If my memory is correct. First class was at the back of the train and coach was near the engines, back in the early 80's. Why did they switch?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I have wondered same myself, Mr Geep.
The railroads generally placed the Pullmans to the rear; Amtrak evidently has chosen to reverse, largely but not completely, that practice.
At one time, Amtrak's management culture was such as "this is how the railroads did it, therefore we will do the opposite'. I would hope there is a sound reason for doing so, as the further I'm away from "those things that make noise", the happier a camper am I.
Also of interest; cars on the head have a tendency to derail quicker than those on the rear.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
I was thinking wrecks and derailments must have something to do with it. Fewer people in sleepers than coach.
Several years ago the City of New Orleans train hit a truck, derailing, killing a few riders. I don't remember how many. Had that been a coach, instead of a sleeper....can you imagine. However on the end of that train were 3 MHC's. If those MHC's were between the engine and coaches, nobody would have died.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Of course, the Pullman Company's safety record is worthy of note; its last fatality occurred during 1951. It ceased operations December 31, 1968.
Posted by Vicki (Member # 3410) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: I was thinking wrecks and derailments must have something to do with it. Fewer people in sleepers than coach.
Several years ago the City of New Orleans train hit a truck, derailing, killing a few riders. I don't remember how many. Had that been a coach, instead of a sleeper....can you imagine. However on the end of that train were 3 MHC's. If those MHC's were between the engine and coaches, nobody would have died.
Mar 15, 1999 11 dead 120 injured Posted by PaulB (Member # 4258) on :
I think it has to do with the transition cars. Back when Amtrak ran high-level cars, they were coach/dorms. They had half of the car as a regular coach. So it made sense to put all the coaches together at the front.
Now with transition sleeping cars, it makes sense to put the sleeping cars all at the front together.
Posted by I Missed the Ma&Pa (Member # 4300) on :
I'd guess another factor for the historical placement of first class cars at the rear of the train comes with the use of steam engines. Being further from a belching steam engine would certainly seem preferable, as the steam would disspiate somewhat in the time it takes the train to fully head beneath an underpass. As well, the sweeping view possible from an observation car is only possible from the very rear.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
I thought that had something to do with the way the trains are consisted and assembled in the yards, and is done whatever way is the easiest. Rather than switch a bunch of cars around so the sleepers will be in the back, if it is easier to put them in the front, AMTRAK will do that, especially if the incoming train is late and there are time constraints to get the train consistsed for the next departure.
Some AMTRAK trains have sleepers in front; others have them in the back; and some have them in 2 different areas (like the Sunset Ltd between L.A. and San Antonio, where the Texas Eagle section in its entirety is at attached to the back (front?) of the Sunset consist.)
Posted by abefroman329 (Member # 3986) on :
My thought was that first class was at the front of the train because then the first class passengers were closer to the terminal upon arrival at the final station.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
In the propeller era, First Class was usually in the rear of the plane, furthest from the noise and vibration of the props. When jets came in it moved to the forward, quieter part of the cabin. I think the explanation of being away from the smoke, noise and dirt of steam engines makes sense.
On my last SW Chief trip I was in the "odd" sleeper at the extreme rear (except for express cars) of the train. It was nice and quiet with little traffic but a long walk from the lounge and diner through all the coaches.
Frank in, for now, dry SBA
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
But didn't the change come long after the steam engine were retired. I'm talking 1980's.
Posted by I Missed the Ma&Pa (Member # 4300) on :
I guess I'd have to go back and look at most of my streamliner books to get a feel for car placement on most roads before Amtrak, and before and after steam. My guess would be that one size didn't always fit all, for the varying perspectives shown here.
Perhaps an extra underlying reason why all-sleeper trains like the 20th Century, Spirit of St. Louis, or Broadway, had the extra surcharge, as when operating to a stub terminal there was less of a walk to the concourse.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
Well, the two railroads with which I'm most familiar -- Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line -- did it different ways. Seaboard sleepers were always on the head end of the train, while Atlantic Coast Line sleepers were on the rear. The silver teardrop obs cars on the Seaboard were always coach lounge cars.
I have no reason to suppose Seaboard was unique, so there were probably other Class Is that put sleepers on the front.
Amtrak seems to put things wherever convenient -- even dividing the sleepers between two ends of the train -- and of course obs cars are long gone.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
Somebody once said to me that 1st class was up the front because there is a smoother ride - less coupler slack than at the rear. To a certain extent it is true - but whether you can tell any discernable difference is up to you.
As haunting as an American train whistle is (bearing in mind our Brit whistles are completely different), hearing it blast dozens of times an hour while you're trying to sleep gets somewhat annoying!
Just as a point of interest, abefroman329 is certainly right for British trains.
Geoff M.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by rresor: Well, the two railroads with which I'm most familiar -- Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line -- did it different ways. Seaboard sleepers were always on the head end of the train, while Atlantic Coast Line sleepers were on the rear. The silver teardrop obs cars on the Seaboard were always coach lounge cars.
I have no reason to suppose Seaboard was unique, so there were probably other Class Is that put sleepers on the front.
Amtrak seems to put things wherever convenient -- even dividing the sleepers between two ends of the train -- and of course obs cars are long gone.
In the early streamliner era (late 30's and early 40's) these new lightweight aluminum trains, particularly in the south on lines like L&N, Southern, and Seaboard were generally coach only alternatives to the first class trains with heavyweight pullmans. I think this may be why those observation cars on Seaboard were bringing up the rear of a coach section. Later when these streamliners caught on there was a scramble to get new lightweight sleeping cars or, in a stopgap measure, try to refurbish heavyweight sleepers to more closely resemble the streamlined equipment.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
Another reason for Pullmans on the rear is that it made it easier to add or set out sleepers enroute as was often done. This also kept the sleepers away from the confusion of the head end activity as well as a shorter walk in stub end terminals. Besides, it was neat to be in the last sleeper and look out the rear. Clearly God and the Pullman company intended for sleepers to be on the rear. Without the MHC cars on the rear, that's what Amtrak should now do.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Anecdota; experience:
CZ, 1997: Sleepers at the back of the train.
CZ, 1999: Sleepers at the front of the train!
Posted by RRCHINA (Member # 1514) on :
I think palmland has the predominate reason ID'ed
Although there were always circumstances which created an exception the prominent LD trains had Pullman cars which were interchanged at locations such as CHICAGO and St LOUIS. This allowed the passengers to remain in their accomodations when their destination was beyond the end of the first carriers lines. Transfers between the Broadway Limited or the 20th Century and the Super Chief are obvious examples and many others may be cited.
An all AMTRAK operation does not create the logistical necessity to have the rear of the train available for easy switching of passenger cars so they have an easy option; and with MHC cars it is obvious that they are using the same tactic, only not for the 1st Class passengers.
Posted by MILW (Member # 2538) on :
I think another reason is that First Class Sleeping Car passengers travel longer and have advanced reservations for a longer period of time there might not be a need to drop a Sleeper in a consist. Whereas having the coaches at the rear means it is easier to add a coach or remove a coach based on fluctuating ridership and that offers more equipment flexibility.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Sleeper cars were put on the rear in the old days because that allowed more privacy for the first class passengers, and there was not a problem with coach passengers walking through the sleeper to get to the diner, etc.
Posted by abefroman329 (Member # 3986) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff M:
Just as a point of interest, abefroman329 is certainly right for British trains.
Geoff M.
That's where I picked it up; I noticed last summer that ECML and WCML trains, at least, were always oriented such that first class was always at the end closest to the terminal when departing/arriving in London. Believe it was the same on First Great Western though I can't remember for sure.
Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
Interestingly the Southwest Chief remained sleepers in the rear longer then the rest of the Superliner trains. Not sure why this was, but here are two logical explanations as to why sleepers were moved up front.
1) New (all sleeper) Superliner II Dorms:
As was mentioned above, the former dorms were Santa Fe Hi-Levels and were essentially half dorm/half coach. So it made sense to put the coaches together. When the "all sleeper" transitions began to arrive, (around 1994), the consists also began to change.
Also of interest, the Chief continued to have Hi-Level dorms a few years after the first Superliner II Dorms arrived. And it seemed the Chief was the last to finally completely convert to all Superliner II dorms. So this could be why the Chief stayed sleepers in the rear the longest.
2) Express/mail cars
Many crew members have told me that when the Southwest Chief ran with sleepers in the rear, that many passengers would complain of tugging, rough vibrations, and banging noises (I can certainly attest to these bangs and rough motions). These complaints started soon after the Chief began to haul 10+ express cars on the rear. So this may be why "1st" class was moved up front to reduce those express cars noises, and tugging feeling.
One more interesting note: The Desert Wind (at least to me) seemed to always have the lone sleeper up front since it received Superliners. The diner, or lounge was almost always the last car.
Posted by Geoff M (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by abefroman329: That's where I picked it up; I noticed last summer that ECML and WCML trains, at least, were always oriented such that first class was always at the end closest to the terminal when departing/arriving in London. Believe it was the same on First Great Western though I can't remember for sure.
Yes, all the long distance trains are scheduled to have 1st class at the London end of the train. Even the few remaining commuter trains that have 1st class also have 1st class at the London end.
Hmm, I've got a feeling Heathrow Express is at the Heathrow end... possibly because the exit to terminals 2 and 3 is at the front end of the train when arriving at Heathrow.
Geoff M.
Posted by abefroman329 (Member # 3986) on :
Could be due to the fact that the majority of first-class passengers are arriving and not departing, or maybe a holdover from the days when there was luggage check-in at Heathrow and therefore first-class passengers only had to carry luggage to the train at Heathrow?
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