"...I fail to see any humor here..."
Would it be funnier if a pane was added poking fun at Mineta or Bush (I believe the illustrator is a Libertarian, so he might be OK with that)?
"...Anger expressed with silly drawings is still anger."
I felt more love from the comic strip than from your post. And I certainly didn't feel any love from the absence of your Christmas card this year.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Truisms from the business world:
A firm gets only one chance to make a first impression.
A CUSTOMER (someone who pays for service) who receives just good service probably won't say anything to anyone.
A customer who receives superlative service will tell a couple of folks.
A customer who receives bad service will tell 10 folks.
GUESS WHAT: Amtrak has one service to sell: ON TIME TRANSPORTATION. Mr Bagge did not get that; worse, the shopkeepers (Amtrak OBS employees) had an attitude.
Amtrak blew its 1st impression. They blew it with someone who buys ink by the barrel. He used his access to the printed and electronic media to put his point out for God and everyone to see it.
Several here have seen me harp here, through the years, and a railroad.net about timeliness and quality of service. Mr Bagge's article is nothing more and nothing less than the birds of bad service and bad timeliness coming home to roost.
Posted by MontanaJim (Member # 2323) on :
the problem, zephyr, is many of the money losing trains serve communities that need the train to survive. (like the montana hi line communities). If congress would appropriate the amt that amtrak requests (about 1.8 billion) it could purchase new cars, upgrade its services.We need to find a way to put more pressure on the freight railroads to keep amtrak on time too. I believe that then more people would ride the train, and the routes wouldnt be so money losing.
like i told my landlord, who doesnt want the amtrak ld's to operate at taxpayer expense, thank the folks in these small communities the next time you have a steak, piece of bread, or a glass of milk.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Most of us can make a very valid argument for a balanced national transportation system that includes long distance rail. This cartoonist obviously has a more cynical viewpoint that chooses to ridicule without looking at bigger issues. I am sure there are air, bus or auto experiences that could be made to look just as undesirable.
Personally, to me the motley group of fellow passengers he describes is much more entertaining than a movie on an airplane. The potential to be 8-10 hours late means I get more entertainment for the money and some extra daylight scenery in the bargain.
Would anyone like to see a movie of someone traveling from point A to point B without incident or adversaty? Of course not! This is real life with uncertain outcomes. A totally predictable train ride is less than an adventure. This cartoonist just needs an attitude adjustment.
Posted by vline (Member # 1132) on :
As an Aussie, my favourite long distance passenger railway in the lower 48 would be Amtrak. But to me, as a railfan, Amtrak isn't a sacred cow. Some of its issues & problems are self inflicted and I won't go on about them from this standpoint. I loved the satire in the cartoon and I had to laugh at its truth & irony. Sure Amtrak needs some high profile advocates to support its virtues. It's really up to each individual state to recognise Amtrak's tourist potential and its virtues as a viable alternative to airline 'cattle class' and the 'are we there yet' interstate highway. And I said I wouldn't go on about some of Amtrak's problems Mike in Australia.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
Do any railfans ever jump box cars? no there could be a trip journal. "A Number 1 to Portland"
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
Actually, I think the article had more than a grain of truth in it (writing as one who loves LD rail trips as much as anyone), and its cartoony style gives it a sense of satire. Curt Catz finally has competition! Maybe Railfan magazine could reprint it. Thank God this guy was on one of Amtrak's BEST trains! I shudder to think what he would have written if he rode the Lake Shore or Silver Star/Meteor and suffered one of MY experiences. BTW, PullmanCo, on time performance is much more important on corridor and regional trains than on LDs. Their first selling point should be scenery and relaxation, with an understanding that "If you wanted to be on time, you would have flown".
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
Hey, I just finished reading Bagge's OTHER cartoons ! He's not too bad! What do ya think of his take on the Seattle Monorail? Nothing like a little local opinion.
Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :
Just stepped off an Empire Service train about two hours ago.
Apart from the absurd "funding rant" that fills the comic strip's final frames, the artist's overall take on Amtrak travel was actually fairly amusing (and, sadly, far more accurate than many "Amfans" seem willing to admit).
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I agree, there was more than "a grain of truth" in the cartoon, unfortunately. Of course we railfans know better, but Mr. Joe Q. Public, a potential AMTRAK rider who sees that cartoon, would certainly be discouraged from taking any train trips. Neither we nor AMTRAK need this "bad press," even as "truthful" as it may be. It's time for someone to admit the problems and shortcomings of the system and try to correct them.
Posted by BNSF 1088 (Member # 2400) on :
i will say there is 1 part i will agree with when there looking at UP RR Cars that don't move.
Leave it to the UP RR to screw anyone on there tracks.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
I wrote him an E-mail
Posted by Jerome Nicholson (Member # 3116) on :
I hope it was a nice, friendly one. We don't need him angry at us.
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
While Mr. Bagge's cartoon does have strong elements of truth in it, I would ask him the following questions:
1) Have you ever been bumped from a flight and had your vacation plans completely ruined? It has happened to me and to many people that I know.
2) Have you ever been scheduled for a flight and then had it canceled or delayed? It has happend to me and many people that I know.
3) Have you ever been driving down the free/toll/highway and your car has failed on you and ruined your trip? It just happened to me on Christmas eve...oil pan gasket went, car disabled and never made it home to Wisconsin for Christmas.
If he can answer that such has NEVER happened to him or his family or his friends, then he can complain chiefly about shutting Amtrak down.
Then again, I suppose it's his way of letting off steam. But really, that CSX 20 hour debacle and this cartoon has not helped Amtrak this week!
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
This "cartoon" is part of a web site/ web blog that I seriously doubt has a wide audience. I do not think it will cause any more affect than to raise the ire of a few rail fans. I would be more concerned about the wider spread reporting of the northbound train delayed in GA. It would appear that Amtrak may have mishandled this a bit. However keep in mind that we do not know the full story and have only comments made from a very few passengers. I personally will with-hold judgement until I hear a fuller story. In other words it may well turn out that it is no more than an "inconvenience" to many and a "tragedy" to a few who would find something to complain about no matter what. Dee
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I agre with you,Dee. Some people are never happy unless they can complain about something. As I saw the news reports I kept thinking about the woman who said from now on she will fly. I so wanted to remind her that last Christmas the air traffic was in a mess on the east coast and many people spent more that one night sleeping in the airport. At least she was on the train. Airport food is not exactly cheap either.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
Sometimes I wonder why people think that this could be better-
(notice most are on the floor)
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
Well spoken, everyone. Not to side track the discussion here, but if you were in a situation where you were the crew and the train was significantly (for example: 12 hrs plus) delayed, what would be some measures by which you would be able to win the non-rail fans back over? How would one deal with irate individuals?
Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :
quote:Originally posted by CG96: if you were in a situation where you were the crew and the train was significantly (for example: 12 hrs plus) delayed, what would be some measures by which you would be able to win the non-rail fans back over?
When a crowded train is 12, 15, or even 24 hours behind schedule (not to mention stuck on a siding in the middle of nowhere), the fact that the passengers are "late" soon becomes the least of everyone's problems.
Cafe Cars and Diners run short of food and drink. Supplies of toilet paper and paper towels dwindle to nothing. Retention tanks fill to capacity and begin to stink. Many of the toilets become totally unusable. And the train, overall, quickly takes on a squalid, trash-strewn atmosphere you'd normally find only in the Third World.
And if you throw some malfunctioning heating or air conditioning equipment into the mix? Plus a few screaming kids? Plus a tired and cranky crew who, to be fair, really have no satisfactory answers for the increasingly irate questions fired at them by dozens of sleep-deprived passengers? Forget about it.
Most of my rail trips have been relatively problem free. But during the two or three semi-nightmarish exceptions, even my own Amtrak-friendly patience and sanity have been pushed to the brink. And from what I've observed, there's nothing a crew member can do to win over the average traveler once the situation turns truly ugly.
Frequent announcements of the "When we find out, you folks will be the first to know" variety won't do it. Airlifting a hundred Happy Meals from the nearest McDonald's won't do it. Treating everyone to a fourteen hour bus ride won't do it. Nor will a full refund -- which is generally received only by those passengers who take the time (and trouble) to file a formal written or telephone complaint with Customer Service.
For some passengers, traveling by rail is the only transportation option. But for most, it's strictly voluntary. Adding an unexpected two hour delay to a four hour United Airlines flight is tolerable. But adding a ten hour delay to what's already a sixteen hour Amtrak trip is something else entirely.
It's sad to say, but whenever a train is horrendously late (regardless of the reason), Amtrak loses many of those passengers forever.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
quote:Originally posted by CG96: Well spoken, everyone. Not to side track the discussion here, but if you were in a situation where you were the crew and the train was significantly (for example: 12 hrs plus) delayed, what would be some measures by which you would be able to win the non-rail fans back over? How would one deal with irate individuals?
I'm not totally certain of the circumstances of the Silver train, but I'm guessing it was stranded in a location that was not easy to access for replenishment of supplies. Given that CSX might have arranged to have the train moved back to a more accessible location. Then there might have been more options for passengers to either wait it out or find alternate transportation. But its too late for that now.
Now, Amtrak should give full refunds without being asked PLUS a voucher for future travel. If I were David Laney, I would also send each passenger a letter of apology, along with a complete explanation of what went wrong. It should explain what issues were outside of Amtrak's control, and what measures Amtrak will take in the future to minimize inconvenience with items that are within Amtrak's control (i.e food and toilet paper).
Whenever there is a significant service disruption on the Capitol Corridor, the managing director Eugene Skorowpowski sends a message explaining the problem to everyone on their e-mail newsletter list (mostly people who are regular passengers), and publishes it on the website. Thus in the case of a 20 hour delay, a letter of apology would certainly be in order.
I also wonder if this problem would have gotten so far out of hand if David Gunn was still employed.
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
Amtrak has to make every effort to offer the following: 1. Punctual trains, even the ones that are arriving and departing in the middle of the night. 2. Customer service. 3. accomodations priced to provide value for #'s 1 & 2.
Like it or not, Amtrak has a rather significant image problem, caused by numerous failures to provide punctual service, surly employees, or combinations of both. Events like what happened over the New Year's train 98 are simply unacceptable, despite the facts that one can have traffic jams on the highways, and be delayed by serveral hours by cancelled flights, bad weather, etc. Amtrak has this reputation. While a caracature. this cartoon is how a significant portion of the population sees trains: slow, delayed, with surly staff. The general public often has no idea just how limited the capacity of the freight RRs is right now, and why. I would be upset at the decision to let the train depart Jacksonville, and, while I'm a rail enthusiast, I can empathise with those who have said "never again!" after the latest failure of Amtrtak management to deal with operational irregularities. Why could the train not be re-routed via Waycross, GA? I know when CSX bought the SCL and ACL, they removed the ACL line between Savannah and Jacksonville. What other options for detouring were there? That would be one of the things that Amtrak is expected to address, as one of the paying customer's expectations. CSX bears a portion of the blame as well, for failing to have track that meets expectations, too. What I've seen way too many times is the train crew offering excuse or explanations, while failing to offer solutions. The paying passengers expect solutions, not excuses.
Another thing I would do is to make Amtrak & CSX management read a certain text on excellence in organizational management. David Gunn gets kudos from me because, despite his flaws, he got out in the trenches with the common footsoldiers. Other members of Amtrak Management need to do the same - and away from the NEC, too. They should have to ride in coach overnight next to one of those environmentally "friendly" toilets, that stop up all too often. They should get out and ride trains like the Cardinal, the Silver Service, and the Sunset, just to see what *(&% service their crews inflict upon the paying customer from time to time. They should also mount a more vigourous defense of the LD intercity trains, as these serve nascent (sp? )corridors, which would have their infrastructure go away if the trains were discontinued. Like it or not, a significant portion of the traveling public will tell you of Amtrak trips that resembled what the cartoon drawer in the original post illustrated. It is very dissapointing, because train travel could be so much better (I'm not talking about "cruise trains" here, just improvements). The bad apples really need to go, and Amtrtak management needs to get on the ball.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
