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Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
I pass this link along for your information:

https://www.riograndescenicrailroad.com/events/dinner-with-pullman.html

The Pullman Sleeping Car Company is another venture of the Iowa Pacific Railroad - the folks that, on one hand, brought you the stillborn Ski Train, but, on the other, the Saratoga & North Creek Railway, which I understand has operated it's scheduled trips (I'll defer to Ms. Sojourner as that is in her backyard).

From personal observation riding into town last evening, I'll confirm that a consist of five Iowa Pacific cars is parked at Amtrak's 14th St facility. It is comprised of two of their Big Domes (ex ATSF) liveried Rio Grande Scenic, some kind of Kitchen Car (unable to get a better observation), and on either end, two Obs-Lounges. One of these is KCS liveried and the other, a "butt-end', is liveried IC, which, if actually of IC heritage, was likely the mid-train Lounge on the Panama Ltd during my days at UofIll.

The fare reported at their website is $120; no mention of whether Wine and Tip are included - best assume not and be pleasantly surprised if otherwise.

Of course, the "mystery" of the unannounced route leads me to wonder if the equipment will simply be parked at CUS for "the event". After all, the premier Dinner Cruise vessel around here, the Odyssey, will all too often at Captain's discretion simply not sail leaving the passengers with a "dockside cruise'. Money back? "sorry 'bout that".

Also of interest is that with only a week to go before the first "trip', their website shows tickets available on-line "soon". Also, while this "goes way back" (well before quite a number here were even born) several IPRR principals were involved with promoting fan trips that were great at collecting $$$ for tickets, but "let's not go there' with regards to "contractual performance".

Oh well, I'll be out of town that weekend of Feb 17-19, so I'll have to pass on being "tempted".
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Here we go again, GBN, with another of Iowa Pacific's schemes. Lets hope it succeeds, unlike Mr. Ellis' express cars on Amtrak or their Ski Train effort. I guess the new Saratoga Springs train is doing well and certainly the Rio Grande Scenic is an excellent trip.

Interesting that they are labeling this their Pullman Car Sleeping Co. Looking at their 'Vision' page it notes:

"This project comes as a precursor to the launch of a first-class rail travel project scheduled for late 2012 with overnight services from Chicago to New York City and New Orleans. As we move further into the 21st century, many people are struggling to find an emotional connection with the past and the history of our country. Many will do this with travel. The Pullman Sleeping Car Company is designed and operated by people that live and breathe trains and the railroad legacy that is so rich in this country."

As you are aware, if a report on another forum is accurate, they do intend to get into this market by offering Pullman level service. Not the over the top high priced stuff like AOE or Grande Luxe, but good service and good equipment on a consistent basis at a decent price. If so, I'll ride them.

Any bets on if this train 'leaves the station'?
 
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
I believe I read on the Pullman site a few days ago that the "journey" was to Sturtevant, Wisconsin, and return. But that may have changed.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Before we get too "talkie-talkie" regarding Iowa Pacific, let's see if their planned Dinner excursions this weekend actually operate, or just end up as Dinner aboard some parked cars at CUS - and maybe not even that!!.

Here was more the "sure bet":

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=261
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Well volks, "tonight's the night"; I'll be out of town tonight (Cleveland; by auto), so I will only have second hand knowledge how (or if) the journey went off.

Interesting "snip" from the IP website:

quote:
Note: Friday dinner train tickets are still available via phone.
To reserve your seats please call 877-726-7245

Staging area and track number will be provided at the time of your reservation

Still, no info regarding the itinerary.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
From Marriott Downtown Key Center Cleveland--

I wonder how the Dinner With Pullman trip went off.

Incidenially, this hotel is X the street from Terminal Tower.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
How well I remember the Terminal Tower from the early days of my career. We had corporate offices there and it was a little intimidating to appear before the big bosses in that impressive building. It felt like a midwest Rockefeller Center. Too bad Amtrak left that location but I guess the light rail line to Shaker Heights is still there. As I recall, there was a hotel that was part of the Terminal Tower complex?

In the 50's the NYC had something like 30 trains there (although a few middle of the night streamliners did not make an official stop). Add in trains of the Erie, Nickel Plate and the B&O and it most have been quite place.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mr. Palmland, the hotel that was once a Sheraton is still there as a Renaissance. The Marriott at which I stayed is on the North side of Public Square.

During December 1962, I did ride the NKP to CUT;thence changed to the NYC #16, Ohio State Limited, onward to GCT. Incidentially, the Century never went through there; it took roundly the present day Lake Shore route through Cleveland.
 
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
 
I just happened to notice that both Palmland and Mr. Norman's "Post Counts" seem to be frozen. Has anyone else noticed this on their own posts?

Frank in sunny but cool SBA
 
Posted by HopefulRailUser (Member # 4513) on :
 
You're right Frank. I see mine is frozen too on the other thread. Wonder how long that has been going on?

I'll send a message to the Contact Us place.

Later -

Well, no I won't. None of the contact links work. Guess we will have to live with it until someone with real "contacts" can let the powers that be know about the problem.
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
Other than driving a few drum corps tours through Cleveland 25 years ago I've done nothing there other than ride through in the wee hours aboard the Capitol Limited.

In the dark from a train, Cleveland looks alot like Omaha.
 
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
 
The train went to Sturtevant where it was wyed before before return to Chicago Union Station.


Chris
 
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
Sturtevant, as the Pullman website said before somebody realized that wasn't the sexiest destination in the world to advertise. Heh heh.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
So it actually ran; hot diggedy.

Guess we've "made a little progress" in the delivery department since the Ski Train fiasco, and especially "Golden Arrow" over thirty years ago.

Finally, interesting to learn that the wye on to the R&SW (Racine & South Western, or "The Southwestern") remains active.
 
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
 
I reported the counter problem yesterday to Steve Grande.


Chris
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
From Trains Newswire - Jim Wrinn, it sounded like a good outing. Some excerpts from their report:

"CHICAGO — Iowa Pacific’s “Dining with Pullman” dinner and brunch trains this past weekend sold out and provided valuable training for the company’s planned Pullman service on the rear of Amtrak’s Lake Shore Limited and City of New Orleans passenger trains.

Iowa Pacific President Ed Ellis told TRAINS News Wire on Monday that the trips were run as a training experience for Chef Dan Traynor and the development team working on the Pullman Sleeping Car Co. LLC, which will launch Pullman service later this year, running as private cars coupled to the two Amtrak trains."

Apparently, in addition to the two E-8's (to be in IC colors) and the cars used on the dinner train, they have bought 6 ex-, MARC (PRR) coaches. How well I remember riding them out of Wilmington on the likes of the Legislator or Embassy. I believe most were originally 21 roomette cars the PRR converted in the 60's when the businessmen 'flew away".

Lets hope this continues to do well - excursions out of Chicago are planned for this summer before the Pullman experiment later in the year. Wonder what the Pullman accommodations will be?
 
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
 
Palmland,I hope the Pullman Service succeeds.But then I think of the fate the AOE or Grand Luxe service which was added on to the Amtrak LD service.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
20th Century, I would agree that Iowa Pacific is incredibly optimistic about this endeavor. But I think they have the right idea: to offer good, solid and consistent Pullman level service without all the high priced bells and whistles the previous efforts thought they needed to provide. Whether they can pull it off remains to be seen.

But their new web site makes me want to give them a try and hope very much they succeed (be sure to check out the videos). Note the web site's name:

Travel Pullman
 
Posted by mr williams (Member # 1928) on :
 
Hmm....I wish them well but also wonder whether it will succeed. Presumably, they've chosen those two routes as it will only be a one-night journey and won't stretch them at first logistically and operationally, nor price them out of the market.

Just taking the CONO as an example, picking a couple of random dates gives a base Amtrak fare of $147 plus $334 for a bedroom = $481.

Given that that gives you a self-contained en-suite berth with restaurant included what sort of premium do you think people would pay for a softer bed and a bit better food? Do the Pullmans have en-suite bathroom facilities?

Agreed, people will pay for the ambiance but just doing the maths makes me wonder whether this will run. Even with a $1,000 per head mark up on the Amtrak price it won't leave much once everything else is paid.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
While I remain skeptical about any success of this Iowa Pacific "Pullman" proposal, they likely would enjoy better acceptance from both the public as well as Amtrak employee relations if they were to select routes over which no Sleeping Car service is presently offered.

Chicago-NY via Pittsburgh and an interchange from Capitol Ltd to Pennsylvanian, or in Amtrakese, CHI-30-PGH-42-NYP and vv would be just such a route. Iowa Pacific would simply have to build into their rates the cost of switching at PGH, which would likely have to be done by an NS engine. Boston-Wash on the Night Owl, Federal, Shoreliner, 66-67, whatever would also be another route, for Amtrak reportedly intends to withdraw existing Viewliners so that they be rebuilt to match interior configuration and running gear of the new CAF cars (may or may not be named Viewliners),so there may not be additional cars available for new routes.

I note employee relations, as I have to question how "it would go down' amongst the ASWC brethren, if Amtrak "contracted out" work to presumably "non-union" IP employees. It is one thing to have a "PV" on a train, or even a specialized "luxoservice" like AOE was and where the railroad transportation was one part of a tour package, with "non-union" attendants; it is quite something else to have another company openly selling to the public single ride Sleeping Car (and apparently Diner) service using Amtrak trains as a vehicle - and "non-union" help.

I can only hope that Mr. Ellis has considered potential labor issues both on Amtrak and on his charter cars. I should acknowledge that Grand Luxe "hail Mary" sold single rides, were handled on the Amtrak Zephyr, and had non-union Attendants. But then, I think most here remember the shelf life of that gambit.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
I guess if no Amtrak employee loses their job, any protest seems a bit hollow.

But, carrying it to the other extreme, what if the Pullman scheme is wildly successful and Amtrak exits the sleeping car business? No doubt it would be to the delight of the anti Amtrak contingent: 'told you so - no need for federal funding of a premium service especially if service improves'. And they would be right. Presumably the Pullman Co. would hire (and retrain) the better SCA's. But, the odds of that happening are not much better than winning Mega-millions.

I like your notion of offering new service routes with existing schedules, but the added cost might be an issue. Wonder how Caltrain would feel about a through sleeper San Francisco-San Jose to the Starlight, either north or southbound.
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
All I am going to say is while the Postwar LW cars are some of the most marvelous engineering ever made, they are from 48-67 years old. The parts plants have long since closed.

Any mechanical issue is going to be ... exciting.

Pullman's advantage was it had storehouses throughout the Nation, and used common parts as much as possible. When something happened, they could deal with it quickly.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
The schedules and prices are now on the Pullman Sleeping Car Co. website. Click on the second news item "Introducing Pullman Rail Journeys".

Also of interest is the "Restoring An American Icon" items. What a great collection of pullmans. How about a bedroom in the Heavyweight Poplar Summit.

But the big question, is it affordable and attractive enough for the non railfan?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Here is a PDF directly to the proposed Pullman Rail Journeys services including effective dates:

http://www.travelpullman.com/media_files/IPH-005_SalesSheet1_FINAL_SR.pdf

Somehow, even if higher than comparable Amtrak service, I don't think the noted rates are the "end of the world".
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
I would agree, GBN. My dilemma - do we wait until one of their great old heavyweight pullmans are in service - supposedly 2013, or go for one of the 'modern' ones in service this fall. The downside to waiting - the enterprise may not last that long.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Best advice: use a Credit (not a Debit - a Credit) Card when making any required deposits. You have far more recourse "just in case.....".
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Now hiring... The Pullman Co.

Positions include: Waiters (not servers), Porters (not Sleeping Car Attendants), Steward (not LSA), Executive Chef, Chef, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cooks. The job descriptions sounds like they were from the original Pullman company operating manual.

Maybe this outfit is for real. A related item, from another site, reports another recently restored sleeper (and painted in Iowa Pacific's Illinois Central paint scheme) is enroute Chicago. It's the former PV Colorado Pine. Of particular interest to me as it was originally one of the 6 roomette, 6section, 4 DBR cars from an order for the L&N, NC&StL, and C&EI. This car was one of the four C&EI cars - Loblolly Pine. Service still expected to start this fall with cars a part of the CONO (an IC route) and the LSL. Ed Ellis must be having a lot of fun with this.
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
The employment page is already gone.

Let's hope they can make a go of it. The challenge with premium service is it's hooked up to an "adequate" passenger hauler on "adequate" railroad of a a freight system.

If you compare Amtrak timecards with EH Bowen's streamlinerschedules.com timecards for the great trains in the day, Amtrak is SLOW.

Can superior service trump so-so timecards?
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Thanks Pullman, so it is. Looks like a new web page and apparently they are on schedule with reservations now being accepted August 1.

I suspect a fast schedule is the last of the concerns of potential Pullman customers. For me, as long as it arrives same day I'm satisfied. But lets hope the trains arrive on time for 'normal' customers albeit much slower than 50 years ago.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Something tells me Ed Ellis may be wise after all; his decision to use 30-PGH-42 Eastward is wise in that 48's schedule and adherence thereto simply cannot be relied upon for any passenger to book a public event (theatre, concert, sports, whatever) evening of arrival.

Finally, what will be interesting to learn if he can handle his cars at PGH without the use of an NS Yard engine and on PGH's existing plant. If there is one storage track at PGH, then someone (it won't be 42's road crew as they have not even been called when 30 supposedly arrives) will have to drill 42's consist to place his cars be they on head or rear.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Yes GBN, a return to NYC on the Capitol / Pennsylvanian would have been preferable for lots of reasons, including Horseshoe Curve.

Unfortunately, the latest version of the eastbound schedule shows arrival in NY at 6:35pm - the time of the LSL. It appears Mr. Ellis had to cave to the union rules and bureaucracy of Amtrak. Rather than finding a a way to make new ideas work, Amtrak is good at finding reasons why they won't.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by palmland:
Rather than finding a a way to make new ideas work, Amtrak is good at finding reasons why they won't.

Well Mr. Palmland, we've both been there done that in this life. What else is new in railroading - public or private sector notwithstanding?

But I have to wonder what thought Mr. Ellis and his cadre gave to the point I immediately raised as well as to the multitude of other operational issues I did not. Another point to consider; how often has Amtrak handled other Private Cars ("PV's") in a 30-PGH-42 interchange? If Amtrak has handled, say, Creative Charters with this interchange, then why not Mr. Ellis? Possibly other operators accept that an NS Yard crew will have to be called (and for which they will pay), but Mr. Ellis had "on the cheap" visions of a Road crew doing the work.

Perhaps there were issues totally unrelated to the PGH interchange? Pullman Rail Journeys LLC, the Iowa Pacific entity, that will operate the service first announced that their Chicago-New York service would operate Eastward using #30, Capitol Limited, to Pittsburgh, then an interchange of the cars to #42, Pennsylvanian. Westward, the service would use #49, Lake Shore Limited. However, as Mr. Palmland immediately noted, that Amtrak had scuttled the proposed plan stating that the service will operate on 48 and 49; period.

From a marketing standpoint, this would certainly enhance the travel experience. First, considering that The Pennsylvanian is reportedly quite reliable and the 450P arrival at Penn would enable the passengers to book public events in New York that evening with an adequate degree of confidence. Again as noted by Mr. Palmland, it would also enable viewing of Horseshoe Curve by daylight year-round. Westward, I guess one could say the Lake Shore's schedule is roundly that of The Century - well 100 years ago. I'm certain PRJ/IP has visions that their round end ex-IC Obs would be properly pointed in each direction.

But as I noted at my immediate post, I have to wonder to what extent IP properly considered the 30-PGH-42 interchange with the existing plant. Did they consider that an NS Yard crew would need be called and that they would need a source of "hotel power" (HEP) to keep the passengers from "freezin' or fryin'" as the case may be. Will Amtrak even offer that interchange to other "PV" operators - even those who are prepared to pay for an NS Yard crew and have internal generators on their equipment. Did IP really think this one through, or did they just figure "the road crew can handle it"?

Possibly, the addition of four PRJ cars (two Sleepers, Diner, Lounge) would require a second P-42 unit to handle the consist on days PRJ operates. Obviously, this cost would appropriately be billed to IP.

There is, of course, no confirmation of this development beyond that their website http://www.travelpullman.com no longer has a link to the proposed schedule and fares. But, on the other hand, beyond its home page, I cannot access any of the links provided for, so, to give proper consideration, possibly the website is under construction and will be ready for the August 1 previously announced "rollout" for accepting reservations (along with assuredly a hefty deposit).

All told who knows.

I've known Ed Ellis since the later '70's and his "Aide d' Camp" Steve Gregory even before that. "On paper", they plan to offer a service that if the fare is within the league of a CHI-NYP Bedroom fare, I'd bite. But there have been just so many false starts from these folk, first with their 1970 circa Golden Arrow Tours, and their Ski Train, to make me put too much "faith", i.e. a hefty customer deposit, on the table.

I wish them well, but I also must acknowledge the caveats. If anyone chooses to do business with PRJ, I retierate use of a CREDIT (not a Debit) card; "just in case....." for any required deposits.

Something tells me that there is presently "Chaos on Clinton Street". Are there any houseflies that were on the wall at 60 Mass and 118 S. Clinton when the decision not to offer the interchange was made and that care to speak up?
 
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
 
Gilbert,

The fares and schedule are still there. At the lower right of the webpage is a media button. Hit that and then the introduction button on the media page. It looks like $1,050 would get you a compartment, bedroom, or roomette.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mr. Black, even though nothing beyond Daisy Buchanan staring glowingly at Nick Carraway comes up for me, I'll accept that in so much as my computer is presently having "issues".

I need to get Geek Squad in here; also Comcast as I have issues with them as well - both computer and TV.
 
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
 
Gilbert,

Sorry to hear about your "issues". Nevertheless, that quoted price is not much above an LSL bedroom. It would be quite an accomplishment if they can pull it off.
 
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
 
Gilbert,
I am having the same problem as you. I click on next, or media and nothing happens with either action. I also wanted to enter my email for updates but couldn't. Don't know why, but I also have Comcast. I hope this rail venture is successful.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Works ok on an IMac. Now shows a start date - October 5 for New Orleans (my birthday) and November 18 for New York.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
On the back of 06(05) is a Northern Pacific dome sleeper lounge used on the North Coast Ltd. It's enroute Chicago - Wisconsin for repainting into IC colors then MidAmerica shops for interior restoration. Now owned by Iowa Pacific and will be used in Pullman service. Check it out GBN.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Well lest we forget, six of those NP Dome-Sleepers were assigned in season to both the City of Miami and the South Eind. Those assigned to the South Wind stayed in their NP livery; however those assigned to the City were repainted each season into IC.

Talk about wanting to "do it right".
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Interior 'needs work' - got a quick look at Grand Jct stop. But, sounds like IP intends to do it right.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Well, maybe just maybe, that outfit is for real, for once.

But they could start with getting their website to work; I'm getting a "little tired" of only seeing Daisy gazing pensively at someone whom I would guess is Nick.

addendum: Aug 25; there are now a few more photos in addition to Daisy and Nick; also of interest, a page about the refurbishment work on their fleet.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Pullman Rail Journeys website has been updated.

For those of us who enjoy train travel as it should be, this looks like the ultimate.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Well, it appears Mr. Ellis and his crew have emulated Gordon Gekko; "Greed is good".

October 5: "on the head", i.e. CHI-#59(5)-NOL; RM $342.

On the rear: CHI-PRJ(5)-NOL; Lower BERTH $900.

"We report, you decide".
 
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
 
Soooo?! What happened? Clicked on my bookmarked Rail Pullman journeys and it seems to be not found or under construction....whatever. Does anyone have inside info on this once promising classy rail conveyance?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
At this time, www.travelpullman.com is active. There is no mention of CHI-NYP service and CHI-NOL is presently accepting reservations for CHI departures Oct 29, Nov 2, 6, 10, 14, Dec 12, 19. There is no reference if other days are being operated but at present are sold out - just nothing.

Stay tuned for more....
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Last week, Trains.com quoted Ed Ellis as saying:

"Ed Ellis, president of Iowa Pacific, tells Trains News Wire that additional dates will be announced after the October-November trips are evaluated."

Sounds like a sensible approach for a speculative venture, but I wonder why he didn't start with that plan? Makes you also wonder about his marketing department (if any).

'Trains' goes on to say "The service is being positioned not as a luxury train serving gourmet meals, but as a careful restoration of a first class train with “plush accommodations and superb service from attentive porters and stewards” presiding over “classic American dining.” One modern trapping: free wifi."
 
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
 
Mr. Norman, thank you for the link. I bookmarked it. Palmland, I agree it is a sensible approach for such a venture, but I truly hope it works. It sounds perfect for a pleasant rail trip.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
For benefit of TRAINS subscribers, here is a link to the material noted by Mr. Palmland:

TRAINS Newswire

For "others", here is a brief passage:

Of interest is that even though there are Roomettes in several of the PRJ cars, such as their former L&N "Colorado Pine" 6-4-6, they are not being offered for sale. Likely they are for crew.

Who knows if they were to let one "bail out" at Jackson (which they won't; the ASWC would "definitely frown" on such in view of PRJ's non-Agreement workforce), I'd bite for a "50 off" joyride in a Lower (return in line space on 58), New Orleans is simply a "turn off" with me.

To continue, I have to question if Mr. Ellis and his comrades are completely certain where their equipment was assigned while in railroad revenue service. From my records of consists, I find that the regularly assigned Obs cars, or at least until 1965 when I "left town to serve" were "Gulfport" and "Memphis". These cars, built for the first LW Panama in 1938, were configured 2BR 2CP 1DR Lng. Parlor Car seating was in a "straight" Parlor numbered 3351 and named "Mardi Gras". This was a HW Coach "heavily" rebuilt from the underframe up and had an exceptionally attractive "French Quarter" motif. Possibly the car PRJ has acquired that they have named "Pontchartrain Club" was assigned to the Panama/Magnolia Star operation during 1967 (or maybe even as early as 1965), but when I returned to Champaign during 1969 as a Viet-Nam vet to "finish what I had started" (translation: I dropped out June 1965, returned June 1969, graduated June 1970), the Magnolia Star was gone and the Panama was simply a Coach Sleeper train minus any Parlor or Obs.

Finally, I think the noted PRJ car was assigned to the Chi-Stl Green Diamond (like the Wabash, an also ran; but they sure had the classic station in Springfield making Amtrak's "adequate" look like some Amshack), but it was never on the Panama any time I was in Champaign.
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
1950 OW in a Double Bedroom.

No listing for berth sections

Historic rate of advance (1947): 57.9MPH (15:55)

Current rate of advance: 48.9 MPH (19:32)

Automobile time of travel at 60MPH rate of advance: 15:03.

Air travel including 2 hrs home/hotel to/from airport and 90 min at each airport boarding/debarking (nonstop service, Southwest): 9:10

Explain the business model, other than nostalgia, again, please?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Well, a review of the PRJ website would suggest that the November 14 "maiden voyage" Chi to NO is a "go".

Two persons, Round Trip return Nov 16, Bedroom double occupancy will set you back $5500.00.

It will be interesting to see if any sites such as Yelp or TripAdvisor will have reviews. Naturally, should a reporter from either the Trib, Sun Times, or Times Picayune be invited, wonderful words of the "superb experience" will flow.
 
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
 
Gilbert,

Can you do the trip as a single, or do you have to pay for a double?

Tom
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
One person could travel Northbound Nov 16 in a Roomette for $900; Single occupancy Bedroom is $1275. Those rates not available SB Nov 14, but if PRJ survives, I'm sure they will be on other SB dates. If they don't, maybe some "desparation fares" before they fold.

The 1962 rate One Way Panama Roomette $58.40 Bedroom $66.09. Anyone having a "deflator" table handy can decide how competitive Mr. Ellis is with the "good old day" (never mind 16'30" schedule prevailing back then).
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
And the answer is - $447. No question the service is pricey, but then with only one or two sleepers you get a full observation lounge and a dome diner plus all meals. And the world has changed a bit since 1962.

They are also offering sections. An upper will set you back $500. The beds in the sections are so comfortable and probably little time would be spent there since most will probably make use of the obs and dome. Sounds like I'm trying to convince myself it's a good deal.

Roomettes were not initially offered but they have now obtained a baggage dorm which frees up the roomettes in Colorado Pine, aka Plantation Pine ex L&N.
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
I am drooling thinking of the possibilities with my AGR Mastercard.

Best not take the bait though...... I would have to also bear the cost of getting to/from Chicago and New Orleans.
 
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
 
Does anyone know why they picked Chicago to New Orleans? Is it an easier route, as far as not running getting into a quagmire with the freight railroads?

I sure hope that Pullman Rail Journeys is a success. If so, I think it could mean the realization of a long-held thought; a "Rocky Mountaineer" excursion in this country could be very successful. I like the fact that PRJ offers sleeping accomodations, on board, unlike the Rocky Mountaineer. I hope the PRJ meal service is top notch.

If CHI-NOL is successful, how about Seattle & Portland to Chicago via the Empire Builder route..or, even a branch from Idaho along the Montana Rail Links to Billings and back to ND to the EB route.

Richard
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Richard, possibly not adequately clarified is that Pullman Rail Journeys intends to only use scheduled Amtrak trains; as such they are limited to existing routes.

With a highest point en route of perhaps 1000' somewhere in Southern Illinois, the City is only assigned one P-42 unit, which can easily handle a seven car Superliner consist. With Mr. Ellis' five additional cars (guess: Dorm, 2 Slprs, Diner, Obs Lng) a second unit will need be assinged. Certainly, when Amtrak quoted PRJ a rate, that second unit was factored therein. However, Amtrak does need to handle units from a main facility such as Chi to an outlying facility that is NO. This of course means that a second unit will be in consist on occasion. Now if Amtrak can schedule the rotation of these units on days that Mr. Ellis is running, Amtrak is $$$$ ahead for being able to charge a "PV" operator an expense that Amtrak will be incurring anyway.

But I'm sure that the decision to initially offer Chi-NO service was brought about for other reasons such as the tourist destination New Orleans has once again become. Even if wouldn't be about to pay a plugged nickel to visit New Orleans, many others out there are of different thought.

Considering that the PRJ rate is roundly treble that of riding up front in line space on the City, their on-board service had BETTER be superlative.

First trip is on its way tomorrow (subject to change without notice).
 
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
 
Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Norman. I await news to see how successful PRJ bcomes.

Richard
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Wonder if they are going to run; they are scheduled to leave in less than two hours from this posting, so Nov 14 SB reservations are now understandably closed. However, NB Nov 16 is also closed. When I last reported three days ago, there appeared to be plenty of space open. Did he sell this quickly?

Honestly, I have to wonder if they are even going to run; be assured I'm not about to chase down to somewhere such as Roosevelt Road to observe #59(14) depart (forty years ago, maybe). I'll leave that to someone else.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Judging by their website, it appears to me that they close out reservations for the NB trip once the SB departs. Maybe because of stocking and staffing considerations. Of more concern is that the couple trips in Dec. have disappeared from their website. Ellis did say they would regroup after initial trips to establish longer term plan.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
So, any reports about the maiden voyage? All I've been able to find out (at another forum) is that 59(14) "had private cars in the consist" when it left CUS.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Mike, according to a report by Mr. Ellis, the inaugural run was Nov. 2. Apparently a great success but his comments give us some insight into this:

"But we do have to sell beds to make this work, and we are selling through consolidators, such as AAA or AARP, through travel agents both domestic and international, as well as directly through the website. We are working on partnerships with cruise lines and especially with the American Queen Steamboat Company. The basic price point of $975 per person double occupancy in a bedroom compares favorably with the Venice-Simplon Orient Express current pricing of $3,300 for what is also a one-night trip. We are slightly higher than the Rocky Mountaineer one-day trip.

While we announced both New Orleans and New York, we have elected to focus on Chicago-New Orleans, and on getting the cars and service right. Our team has learned a lot in the first few weeks of operation, and our goal is to be Best In Class. That will, frankly, take some time to achieve because each trip brings new opportunities for learning, which our talented people are soaking up. So, while we might run some special trips in other lanes, look for us to focus on New Orleans. It's a great destination, food, activities, sports, people."

Another trip was reported on Nov. 9. And the trips in Dec. I reported not seeing, are back on their website: Dec. 12 and 19 from Chicago.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
Thanks for that info; I thought this was the inaugural run. Let's hope it lasts and maybe spreads to other overnight routes.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
It would appear, Mr. Palmland, that Mr. Ellis hired Baghdad Bob or maybe whoever VIA Rail hired to make a service retrenchment into an expansion.

Otherwise, if he is having to reach to consolidators, it appears to be a sign of desparation.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Here are two videos of Pullman Rail Journeys operations. Unfortunately, the first video does not identify a location or date:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6YtTp5y044

This video does identify the location as Carbondale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh83_SzhQ4Y&feature=related

Finally, there is a confirmed report, i.e. two independent sources, at another site that there was a minor derailment incident occurring Nov 17 (trip originating NO Nov 16) at Tuscola IL. The two rear PRJ cars had to be set out.

Ouch, for those paying the "grand a pop" that Mr. Ellis has reported is his price point and who wanted to recreate in the Obs of the Panama the journeys that I had Champaign-Chi while a Univ of Illinois student. Only diff, that was about $6 rail and parlor seat - and another $6 or so for a French Toast breakfast.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
From informed sources at other sites, it now appears that the derailment incident involved a broken axle and had the potential to be far more serious than it was:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51901&start=2670#p1109535

Will Amtrak simply embargo the PRJ equipment with "and the ball game's over" consequences?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
I have now learned that the CN/IC will not accept any Iowa Pacific, or whatever subsidiary thereof, passenger equipment operating on their lines "pending investigation".

Even if the PRJ website suggests business as usual, "they're done for".
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
The Spirit of Pullman was willing but the axle was weak.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Being optimistic I wouldn't write off PRJ just yet. Their website has now added twice a week departures from Chicago starting in January.

If I were Ed Ellis, regardless of what the CN did, I would have halted all service too until I jointly with the CN inspected all cars and replaced axles/wheels as necessary.

We'll see how deep his pockets are and if the CN really means "pending further investigation". Speculation I saw was there was a crack in the axle and it broke when hitting the diamond at Tuscola. Not a good thing and saved by an alert porter on the affected car that pulled the emergency brake cord before it derailed.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
This week is Fourth Quarter Begathon for the Chicago PBS outlet; WTTW.

At present, they are offering a drawing (no contribution required; but "they'd like one") for a round trip for two on PRJ.

Just call 800-588-1111; it is a sweepstakes; "no purchase necessary".

As for me, they just get my check in the mail; no muss no fuss. About all I watch is McLaughlin Group. Suffice to say, they are making direct mail solicitations all through the year as is their commercial radio station, WFMT 98.7.
 
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
I caught that end of the WTTW begathon, too, GBN. Either rumors of the enterprise's demise are premature or somebody didn't get the word. Do you know whether the begathon is live or taped?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Something tells me that there is still Kubler-Ross Phase I (denial) on Clinton Street (IPH's HQ). Informing Window To The World Communications, Inc. that there may be a "delivery problem" with the Grand Prize is not yet on the radar screen.

But the fact remains that IP tendered improperly inspected equipment to a Class I (Amtrak; yes it is a railroad) who in turn tendered it to a road over which they hold an operating contract (CN/IC) - and it came too close to a "really bad day". But to give credit where due, somewhere I learned that an alert PRJ Car Attendant's (they're back to that of so PI term of Porter) "railfan training" kicked in, pulled to cord, and the train stopped before resuming track speed after X-ing the UP/C&EI "diamond" at Tuscola.

Begathons are live; the Illinois CPA Society "shanghaied" me once or twice during my career. I even once got on-air and also to sit at a cafeteria table with Marty Robinson and Ray Norstrand.
 
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
I, too, was acquainted with Marty and Ray back in the day; before joining the literary beat I worked TV/radio stuff on the arts & amusements desk. Nice gentlemen, too, both certified intellectuals. Wonder what they would think of television and radio today, especially the wet garbage euphemistically called talk radio.

Just to keep this thread on track: I never asked them their opinion of Amtrak.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Our discussion on the Pullman Co. now takes a turn into entertainment. Opening this week in Washington is a new play 'Pullman Porter Blues'. Although some feel the term Porter is not P.C., here it's use is certainly appropriate to properly tell the story of porters on the Panama Limited in 1937, which is roughly the same route and schedule as that used now by the Pullman Co. on the CONO. Here are some comments from the review posted that can be found at Trains.com

"The action takes place on the southbound run of the the Illinois Central’s Chicago-to-New Orleans Panama Limited on the night of June 27, 1937, the night of an historic heavyweight prize fight between Joe Lewis and James Braddock. In between various diversions that include bombastic and gregarious female blues singer Sister Juba (played by E. Faye Butler) and a backing band, a stowaway passenger, and a tipsy and troublemaking conductor, the main thrust of the story revolves around a combination of intergenerational strife between the three generations of porters and the still-evolving face of both labor relations and civil rights of African-Americans during the turbulent pre-World War II era. (The Pullman Co. granted recognition to the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters with a collective bargaining agreement in August 1937, less than two months after the play's setting.) Tex, the train's conductor, spares no effort to remind the porters of their second-rate status, on the train or off it, even as the family argues over whether Cephas should return to college to pursue his studies, an opportunity the older men have worked hard to assure that he would have, at one of the few lucrative jobs available to blacks in the era.

Playwright West certainly did not intend for this play to be a documentary, but at the same time the play relies heavily upon the train and Pullman for the story and setting.............

The play is note perfect. At times it appears to be trying to decide whether to be a musical or a play about issues and conflict. The dialogue is also a bit forced or stilted, and the play ends abruptly, before the train even reaches New Orleans. The distraction of bold musical performances of blues standards aside, "Pullman Porter Blues" joins the expanding inventory of overdue examinations of the African-American railroading experience.

Pullman Porter Blues appears through Jan. 6 at the Arena Stage Kreeger Theater, 1101 Sixth Street SW, Washington, D.C., 20024.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
Brings to mind the 2002 film, "10,000 Black Men Named George," which I saw on the tube a while back.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
A review of Pullman Rail Journeys website shows that their first trip Southbound is scheduled for March 29. Of interest, not all that long ago, PRJ had some three round trips available for sale during January and a like number during February.

Of further interest, Super Bowl is Feb 3; Mardi Gras Feb 12. Couple of big traffic sources "down the hopper".

Don't know about this one; if you choose to book, best make any deposits by means of a credit, as distinct from a debit, card, as you have far greater recourse against any merchant that does not perform with use of the former.

Bets, anyone?
 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
I was wondering about this myself. I saw on another train website that the given reason for this is because on their first trip (their "launch" trip), one of the PVs had an axel issue and it derailed, causing great delay to the Amtrak train it was connected to. The railroad and Amtrak were not happy about this. Because of that, all of the cars that they were to use on their charter trains have been pulled and are being inspected with a fine tooth comb by Amtrak mechanical people. I don't know the nitty gritty details of this, however, that's what I read was happening and that is why things are iffy right now. I hope it goes through---I was trying to figure out a way to ride this train.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
An interesting point has been raised at another site, which can simply be described as "no room at the Inn".

While I guess all seven Class I's serve Chicago (KCS has some kind of haulage arrangement with what was the MILW - IC&E I think nowadays), six serve New Orleans (SOO Line absent). All have some kind of "executrain"; all have various luminaries "expecting" to be wined and dined during both Super Bowl and Mardi Gras.

Surely other PV operators will be making their "way down yonder" for these two annual displays of bacchanalia. It appears likely that NOUPT will be a busy place during that time frame.

It appears that even if New Orleans has lost one-third of its population and much remains devastated post-Kat (oh; and Sunset East has not been restored), sounds like it is "let the good times roll" again in "The Big Easy".
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
N'Awlins is warm(er) in February.

Kansas City, New York, Chicago, ad infinitum are not.

The facts speak for themselves.
 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
Here we go:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2013/01/02/the-remarkable-quest-of-ed-ellis.aspx
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
Interesting -

I'm usually fascinated by the subjects Fred Frailey presents. He is one of my favorites at Trains.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Thanks for that link, Smitty. It's good to see that the reason (at least according to the interview) for not operating in Jan/Feb is not the derailment but rather the need to do more marketing. I couldn't agree more. All of us are attuned to anything rail passenger, but how many of us have seen any advertising for his venture?

And this intrigues me: "Amtrak has said no to running Pullman’s cars on the rear of the Chicago-New York Lake Shore Limited because of space concerns in Penn Station. But there is more than one way to get to New York."

A train like his deserves to arrive/depart from magnificent Grand Central but I guess would require a special train from Albany (maybe as part of a connection from his S&NC operation.)
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Gotta ask Mr. Smith; how did you crack Kalmbach's firewall????
 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
GBN: All I did was click on the link and it opened. I am a subscriber to that page, however, I am not logged in--I just went in "cold" and it opened.

Are your cookies enabled? It might be a site that requires cookies. Just guessing. If that doesn't work, quit your browser and reopen it and try again. There shouldn't be any problems viewing that page.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
It is no issue with me as I am a TRAINS subscriber.

Incidentially I placed a comment at the piece with reference to Mr. Fowler's suggestion that imtermediate point service should also be considered.
 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
GBN: I probably don't know about railroad union agreements like you do, however, why would something like that matter? Private Varnish operators handle their own passengers at intermediate stops all the time, using their own staff. Why would it be any different in this situation?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Smitty, it is the same issue regarding contracting out that confronted Amtrak when they attempted to do such with a Subway franchisee to provide Food & Beverage on NY-Albany trains.

But on the other hand, Amtrak was able to contract out F&B on the Downeaster in that it was a new service. The B&M last ran a passenger train on that Boston-Portland ME route during 1961, and at that time it was Coach only Budd RDC's. There was an overnight train, the State of Maine, that folded during 1960; that did offer Bar and Breakfast service to Sleeping Car passengers using Agreement Pullman Company employees.

It seems as if most of these PV moves are beyond the scope of point to point service such as Mr. Ellis envisions operating. Furthermore, what's in it for Amtrak to press the issue with the ASWC? There are simply other battles to win. Some Union officials could consider that end-to-end represented an acquiescence on the part of the Employees, but that appears carved in stone to the extent it could be considered precedent if any case of such were progressed off the property to a Board under the Act.

As I noted at the TRAINS blog, possibly Amtrak would have no particular issue if the Agreement Employees on their property were agreeable, but I guarantee you they would not be. It would simply be the first step to have Amtrak contract out ALL OBS activities - and not necessarily using Agreement employees.

It's a non-start.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Appears the PRJ website has now added Boston as a destination; however no dates of service.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Boston? Let's get New Orleans going first.

I wonder how Boston would work as the cars would presumably go on the head end at Albany unless they pay for extra switching. That's not so good for those in the observation. Maybe they will 'make do' with a dome as the feature car.
 
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
 
Always interesting to hear issues regarding service to NY Penn Station. I know one of the plans was to travel east via the Capitol Limited and then connect the PRJ to the Pennsylvanian and on in to NYP. But then westbound, it was to take the route of the Lake Shore Limited. Being that this is not an option, East Coast to Midwest option would be to run to Philly or Boston if NYP is not an option. Again, they could do eastbound into Philly, but westbound on the same route out of Philly to Chicago would require some extra moves in Pittsburgh. Less so if the train operated to Boston. And of course the extra "power" is there to get the train from Albany to Boston via the Lake Shore's Boston section. It's just that the Boston section is not as popular as say the NYP section. And if PRJ operated in/out of Philly, it's a nice mid-point between NYP and Washington DC, requiring a transfer though......and then the Pittsburgh westbound switching issues without the "convenience" of extra trackage in the station. Too bad, as I would have liked to see something equivalent to the former Broadway Limited run between East Coast and Midwest (without the ridiculous 9:30 p.m. departure time).

Personally, I am waiting for Amtrak to sort of ban private car operation in/out of NYP and Sunnyside Yard. I sense there is general contention their overall. And typically the PV Car is positioned in the Newark yard prior to its maiden voyage......(i.e. get it in/out of Sunnyside as soon as possible).
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
I just looked at their schedule.

It looks like they are live and ready to roll starting 29 March, bi-weekly turns to N'Awlins.

That implies a single consist set in service.
Adirdondack Club: 3 S type DBR, 1 Master Room
Baton Rouge nee Tallahasse: 11 DBR, mix 4 post-war BC-BL and 7 S-Type with sofas.
Chebanse nee Caparra: 10-6, 8 Roomettes in use as crew dorm space.
Colorado Pine: 6 roomtettes, 4 DBR, 6 sections. Again, the roomettes appear to be dorm space.
North Coast nee 312: Appears to be rebuilt under the dome. When I travelled one of these on 3-4 in 1977, the underdome rooms were Single Bedrooms, for the height.
Pontchartrain Club: One of the rebuilt HW cars for the CONO, as I recall. I'll have to go to my library to see what she was originally.

What I see as loading capacity is:
84 revenue beds.
14 Non-revenue beds.
14 Dining Spaces.

Houston, we have a problem.

14 dining spaces implies 6 meal seatings.

Anyone know how they are getting around this? Is there a 36/48 seat diner they've not talked about?


Now, to see if it actually goes, and for how long...
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Colonel, last I knew (and affirmed by a sighting of such this past Sat AM), PRJ's Dining Car is a former ATSF Big Dome (changing hands many times over the past forty years since ATSF sold it to AT).
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
Was that Big Dome in service moving/serving etc. when you sighted it this past Saturday or holding in a yard Mr. Norman?

Seems like this PRJ venture has some tenacity. I wonder if that will translate to longevity?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
The Big Dome was not part of any consist.

Once upon a time yes, but I'm simply not railfan enough anymore to camp out on Roosevelt Road to watch the departure of 59(29) and observe if any PRJ cars are in the consist.

Of further interest, what are theu smoking on Clinton Street? Now they have added destinations of Mechanicville NY and Saratoga Springs, but of course, no service dates announced.

It appears they are just running flags up the flagpole to see how they fly.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:


Of further interest, what are theu smoking on Clinton Street? Now they have added destinations of Mechanicville NY and Saratoga Springs, but of course, no service dates announced.

It appears they are just running flags up the flagpole to see how they fly.

Gil, could you please elaborate here? As one who has a certain intimacy with Saratoga (the area and the race track), I'd like to know more. Is this about the Saratoga and North Creek?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mike, at this time there is nothing at their website beyond showing "Mecihvile" and Saratoga as stations. No service dates have been announced.

My "run it up the flagpole" is simply based upon all of these places they have inferred they want to have service - Boston, New York, etc.

Lest we forget, this outfit has only completed one revenue trip to date; the return "sort of ended" at Tuscola with an event that could have been far more serious had it not been for a quick thinking Porter whose surely railfan instincts quite timely kicked in.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
OK, got it. Those stations show up at the PRJ site. Very interesting, and I trust you will keep us posted if anything further shows up there. Maybe racetrain excursions for a day at the races at the Spa this summer? I guess I'll check the website myself, if I can find it.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Special excursion from Boston North Station to Saratoga Sprgs. Presumably the cities loaded into their system to allow them to sell tickets for that one RT excursion
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Well Mr. Palmland, if they have "visions" that "Pan Am makes the going great" for them, they seem to be keeping that to themselves.

Have you knowledge that they are actually planning such an excusion?
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
palmland, North Station to Saratoga Springs? What routing would that take? The site isn't helpful at all, and there's no "contact us" option that I can find. Not inclined to call the number, and I think, like Gil says, they're into the hemp on Clinton St.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
The routing is Boston & Maine; now part of the Pan Am Rail System. This was the one time route of the Flying Yankee and Minute Man. Today there is regular MBTA service North Station-Fitchburg.

Mechanicville was the interchange with the D&H that allowed the passenger trains access to Albany Union Station, and more importantly freight traffic to be forwarded to Binghamton where a "friendly" interchange could be made with either the ERIE or DL&W.

During the Conrail era, it appeared the "Mechi" interchange was finito and same for the D&H. Where "Agents Routing" controlled, most favorable for NYC Canadian originated traffic if consigned Westward was a D&H "short haul" to NYC's line through Ogdensburg. Post C-Day, "Agent's" (as distinct from "Shipper's" traffic where the shipper has designated the routing) traffic formerly routed D&H to Binghamton now went via Ogdensburg leaving the D&H very much "between the rock...". However, as part of the Conrail breakup, the Canadian Pacific (through its US subsidiary SOO Line) acquired the D&H and as a condition, granted trackage to the NS enabling competitive service in a region which otherwise would be "all CSX" (in VERY round terms, the Conrail breakup gave the Central to CSX and the Pennsy to NS). To provide for competitive access to New England, the NS entered into a marketing arrangement with the B&M and the other roads comprising the Pan Am system.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
Looks like palmland is right on. PRJ replied to one of my tweets as follows:

"PullmanRailJourneys
@TravelPullman

@ocalamike No plan - just a one off departure for a group. Was easiest to get it online for them to book. Chicago-NewOrleans starts 3/29"

So, maybe someone could clarify, i.e., did this departure already take place or is it scheduled for the group this season?
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
Another tweet from PRJ on this:

"PullmanRailJourneys
@TravelPullman

@ocalamike Group departs Boston on April 13th - it is open for public booking but only the train is included."

Still foggy to me; what group? Why Boston to Saratoga on 4/13? Maybe a convention or something?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
To add to the confusion, the PRJ website presently does not offer any departures from Boston during Apeil - available or sold.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
This should clear it up. Scroll down to the Pan-AM Southern excursion on April 13.
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
Big Dome as a dome diner. It would be very interesting to see how they converted the underdeck space to kitchen, pantry, and food storage.

From the late Mr Ainsworth's Dome Main site, it appears this car is either ex ATSF 552 or 553.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
Thanks, palmland. Don't know why I couldn't get this from PRJ, but should have known you'd come through. Interesting trip, indeed, especially the Hoosac Tunnel part.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Yet another PRJ acquistion:

Minnesota Zephyr Dinner Train

Heritage of the cars is also interesting:

Zephyr cars
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
As of a few moments ago, for the "reincarnation" run from CHI on Friday March 29, there are Sections (an Upper for $500), Roomettes ($900), and a Master Room ("if you have to ask, you can't afford it") open.

Sorry, but I'll pass; New Orleans is simply a "zero interest" with me and I'd just be on a 530P flight home.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
I saw something at another website to the effect that the rail portion of the 4/13 PRJ excursion will terminate at Mechanicville as the CP (old D&H) is balking at letting PRJ run the excursion over any "non-Amtrak" pssenger routes. Anyone know any more about this?

Also, anyone know how the 3/29 CHI - NOLA trip went?
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by palmland:
Yet another PRJ acquistion:

Minnesota Zephyr Dinner Train

Heritage of the cars is also interesting:

Zephyr cars

Isn't one of those Minnesota Zephyr domes a Southern Pacific homebuilt? It would be interesting to see that in service somewhere and take a ride on it.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Right you are, David. I believe originally built as a Parlor lounge dome. If converted back to its original configuration I can think of a few routes where it would make a nice daytime excursion with all the Pullman amenities - say Denver to Glenwood Springs or even New Orleans to Atlanta.

Mike, I read something too that said CP President Hunter Harrison personally halted the trip over his railroad (can imagine the wrath upon the poor soul that originally ok'd it). Supposedly the train will now use a very interesting alternate routing from Mechanicville - Ex Rutland from Hoosic Jct to Rutland than on the Ethan Allan route to Saratoga Springs. But that may just be railfan talk as some of that routing is on CP also.

I hadn't realized that High Iron Travel is actually another IP subsidiary. Check out the passenger operations they have here.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
I have no confirmation, one way or the other, if the scheduled PRJ Chi-NO are running.

From the immediate report regarding the Boston Saratoga Spg. excursion, where the CP/D&H will not let them run is just one more "misadventure" that started with Golden Arrow Tours in the 70's, continued through the Amtrak Mail & Express fiasco, and the Ski Train.

Oh well, I guess the "hard core" railfan segment will still show up for a run to "Mechi", but I'm sure the "daisy pickers" had in mind Saratoga.
 
Posted by 50 year railfan (Member # 61148) on :
 
I agree that the Hoosic, Bennington, Rutland routing still doesn't avoid running on CP trackage to get to Saratoga. Sounds like a bus might be the only option to get to Saratoga and the start of the line to North Creek.

And I am also interested if any of the Chi-NO runs have actually happened, and if so how many passengers were carried.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Welcome to our forum, Mr. Railfan. I think you will find a good mix of fellow 50 year railfans, including some who worked in the business, younger members with fresh ideas, and those who like to travel and frequently use trains.

I can see one scenario where the special would continue to Saratoga Springs. I believe Amtrak has the right to carry PV on any train. So if the excursion were to get Amtrak agreement to run some of the cars on the Ethan Allan from Rutland, I don't think there is much the CP could do about it.

From reports I have seen, the Pullman Co has in fact run trips on a regular basis starting March 29. However, not surprisingly, the passenger loads have been light and they are using only the minimum number of cars needed to accommodate them. In at least one case, that was just the observation, Pontchartrain Club. On the initial run they had the observation, sleeper, and dome lounge/diner.

Ed Ellis has said there may be occasions when they don't run but he is committed to building up ridership and bookings are looking good for this fall. I hope they succeed.
 
Posted by 50 year railfan (Member # 61148) on :
 
Thanks for the welcome. I probably could say "50 plus" since rainy day entertainment when I lived in West Hartford, CT was going with my mother and brother to watch trains on the New Haven. While at Camp Hale in Colorado, she and my father had developed a great respect for railroading watching the Rio Grande push the heavy wartime traffic over Tennessee Pass.

My long ago memory of West Hartford caused me to question the captioned location of a photo in Trains. I said it had to be West Hartford, VT since it was single track and there were only trees in the background. It really was CT, but the last time I had seen Oakwood Ave. it was double main track with an industrial track on the side and no trees, just factories.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
As of a few moments ago, a visit to the PRJ website shows the only service offered is CHI-NOL; Tu and Fr SB. Who knows if all of these trips will actually operate?

There have been no photos of a PRJ move appearing in TRAINS - and one would think that there is enough daylight running to have generated some. However, I certainly accept Mr. Palmland's earlier report that some - and possibly even all - of the scheduled trips have operated. However, the reports that for some runs, only the Obs. "Pontchartrain Club" operated can hardly be considered encouraging, but then, one would guess this is the anthem on Clinton St.

Before I would consider anything such as dropping some $2K for a 36hr joyride (about what my "one night stand" in Miami ran last month that some here know about - no reason to discuss here at the Forum as it was fly both-ways) comprising PRJ down and fly back (not hanging around NO longer than I must - "wheels up" @ KMSY could not come soon enough), I would want to see some comprehensive trip insurance offered. But then, how many insurers out there would be willing to write such coverage.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
For those who have registered with Facebook, it appears that PRJ will be periodically reporting their consists.

Reviewing another site (I'm not about to sign up for Farcebook just for this or much of any other reason), the consist reported for today NB is "Chebanse", "Colorado Pine", "Scenic View", and "Pontchartrain Club".
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
I've been talking on FB with PRJ.

When they run Colorado Pine, they will sell an open section as "single occupancy." Buy the upper, and the lower.

Now ... do their porters know that when you have a SO section, you get BOTH mattrresses, all the pillows, ad infinitum?
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
PullmanCo, why don't you raise that issue on FB during one of your talks? Anyway, there's a good article in the current Passenger Train Journal about the PRJ operation, focusing on the 3/29 trip from Chicago to New Orleans. The tone of the article suggests that they are pulling out all the stops to recreate the old-time Pullman experience, so I think the answer to your question would be a yes.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Also a good article in current issue of Trains. It lists their incredible collection of cars.
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
They must have some well-placed connections to warrant feature articles in Trains and Passenger Train Journal at the same time.

I've read the Trains article (and marveled at the roster palmland mentions) and hope to get to the Passenger Train Journal Article this evening. Haven't had time yet to get that deep into the issue.
 
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
 
It's the start of PRJ's season and right now they are the only ones doing this type of unique operation so why not run such an article in said railfan magazines!

As things progress - or not - I am sure there will be articles of the same sort!

I will also say that I was impressive with their roster! Amtrak has a lot of trains that get pressed for sleeper service in peak summer season. This could be an interesting opportunity for PRJ to explore.....or they can join the likes of GrandLuxe.

Unlike GrandLuxe and some others, it appears that just maybe PRJ has the proper knowledge to make this a "go." Time will tell.

I wish them the best!
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=196691615&m=196691596

The linked segment above recently aired on NPR, and would suggest that all Food & Beverage service is provided in the Obs-Lounge Ponchartrain Club. It would appear that the PRJ consist is at best two cars, for if it were longer, a review of the "--Club" floor plan shows too little Dining space.

Of further interest, the PRJ website presently shows only two Tue CHI departure and same NO Thu during July. Possibly the other two are sold, but then......

But sorry volks, a trek down to Roosevelt Road to observe #59's departure is "above and beyond the call of duty".
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Better take Mr. Frailey's advice, GBN. Ride it while you can.

The two car PRJ operation with the use of the observation as a lounge, sleeper, and diner reminds me of the last days of B&O's National Limited. In the late 60's, the railroad wanted to have good trains until the end, but also needed to cut costs. C&O/B&O management essentially took off B&O's flagship National Limited and merged it into C&O's George Washington. But with regulatory requirements, they still had to retain a train on the B&O. It had a baggage car or two, a coach, and on the rear the very nice Sleeper-lounge-diner-observation car.

The cars had started life on NYC's premier trains and the B&O bought them in 1956. Apparently they weren't reading the handwriting on the wall!
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mr. Palmland, according to Wayner, the NYC to B&O cars you note, Genesee, Maumee, and Wabash River were of 1939 vintage and configured 2BR, 1DR, Buffet, Obs and were first assigned to the National Limited after they were acquired by B&O during 1956. No need for a name change as both the Central and the B&O X'd those rivers somewhere on their respective systems.

Now regarding a PRJ joyride, New Orleans is simply a non-attraction to me. Therefore I'd fly down the morning of departure. Even if I'm not all that much of a Southwest airfan, they at least offer no-fee exchangeable tickets that I guess I could put to use somewhere during the year following. They do have KMDW-KMSY non-stops (now what an airfan would do would be to take a United KORD-KIAH-KMSY where there is an itinerary that would work out AND would offer KORD-KIAH aboard a B-787 Dreamliner). Now if Mr. Ellis was to crap with my $900 for a Roomette on the table, I somehow doubt if he were to offer refunds, but likely would offer a future trip - if such were to be. Using a credit, not a debit, card to pay up offers some chance of relief, for if he scrubbed, one could place the charge in dispute. While some out there thrive on disputes (hey if your'e not fighting, you're getting hosed), I'm too old for that stuff nowadays.

All told, to have the travel experience unfold as planned would be a $ 1200 crapshoot.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Several developments have occurred with regards to PRJ since my immediate posting.

First, for the remainder of July, there will be only one round trip per week, namely SB Fri NB Sun. I could live with that, but I sure have to start questioning to what extent I'd be dealing with a going concern.

Now the second one takes the "bloom off the rose" to me. No longer does it appear PRJ is prepared to offer Roomettes. Their 10-6, "Chebanse", does not appear to be operating. While the 6-4-6, "Colorado Pine", has Roomettes, they apparently are reserved for crew. Therefore no Roomettes available or at least for a while (as an aside, I'm surprised that 6-4-6 remains named "Colorado Pine" - an ex-L&N "--Pine" - which was a made up name. IC 4-6-6's had intriguing names like "King Cotton" and "King Coal" as well as "Magnolia State"). While I realize that many here "give eye teeth" to get to ride in a Section, count me out. All too much of the trip is daylight and I'd probably end up staring at someone who would just as soon not have to stare at me.

There is just too great the chance this will become a $1200 crapshoot; I'm really cooling off to the idea.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
You won't believe this.

Yes, I said I wasn't going to do it at the Forum, BUT put two wines ($6.99 bot Meridian Chardonnay) in me with Lunch and I start to "let's give it a try".

I first identified a United flight (puddle jumper) to get down to MSY lv 930A this Thursday Jul 11 ar 1135A; I figure that is "safe" as Moissant (whoops; Satchmo) is not all that far away from NOUPT.

Then, with the flight one click away from being booked - and no backsies on the $401 fare, I then went to PRJ. I started to book the July 11 Northbound which showed a Roomette open. I was typing in all the info went to confirm and it was "Sorry the service requested is not available". Still holding United one click away, I went to PRJ's Book page would you believe it? THEY ARE NOW NOT OFFERING ANY SERVICES NB ON JULY 11. In other words, right while I was booking, they yanked the trip.

I guess Ellis decided it was time to scrub. What United doesn't know doesn't hurt, or otherwise what does an outfit doing $35B even care?.

All told BEWARE

I shared this with Mr. Kisor; here is his reply:.

GBN:

Holy cow. If this were in a novel I would not believe it. Yes, I think you should talk about it on the Forum. Meanwhile it would be interesting to know if that particular departure only was scrubbed or if it is symptomatic of going belly-up.

HK

 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
GBN: I'm having a hard time deciphering what your wrote. I think you are saying that Pullman Rail Journeys is no longer offering trips? If so, I am not finding this at all.

I just tried an example trip to see what would happen, and specifically, I just booked a trip from Chicago to New Orleans on August 13th. I was able to book one master bedroom for $2,850. I did NOT go as far as paying for it---I went just PRIOR to that point to see how far it would let me go. So unless the cancellation happens when you try to pay, I'm not seeing anything wrong with the service.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
THEY ARE NOW NOT OFFERING ANY SERVICES NB ON JULY 11.

Andy Smith; here is what I said.

What if I had booked yesterday and got a confirmation? That would have been "sport" as United would have had three words for me: "sorry 'bout that".

Much as I would prefer not to fly them; best think Southwest - at least they offer refundable fares.
 
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
 
I checked the July 11 NOL-CHI departure and it has been crossed off the booking list, just as GBN said.

Out of curiosity I went to pre-booking a NOL-CHI trip July 18 and that seems to be still open. Maybe the NOL-CHI trip that got yanked out from under you, GBN, was canceled owing to too few passengers. If tonight's trip CHI-NOL is still on, that would suggest there is no mechanical problem, I would think.

In any case this does not bode well for PRJ.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
GBN - A couple thoughts: How about picking a date in August when PRJ website says they will operate, then call them. Talking to a real person usually is better with an outfit like them. Tell them your story and ask them to confirm the August trip will run and that you'd like a roomette but if none available you'd like a single bedroom for the same price. If you like their answers then book the rest of the trip.

Given the uncertainty of their operations I'd certainly consider Southwest. Fares seem to be in the low $200's. You might also think about going down the evening before. I know you don't care for the tourist scene in New Orleans, so how about the venerable Hotel Roosevelt (now part of Hilton's Waldorf Astoria collection). I think PRJ might even have a special rate there. I seem to remember as a kid late night AM broadcasts from the hotel on station WWL. A good night's sleep (and no plane trip hassle) always makes the start of a train trip more enjoyable.

Thanks for your email and sorry we missed you this year but our travels seemed to be everywhere west but Chicago.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Some good thoughts here, Mr. Palmland.

Southwest's fare MDW-MSY was same as was United's from ORD ($401). I prefer United simply because I know my way around Terminal 1 at ORD, but that PRJ could well scrub last minute as they did with me today, means I should look for an air carrier who does offer refundable fares.

It also could be a case of good luck getting a refund out of PRJ.

So far as the Roosevelt goes, I have stayed there; it was the HQ for the 1973 NRHS Convention where my face found its way into CLASSIC TRAINS about a year ago. But when the destination city is simply a "zero" for me, the thought of spending more time there than necessary, and for a wholly discretionary trip, it's simply a turn off. I'd likely have a couple at bar, Dinner at the Hotel's restaurant where maybe they have a steak hiding away so I don't have to eat those things with fins and claws, and otherwise go back to the room and turn the flat-screen on.

The call was just too close today; could I part company with $1300 without being on Food Stamps? Of course I could; would I like it, no way as it would just be another chapter in the best seller that started with friends of mine that ponied up for one of his 1978 vintage Golden Arrow steam tours. I think all can surmise how THAT turned out. Wisely I did not sign up for such; so I guess today would have been payback.

With this close shave so narrowly averted today, any guesses what happened to the other half of that bottle of Chard I noted earlier?
 
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
 
When I look at the PRJ website I see northbound NOL departures (at least with roomettes for sale) on July 21 and 28 only now. Did not look at August.

As I noted in an email earlier today, perhaps the PRJ experience will survive only as a once monthly trip marketed to the AAPRCO set....if that.

Regardless though - I'd be hard pressed to buck their roomette when an Amtrak roomette on the City of New Orleans can be found at $130 low bucket.
 
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
 
Be careful with Southwest tickets, the advance purchase "Wanna Get Away" fares are not refundable, but they can be applied to another ticket if you cancel your trip. SWA does have a Senior Fare that is refundable, however.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Before I forget it, allow me to note that on Friday Aug 2, I observed two Pullman Rail cars that I would guess arrived inbound on 58(1) as it appears that the Thursday NB departure has been resumed.

There were two cars; however I was not close enough to observe their names. I think one was 6-4-6 "Colorado Pine" and the other Obs "Ponchartrain Club".
 
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
 
There are some credit cards that cover cancellation of a major part of a vacation. Whether that extends to cars tagged on the back of a regular train (or not) is something that somebody with a microscope and a legal brain might fathom.

Trips that are co-dependent on separate parts of that trip coming together are always tricky. Simple dithering before booking cost me 5 free nights in Indianapolis (no availability) but at least my $7.50 flights SNA-ORD-IND, ORD-SNA were safe. No prizes for guessing how I'm going from IND to ORD - my fix for the year I guess.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mr. Mayo, are you riding 51, Cardinal, (or worse 851) for fun?

Masochism, absolute masochism
 
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
 
Well, 851, and entirely for fun. But that's only if they don't yank it the day before I ride.

It's a route I've taken twice before, albeit on the Cardinal (Superliner and then Viewliner). Much as I would have liked to take Amtrak LAX<->CHI, I couldn't make it work in terms of cost/time, so this is the best I could do.

As for masochism, to misquote somebody, enjoyment is in the mind of the beholder.
 
Posted by Drjuli (Member # 70116) on :
 
Well either PRJ topics have fallen way off or I'm so new to this that I can't find the right section!
Anyway, I read the comments about the Pullman rail and don't ever hear anyone commenting on riding.

It's great- we've ridden it twice-NB both times. First time was in June of this year- there were 4 in our group and a total of 12 on the trip. The double bedrooms were roomier than anything Amtrak and the food,drinks, and overall service was superb. The food was not gourmet but it was cooked to order and fresh and an assortment of meats veggies and desserts.
On time arrival with a good hearty breakfast as we rolled through the last 40-50 miles.

The second trip was in mid August - a guys trip up from New Orleans to see a baseball game. My friends were not seasoned train travelers but they were very impresses with the service. Lunch as we left New Orleans was soups and several different sandwiches; dinner was when we wanted it and our total group of 10 all had drinks and dinner(steak,fish,or chicken) and were finishing up with coffee and dessert about 830pm.

It's a little pricey but it is so civilized and unrushed. Flying Southwest ,United or anyone is anything but civilized or unrushed. There is a trip planned early November w musicians etc on board. Wish I could book- offering a discount of 30% I believe.
Mr GBN on several occasions bashes New Orleans -- I'll bet you haven't given it a try. The food and cuisine and the dining experience is different than anywhere else and in a good way.
The crab, shrimp, fish and oyster dishes are dependably excellent. A recent Sunday lunch at Mandina's was just devine. It is of course smaller than Chicago and cities like that but it has plenty to offer and that's excluding Bourbon street.

Thanks for listening
J.Mullins
Baton Rouge

Forgot to mention but the Adirondack club was our observation car on both trips- no Dome diner. Adirondack is bright and airy car and could double as a mid train club car back in the day.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
First Dr. Mullins, welcome to our Forum.

Secondly, and this has got to be a LOOOONG shot, were you perchance a Flight Surgeon at Tan Son Nhut circa 67-68? If so, I've been your patient.

Now regarding New Orleans as a tourist destination, simply because I have no use for the tourist scene (to me 'contrived bacchanale') and I simply don't eat things with fins and claws, does not give me license to deter others from what they find to be pleasurable. A review of my postings at this topic will establish I have been to New Orleans. I have been to the WWII Museum and I find that to be worthwhile, however my most recent visit was Feb 2004 changing from Sunset East to the City on an Orlando to Chicago trip. I never left the train station during the four some hour layover.

Interesting to note, Doctor, that PRJ's Adirondack Club was in your consist. That could well have been the car I observed at CUS this past August. While it appears that IP/PRJ has withdrawn from their website a history of their fleet's heritage, I think that car is ex-C&O. If such be the case, it had kitchen facilities, at least in its latter years, while in C&O service. Accordingly, and especially based on your report, my earlier thought that they were serving catered food is unfounded.

Finally, lest we forget, I was ONE CLICK away from booking.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
I believe Adirondack Club is ex C&O Blue Ridge Club, one of eight 5DBR-lounge-observation cars built for the stillborn 'Chessie' streamliner. Four were sold upon delivery to the B&O and one was converted to an office car. Of the other three, including Blue Ridge Club, two were used on the C&O/Chessie until Amtrak and one was wrecked in 1976 (from C&O Passenger Cars, Harry Stegmaier).

Having spent the second night of our honeymoon in New Orleans we return frequently, and will do so again in January.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
First Mr. Palmland, please excuse my parsing of your material, but it seemed the most expedient way to address the multitude of points made:

quote:
I believe Adirondack Club is ex C&O Blue Ridge Club, one of eight 5DBR-lounge-observation cars built for the stillborn 'Chessie' streamliner.
The eight '--Club' cars noted were of Pullman Standard design; the Chessie equipment was all Budd built and was not named.

quote:
Four were sold upon delivery to the B&O
C&O Shenandoah Club B&O Dana
C&O Tidewater Club B&O Nappanee
C&O Ohio River Club B&O Metcalf
C&O Wolverine Club B&O Wawasee

quote:
..and one was converted to an office car.
C&O New River Club; Office Car 29

quote:
Of the other three, including Blue Ridge Club, two were used on the C&O/Chessie until Amtrak and one was wrecked in 1976 (from C&O Passenger Cars, Harry Stegmaier).
These remaining cars were converted during 1961 to a Dorm Kitchen Diner configuration, and retained their names of 'Bluegrass, Allegheny', and, as noted by Mr. Palmland, 'Blue Ridge Club'. One of such, 'Allegheny Club', was in the consist of my one and only ride through the New River Gorge during Sep 1962 WW on the FFV. My complaint was that the tables were placed by the window bolster making viewing quite difficult. It appears Mr. Ellis addressed this with his car.

Source for these amplifications: Wayner

quote:
Having spent the second night of our honeymoon in New Orleans we return frequently, and will do so again in January.
'To each his own'
 
Posted by Drjuli (Member # 70116) on :
 
Nice history on those cars. The Adirondack club did have a small kitchen and several bedrooms and the large room w a double bed annex and shower. It has 3 or 4 tables seating 4 each and then a observation area with about 8 chairs against
The wall/windows facing the center of the car.

To answer your question about my being a flight surgeon- no I was not-I was still in high school those years. Thank you for your service and your survival.

Thanks for the warm welcome - I still have my day job so sometimes it may take a few to respond or banter

See ya later
J Mullins
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
I do wonder what happened to Pontchartrain Club, the observation that had been used. Looks like Mr. Ellis is living up to his word to keep it going for a full year. I wonder what will happen next year.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Anyone; wanna bet?

http://intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/re-creating-the-golden-age-of-rail-travel/

Brief passage:

After a browse around the PRJ website, a few points of note:

Lower fares: An Upper can presently be had for $390 and proportionate reductions to other accommodations.

On-Board Live Entertainment: Hope you enjoy the 'folk' genre (I know first hand Mr. Ellis does); but is this 'innovation' really necessary? Possibly the strategy here is that since alcohol is open bar, the entertainment will hold down on the amount of booze in circulation benefiting both Mr. Ellis' pocketbook and reducing the likelihood of having a passenger 'get out of line'.

No registration?, no browsing: In order to 'take a peek' to see rates and schedules, you now must register to do so. I got registered last Summer when my 'almost joyride' was about to be booked. Sooner or later, bombardments will begin. Incidentally, no dates presently available for this announced New York service. Chi-NO appears to be 'once a week' with extra trips for the annual 'bombast of bacchanalia' and Easter.

Finally, here are exterior and interior photos of 'Allegheny Club' the on board service car that appears to be in regular service and that Dr. Mullins reported was on his journeys. It appears that the location of the tables with regards to the windows has been addressed since C&O converted the cars from Sleeper Lounges to Dorm Diners during 1961. Regarding Mr. Palmland's immediate comment concerning 'Ponchartrain Club', while this car's round end 'looks pretty', it does not have any food service capacity and as such if it were to operate in PRJ service, there would need to be a separate Diner. Twenty or so passengers can hardly justify such; however, learning that 'Allegheny Club' was assigned laid to rest my earlier concerns that some kind of catered food service was being offered.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Quotations from the 'Great AGR Experience' topic that certainly have relevance to further discussion here:
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
. It seems last July when I was about to have my 'almost' PRJ joyride......If I am to think of such this year, somehow I think I'd have to {use].....Southwest KMDW-KMSY,,,,,they offer refundable fares and with Ellis' track record of last minute cancellations, not sure if I want to look at a $200 exchange fee on [another carrier]

quote:
Originally posted by palmland:
As to Pullman Co., our SCA on the CONO worked it regularly and said he hadn't seen their cars since early last fall. It was supposed to have been on our train, but MIA. Perhaps the cold weather?


 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
I just did a little 'snooping' around the PRJ website; since you have to register with them in order to snoop, and I did have a bona fide reason to do so last year, I figured I'd do a little snooping today.

Presently, here is number of trips the website says they have/have planned to run NB NO to Chi:

Jan 4
Feb 4
Mar 5 (Shrove Tuesday Mar 4)
Apr 5 (Easter Sunday Apr 20)
May 4
Jun 3
Jul 3
Aug 5
Sep 4
Oct 4
Nov 5
Dec 4

It also appears that the fares have come WAY DOWN; For a Thursday June 26 departure, a Roomette is now only $396 - that is down from $900 a year ago.

If I'm to do what I planned last year, i.e. fly down, Pullman back, I would only consider a fully refundable airline ticket (my preference for United is simply that I don't fly all that much nowadays, they seem to go where I want to go, and I know my way around ORD Terminal 1 as well as their website. Also they had the MILW's Travel Desk when I was there - even if most of my flights on railroad business seemed to be on Northwest) which we all know cost heap big wampum more than the use it or lose it varietal. Also, should the trip be cancelled at the last minute, I'd appreciate some kind of indemnification from PRJ, i.e. a refund of the applicable exchange fee ($200 seems to be the going rate) as well as a credit for the CANX'd trip to my American Express within 24 hours, and not just for some future trip (I think we all know how agreeable he would be to that).

I really think that in view of my experience last year, such is reasonable - and if Ed or one of his Lieutenants reviews this site, I hope they would agree.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Pullman Rail is presently airing 15 second 'spots' on WBBM 780/105.9 albeit during 'off-hours'.

PRJ's website continues to be a disaster area; in fact I got a malware warning from Norton with their recommendation to 'vamanos', which I did.

But before Mr. Norton's warning I had a chance to review the CANX policy, which calls for 60 days notice in writing (e-mail and FAX OK) of such for a full refund. 60-45 days partial, under 45 days? 'sorry Charlie'.

Also noted was 'to allow our passengers more time at our destinations, we have changed our schedules'. To what, I know not.

New York remains a 'coming soon'.

All told, I wish this outfit 'good luck'; I think it is needed.
 
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
 
Gilbert,
Your posting prompted me to take a look at the PRJ website. I got no malware warning and, although I'm not registered, I was able to fully move around the site.

One question though: under the heading "schedule" the CONO schedule pops up. Are we to believe that PRJ runs daily? And do they have enough equipment to do that?
Tom
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mr. Black--

It appears that you did not go as far to find out what days they actually intend to operate (I avoid the use of the word 'Will'). I tried to determine just that without success.

But at this time, PRJ's rates are almost at parity with Amtrak's: for example they note Roomettes from $396. Going out a month, Amtrak today offered a Roomette CHI-NOL Mar 16 for $368.

It sure seems that if a supposed 'luxotrain' is being priced essentially same as Amtrak (Cheaper than Amtrak if you can live with an Upper @ $240), they are getting a bit 'desperate'. I think it best to consider anything shelled out to them as 'Vegas $$$'; in short, be ready to ride Amtrak in their place, or if 'no room at the Inn' to fly - and that would be at air piracy rates.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
Worked just fine for me with the dates shown. Prices are still 'low' ($780 for BR) for most trips although a June date was $1950). Shows 4 scheduled each way in March, 6 in April, 2 in May, 3 in June. Amtrak was $359-$489 for a BR.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
The site is now working for me.

This one simply 'sounds too good to be true', so it probably is.

Entering NB June 12, PRJ is offering a Roomette for $198, by comparison Amtrak wants $296 for same.

But all told, whatever happened to their $1000 p/p price point; somebody's desperate.

This far out, United wants $399 for a morning flight down on a SkyWest Bombardier (someone else is likely cheaper, but that is the only airline website I know my way around), so all told, $700 instead of the $1300 I was ready to put on the table last Summer.

But I could still foresee being 'out' the $198, 'no room at the Inn' last minute on the City, and having simply to fly home at air piracy rates.

In short, an airfan joyride.
 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
You're right---they are desperate. You never want to bite the hand that feeds you! Undercutting Amtrak is probably the worst idea you could come up with at this point. There's more, but I better keep my lips sealed.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
At this time, I'm inclined to think of the noted $198 rate as an OPTION (long 'Call') to ride at that rate if they are still in business four months from now.

Mr. Mayo, do you think Ladbrokes is taking bets that PRJ will or won't be around four months from now? That would be the most immediate way at hand to 'hedge'.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
The railfan circuit is buzzing over the sale of Iowa Pacific (operator of Pullman Rail Journeys as well as some successful short line railroads). While many were saying the end is near, Mr. Ellis spoke on the record with Fred Frailey of Trains magazine in his blog.

So, is the sun setting or rising on Iowa Pacific and its Pullman Rail Journeys adventure that will surely be one for business schools case studies if it ever turns a profit (or even breaks even)?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Of interest, no major newssource, as distinct from recognized - the category into which I place the Frailey blog and one S&NC on-line Upstate NY newspaper, has to date reported this story of the Zell majority acquisition of IPH.

That paper, the Glens Falls Post Star, was most concerned that S&NC is reportedly 'not to speedy' paying their vendors.

Possibly related (redacted) material:

STB filing
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
This gives you a better idea of what Mr. Ellis is about. It's a link to his presentation at the Southwesern Rail Conference. Quite interesting (and not particularly encouraging for freight rail investors). It is clear he truly believes there is a market for non high speed, privately operated, intercity passenger rail beyond Amtrak's national network. It does several minutes to download the video, be patient.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Either I had been previously unaware, or this is a new addition to their site, but Pullman Rail now has an FAQ page, and which gives further information regarding their service:

http://www.travelpullman.com/explore/faq.html

At this time, even for registered users, the 'book' page appears disabled. Evidently to book, you must phone them as it appears that 'browsers' are not really welcome.

Oh well, I hope Ellis and his 'High Command' are enjoying their joyrides, and Sam could well get one in himself, but I doubt if this extravaganza is long for this world.

But allow me note that I DO believe that PRJ will 'go out' just as did the Santa Fe on A-Day Eve with nothing downgraded.
 
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
 
I was able to get to the spot in making a reservation where it asked for my billing information. Plenty of "browsing" seems to be allowed.

Frank in overcast and cool SBA
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Not surprised; an awful lot of sites can no longer support IE8 which is the highest XP can support.

Oh well, that's why I have now ordered a new Inspirion desktop from Dell that will have 8.1 and presumably supports the latest IE.

I can't believe how inexpensive these things have become.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
It may be going out with a bang but a couple new trips will be offered this fall. This was according to their rep they had at the Spencer show. Around thanksgiving they will offer a trip to NYC from Chicago on the Cardinal. Around Christmas they'll have a couple trips on the LSL. One catch- got to buy a RT ticket (at least initially - I guess until they see how it sells.) He said it was on web site but I couldn't find it.

And supposedly next year it will be done a regular basis. We'll see.
 
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
 
If it is not too late, order a solid state hard drive (SSD) for your computer. Blazing fast startup and opening all programs!
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Mr. Smith, I simply ordered from Dell what my CIO neighbor, who has offered to come over and install it, what he said to. He took the time to wade through the Dell order form and check what I needed - and ignore what I did not.

I can't believe how inexpensive these things have become over the years. This System is $1738; albeit with no audio or printer. My first computer, an IBM I got during 1983, was something like $3500.
 
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
 
My two latest computers (MacBook Pro and iMac) both have solid state hard drives. They are absolutely blazingly fast. Loving this new technology!
 
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
 
Well, Gil -- I have Windows 8.1 on this new laptop, and I HATE IT!!!!!! Why does Microsoft have to ruin a good thing like XP? So what if it's old?
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Also, another 'ha-ha; bonus' of the 'upgrade', Lotus 123 is no longer published, so I will have to get Office (preloaded; all you need do is click and pay up). I'm sure I can learn it, but why when Lotus does everything I want.
 
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
 
Have a Mac, won't look back.

Goodbye, Mr Gates. Your OS is horrid. I have to have all these extras to maintain it.

Hello, Mr Jobs. Your OS works. I don't spend time maintaining my configuration, I'm productive.
 
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
 
We did sort of get away from the PRJ topic. Just to pull it back, I took #58 earlier this week which had the 2 PRJ cars on the back. Looked like about 6-8 passengers for them. Our side of the train was packed!
Tom
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Thank you Mr. Black for returning this topic to its roots. As an aside, sorry I missed a meetup; I was out of town myself this past weekend.

Good grief, it appears that the passenger count was exceeded by the staff. Who knows how many of those were farepayers???? Did you note if the Obs was round ended (Ponchartrain Club) or Butt-ended (Allegheny Club)?

Finally, I must give Mr. Ellis credit for going out in style (how can this be sustained as a going business enterprise?); so far, he has not resorted to a downgrade of the produjct by cutting the consist to one car and offering catered food service.
 
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
 
Gilbert,
It was the Ponchartrain Club. I suppose, with the reduction in fare, I could have taken the PRJ to Chicago. But the risk is that there isn't anyone on it with you, and, therefore, no one to talk to. On Amtrak there's always some one with an interesting story!
Tom
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
As of today, I have a new Dell desktop up and running; I am now able to access the PRJ website.

Thank you very much, Marshall.

It seems as if the moment Microsoft ceased to support XP, things fell like dominoes. My frequently visited sites such as New York Times clearly said they no longer supported IE7, which was becoming an annoyance as much of the site that I pay for was suddenly unavailable. Wall Street Journal (also pay) was at best 'cranky' and often crashed.

And hold your hat for this; with the trip to Salzburg now two weeks away, I decided it was time for a SMART phone. So I now have a Samsung Galaxy S5. I even have learned how to use the Google maps and have located the Hauptbahnhof, my Crowne Plaza hotel, and the Festspielhaus. Also, I downloaded on my own a German-English translator app.

My LG 'Dumbphone' is now deactivated but it can still reach 9-1-1. I know of a battered women's shelter that can put it to use and that is where it will be donated.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RRRICH:
Well, Gil -- I have Windows 8.1 on this new laptop, and I HATE IT!!!!!! Why does Microsoft have to ruin a good thing like XP? So what if it's old?

Rich, now being an 8.1 'veteran' of about twelve hours standing, I have no issues with 8.1 (would, just like you, wished Microsoft continued to support XP - even if pay); just be sure to set it for Desktop and the landscape will look far more familiar.

I have learned that MSFT is selling continued XP support to commercial users such as banks where the ATM system runs with XP.
 
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
 
Gil -- with the W 8.1 laptop on my train trip, I inserted my RR map discs into the CD drive, but I could never figure out how to open them with the Windows 8.1 "file explorer," and at one time I couldn't even get the computer turned on after I tried to use the wi-fi at Hotel Indigo in Santa Barbara, so I ended up paying $50 ($25 each way) for a taxicab from LAUPT to Best Buy (Geek Squad) in Glendale, only to have them tell me to "hard start" my computer by holding the "on" key down for 30 seconds + (why couldn't the Geek Squad guy have told me that on the phone when I first called him from the LAUPT Metropolitan lounge?)

Also, my typing is so bad that every time I tried to post a Train Web message from W 8.1, I would hit "wrong keys" every second or two and get all kinds of weird pop-ups which I never got with XP, in spite of my lousy typing.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Rich, neither of us do this stuff every day, and, with hindsight the new computer should have been ordered with a bit more lead time prior to starting your trip. However, I have my own issues to deal with at present regarding the new computer. It seems that I ordered an unneded monitor as I did not know that the monitor and the 'box' are now all in one. When my friend Marshall, CIO for a regional brokerage firm, came over to install it for me yesterday, he first said what is that extra carton? I said 'I ordered a monitor'. He said 'you didn't need to do that; it is all in one'. When he pulled it out of the carton, I said 'Where's my box?'. So right this very minute I am 'listening to the music' with Dell to return the monitor ($250). Now I just heard from somebody over in India who says within 24 hours they will email me return labels for either UPS or Fedex.

No wonder I simply NEVER order tangible goods over the internet. This time I made an exception as Marshall took his time to select what I needed - and didn't need. He sent it to me on line and that is how I ended up ordering it such. Had I ordered it by phone as I had two pevious Dells, the Sales Rep surely would have explained to me all in one means both box snd monitor together.

Oh well, at least Dell includes Sales Tax so I need not file a separate Use Tax Return.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Update; shipping documents showed up from Dell; after my morning "hopscotching around India for help", it was almost anticlimactic to have the e-mail show up authorizing the monitor's return.

I took it down to a UPS facility (somewhat West of Cass on 63rd, Rich), and it is their job to get it back to Dell.

Oh, and the shipment was Prepaid by Dell.
 
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
 
Getting back to Pullman Rail Journeys, Trip Advisor reviews are quite mixed:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g35805-d3948641-Reviews-Pullman_Rail_Journeys-Chicago_Illinois.html

Richard
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Anybody?????

https://www.travelpullman.com/packages/fun-in-the-sun.html

I guess he wants to see how many packages get sold before offering rail only passage.
 
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
 
If one needs to ask then one can't afford it.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
I received an email from PRJ today offering 50% off the $3500 or whatever for the "Fun in the Sun" tour package.

I'd guess bookings are not where they expected them to be. Willing to bet that "rail only " will be quite available lest anyone be interested.
 
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
 
GBN, I hope you will treat yourself to a Christmas present courtesy of PRJ. They might even give you a deal of a one way fare, then United home. It might not be the City of Miami but will be a big improvement over Amtrak.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
Tempting; but I think it will be a late February junket to Miami and two Cleveland Orchestra concerts for which I booked the hotel (Marriott Biscayne Bay; catty corner to the Arsht Center) some ten months ago. Auto Train could be part of the deal; so might a meet up with Ocala Mike.
 
Posted by Ocala Mike (Member # 4657) on :
 
Sounds doable, Gil. Also, I was contacted through Twitter by an old college pal who had a long career with Electric Boat in New London, CT who may be visiting one of his relatives in Sarasota early April or so. Slight detour off I-75, and might get together with him. He's also a bit of an Amtrak aficianado.
 
Posted by 50 year railfan (Member # 61148) on :
 
I'm curious that there have not been any posts regarding the loss of the contract with Amtrak. Does this mean that those of you in the know realize that the service is gone forever, or will further negotiations lead to a better outcome?

I'm not one who would ever likely ride this train, but I have admired the effort - especially the early video of the long string of IC Pullman cars on an early run.
 
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
 
"Over thy wounds now do I prophesize..."

quote:
Finally, I guess Ellis is out of business "for the duration".
I had no knowledge whatever until Mr. Railfan's immediate posting that PRJ was out of the "scheduled of sorts" CHI-NOL business. A quick review of their webpage suggests that they are now another "private car for hire" business.

Apparently, their next adventure will be some kind of CHI-Louisville journey for the Kentucky Derby. However PRJ will be remembered by me for my "one click away" escapade.

"Have car, will travel"
 


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