Does someone here have a map showing the current route of the Empire Builder through St. Paul, MN? I am about to update my maps of that route. Last time I was on the Empire Builder, it followed the Mississippi River for quite a ways through St. Paul.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
OK Rich, the worm is gone from my computer (serves me right as it happened looking for a website to find out "All the News Not Necessarily Fit to Print" regarding the Tiger)- and I'm $300 lighter in favor of Geek Squad.
The Empire Builder passes through St Paul on the MILW to the present depot which is on the Minnesota Transfer RR.
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
Wow, Gil, $300 to remove a worm! The computer geeks down here will do it for around $100 if you don't mind going without your computer for a few days, and you remember to throw in a box of Dunkin' Donuts, and say please.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
I was mindful that there were likely cheaper alternatives, but they came when they said they would. I've gone the "take it in" route in the past where it was "about $100", but it was the series of frustrating "when will you have it...." phone calls that I remember all too well about that experience.
Also I had been "living with" this little problem which was more annoyance than anything. But that now is gone with good riddance.
"You get what you pay for".
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Thanks, Gil -- I know where the AMTRAK station in St Paul is, but I believe, according to my maps, there are at least 2 ex-MILW "mains" through the Twin Cities -- one along the river, and the other one (which I know at least at some time in the past was used) did NOT follow the river, but wound its way from Hastings to about Cottage Grove (NOT along the river), then a more "inland" route through Newport and St. Paul Park and eventually to the Transfer Rd station. (info from Google Earth)
Do you or anyone else have maybe a link to a detailed MILW (now CP) map showing the route?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Rich, I turned in my Profile Book when I left during 1981.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
There really was only one Milwaukee (now Canadian Pacific) mainline through St. Paul. The EB crosses the Mississippi at Hastings and parallels US 61 into St. Paul, where it follows the river through downtown. The ex-Milwaukee then leaves the river in downtown St. Paul and runs northwest, eventually runs along Ayd Mill road. After crossing Prior avenue it switches onto the Minnesota Transfer RR north a few blocks into the Amtrak Station.
Then, shortly after crossing under MN 280 (wave to me, I live two blocks south) and across Kasota St., it switches to the ex-Northern Pacific (now BNSF) mainline running northwest through Minneapolis which it continues on to St. Cloud and beyond. It sometimes returns eastbound by a slightly more westerly track running near the University of MN athletic fields. From about a mile west of the St.Paul depot it is all BNSF and no ex-Milwaukee no matter which tracks it uses.
From downtown St. Paul westward it runs close to the Mississippi but not in sight of it.
The last 2 or 3 miles of the ex-Milwaukee mainline into the old dead end Minneapolis Milwaukee Depot is now Hiawatha Light Rail. Same bridges and roadbed. Light rail leaves the ex-Milwaukee at the Humphrey Metrodome (MN Vikings) and runs on city streets to the new Twins Stadium where it connects with Northstar Commuter Rail (which shares the BNSF tracks with the Empire Builder).
Probably way more than you needed to know, but you could follow all this on a map.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks for the info; it will be useful when I finally get to Minneapolis/St Paul. Twinstar, when you say "St Paul depot" do you mean the current Amtrak station or something else?
If I were to visit St Paul & then wanted to go to Minneapolis, could I take the light rail? (I thought I had to take buses.) Does the Northstar Commuter Rail go anyplace interesting?
Thanks!
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks for the info; it will be useful when I finally get to Minneapolis/St Paul. Twinstar, when you say "St Paul depot" do you mean the current Amtrak station or something else?
If I were to visit St Paul & then wanted to go to Minneapolis, could I take the light rail? (I thought I had to take buses.) Does the Northstar Commuter Rail go anyplace interesting?
Thanks!
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Twin Star -- thanks for the info!! I believe I can follow the correct route through Twin Cities now, based on your info.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
A bit of clarification -- the Empire Builder uses the former MILW to an interlocking called "Merriam Park" on the east side of the Mississippi, where it diverges onto Minnesota Commercial. The Amtrak station is off University Avenue in St. Paul, and the light rail line goes nowhere near it. The LR stays on the west side of the river. From the Amtrak station, the EB can use either the BNSF "Midway Sub" which passes through Minneapolis Junction (junction with the BNSF Wilmar Line) or another route (I forget the subdivision designation. Either way, the EB stays east of the river through St. Paul, then crosses.
The Northstar commuter rail follows the former GN on the west side of the river into downtown Minneapolis. I believe the commuter rail terminates about where the former GN station was located (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
rresor is correct. Minnesota Commercial is the current name of what I called the Minnesota Transfer RR (old name) which hosts Amtrak for about 1.5 miles from Merriam Park to Hwy 280. The Amtrak Minneapolis St. Paul Midway station is on this segment. The EB does not cross to the west side of the Mississippi in the Twin Cities. This happens 100 mi north at Little Falls.
Northstar Commuter Rail leaves downtown Minneapolis running eastbound on the ex-GN Willmar sub, crossing the Mississippi just north of where the old Great Northern passenger station was on Hennepin Avenue. In northeast Minneapolis (called nordeast by the natives) it turns northward on the BNSF main -also used by the Builder. The Builder used the Willmar sub to Fargo until they discontinued the North Coast Hiawatha.
Sojourner, I did mean the current Amtrak station when I said St. Paul depot. The station is within the city of St. Paul but is between the two downtowns, slightly closer to Minneapolis. The only transportation is by waiting taxi, or by walking 2 blocks south to the University Ave bus which runs to both downtowns every few minutes. Ambiance on this line is not 5-star rated. This bus connects to Hiawatha Light Rail in Minneapolis. Light rail connecting the downtowns is being constructed on the same University Ave over the next few years, but there are also plans to for Amtrak to move into the magnificent old Union Station in St. Paul. This will be a transportation hub for light rail, commuter rail, intercity bus and eventually HSR to Chicago. I don't know of any dates yet but the Feds have allocated 50 million to start the process.
Northstar Commuter rail to Big Lake takes you through FLAT farmland and pleasant small towns along, but not in view of, the Mississippi. The Builder covers this area in the dark except for eastbound in the summer. I plan to try it soon just for the train ride. Since it is a commuter route all but one train are into the city in the morning and out at night. There is a bus connection into St. Cloud which can be a pleasant town to see on foot, but nothing outstanding.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Thanks again for all the info. Maybe I should wait to visit St Paul for that new-old train station to be refurbished. I am very excited to hear about it!
What about getting to Duluth? What is the best way to do it?
I also eventually am going to have to go to the state capitals in North and South Dakota, which both sound like they are going to be pesky to reach and involve buses, probably from Minneapolis/St Paul. I've put them on the back burner for now--maybe they will be #48 and #49 (Honolulu will probably be #50--although I'd just LOVE to go there. I looked into taking a cruise but it's too expensive and time-consuming for me right now, and they don't spend enough time in Honolulu, i.e., I'd like to see Pearl Harbor too.)
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by TwinStarRocket:
Northstar Commuter Rail leaves downtown Minneapolis running eastbound on the ex-GN Willmar sub, crossing the Mississippi just north of where the old Great Northern passenger station was on Hennepin Avenue. In northeast Minneapolis (called nordeast by the natives) it turns northward on the BNSF main -also used by the Builder. The Builder used the Willmar sub to Fargo until they discontinued the North Coast Hiawatha.
This junction that you speak of where the Wilmar sub joins the BNSF main -
Is that the junction where the Friends of the 261 until recently maintained their steam locomotive and originated their excursions?
If so, I now have a pretty good bead on the route you're describing.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
No, I don't believe the Northstar commuter rail runs as far east as Minneapolis Junction (which is where the 261 is kept). It would have to cross the Mississippi to do so. The old GN station on Hennipin Ave. is on the west side of the river, and I know the commuter rail runs through that location (the station was torn down some years ago). As noted by Twin Star Rocket, the Northstar trains cross the river north of downtown Minneapolis.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Gotta say, that Northstar service sure started up "on the QT".
Apparently the Nov 16 inauguration date was met.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Ten Million under budget too, Mr. Norman. I hope to try it soon.
rresor: Northstar crosses the river heading EAST right out of downtown on the old Willmar sub, about 3 blocks north of where the front door of the old GN depot was. I do believe where it turns north onto one of the BNSF mains (ex-NP) would be Minneapolis Jct. The old NP North Coast Limited would have had to use the same route to get from the GN depot to Anoka and west.
The GN west coast trains would have turned left (west) on the Willmar sub just out of the GN depot. GN used to have a secondary line branching off the Willmar sub just west of downtown and up the west side of the river along I-94. Most of that is now abandoned. It used to be the route of the GN Western Star.
Sojourner, there is a Jefferson bus connection on the Amtrak timetable to Duluth that runs out of the current Amtrak station. Times are geared to connect with the EB going to and coming from the west. Jefferson Lines are way nicer than Greyhound. Duluth is very scenic and almost mountainous, unlike any other city in MN. The waterfront is very nice and the old train station has a wonderful museum of old train cars. There is also an excursion train up the North Shore of Lake Superior to Two Harbors that is very scenic. I am sure the museum, waterfront, bus station and excursion train are within easy walking distance of each other. I highly recommend Duluth as a destination without a car. Actually, driving there is difficult because the hills are so steep.
Posted by CG96 (Member # 1408) on :
I second TwinStarRocket's recommendation of Duluth, MN. 20 years ago, I would not have typed that. Nowadays, I recommend Duluth. The Lake Superior shore is picturesque. There is even discussion in Canada about re-routing Via Rail through Thunder Bay, ON.
Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :
Thank you, Twin Star. I've always been a little hazy about MSP geography. I didn't realize the GN depot (which I took a train out of in 1970) was SOUTH of the GN Wllmar line.
And by the way, that train was the Western Star, through Alexandria and Fergus Falls, so I did ride that secondary (and now gone) main. I've never been west of Wilmar on the GN "main line", more's the pity.
I too recommend Duluth. It's a "real place" (my highest accolade), with a nice railroad museum and lots of other reasons to visit -- including the scenery on the North Shore. Just don't try swimming in Lake Superior unless you're a polar bear.