KCT is a Class 3 terminal railroad. It controls the main North of Union Station and the trackage connecting the main back to the BNSF and the UP (ol Missouri Pacific in particular).
Since KCT is a Class 3, it does not require PTC.
Amtrak is a Class 1. It requires PTC.
Amtrak and the owners of KCT (UP/Berkshire Hathaway) either hash this out, OR...
The Buzzards (Eagles) (River Runners) can turn at Lee's Summit.
AND ...
Either divert service to Omaha...Denver, thence down to Albuquerque and LA, OR...
Just put up the 180 day notices and break out the ADIOS drumheads...
Posted by yukon11 (Member # 2997) on :
I have to think, Mr. Pullman, that your scenario of diverting the SWC to Omaha & Denver could play out.
I wonder, besides Kansas City, if there are other Amtrak hubs that will undergo the same problem.
The cost of PTC, from what I have read, is about $52,000 per mile of track. A total of $9 billion nationwide and, possibly, much more than that.
Richard
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
About how many route miles and/or track miles is involved in this?
If the $52k per mile is accurate then KCS would appear to be wanting 615 miles of track with PTC. However, PTC "per mile" is little misleading when in the context of smaller areas: complex areas like multi-track stations are a lot more expensive than a single track main line with passing loops every 10 miles.
Posted by palmland (Member # 4344) on :
While Amtrak is a Class 1, it only owns trackage in the northeast and Michigan. It would seem to me that PTC rules would apply based on the railroad that owns the trackage (and therefore installs the equipment) rather than the railroad that operates the train. Perhaps all that is needed is an FRA ruling.
In western Kansas and Colorado is the BNSF still maintaining ATS? Can't believe they are installing a new PTC system there since little or no freight traffic.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Not Kansas City Southern
Kansas City Terminal
The Terminal Railroad is a consortium, owned by UP, BNSF, KCS, NS (through their many predecessor roads).
It controls the Mark Twain Bridge, the trackage through Union Station, ... you get the point.
As such, it's a Class 3. KCS is certainly a 2, if not currently a 1 (and if a 1, requires PTC).
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Mr. Pullman; we forget the CP (MILW)?
KCT is divided into many zones, which means that the roads only need pay for what of the facility they actually use.
MILW, and fellow Class 1 KCS, established their own agency located at Knoche Yard in North KC, which enabled them to escape the massive bureaucracy KCT had built up over the years. There is also an interchange between the two roads that avoids any use of KCT facilities.
The Googlemobile wisely respects private property and thus avoids any further view of Knoche.
There is a map of Kansas City railroad facilities appearing in this past March TRAINS. A review of such would enhance this discussion.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
An update on 2 July:
On public radio station KCUR (University of Missouri--Kansas City) a 2 minute news article of local content reported that Amtrak just does not have the funds to upgrade KC to PTC.
I would assess the risk of Amtrak leaving KC on 31 December as MODERATE. I do not see Kansas City Terminal (UP/BNSF/KCS/who else) yielding lightly on this.
Leads me to a question: Who owns the tracks at Chicago Union Station????
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
GBN,
Actually, Knoche is South of the River, but North of UP (MP) Neff Yard.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: KCT is divided into many zones, which means that the roads only need pay for what of the facility they actually use.
It's not as simple as that for PTC though. The tracks that passenger trains run on obviously need to be protected themselves - but those tracks also need to be protected from other, non-PTC tracks. I don't know what the requirements are for such interactions but there's not much point having a flat crossing with a non-PTC track if you don't either put PTC on that track a mile or two either side of the flat crossing, or install permanent derailers in a place where a derailing train still does not foul the PTC track. Either way, not cheap. And who pays for the protection on the non-PTC track?
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
quote:Leads me to a question: Who owns the tracks at Chicago Union Station????
from the feasibility study of a 2nd MSP-CHI daily train:
quote:Beginning at the corridor’s east terminus, Chicago Union Station (CUS), Amtrak owns all of the station trackage north to the Canal Street grade crossing, a total route distance of 0.6 miles.
It appears that Amtrak owns the trackage at CUS. How far it extends south isn't clear.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vincent206: [QUOTE]It appears that Amtrak owns the trackage at CUS. How far it extends south isn't clear.
I suddenly had a recollection: there's a drawbridge on the "South Branch Chicago River" which Google labels as "Canal St Railroad Bridge" while some railroad maps I have label it as "South Branch Bridge". I recall reading somewhere that this bridge is the handover of control, and the railroad maps seem to back that up.
Westwards I believe the handover is at Halsted St somewhere.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
Yes, I believe that is correct that AMTRAK owns all trackage at CUS and the southern approaches to the station.
Posted by Vincent206 (Member # 15447) on :
A Kansas City news station is reporting that a tentative deal is in place to keep the SW Chief and River Runners running. Details of the plan are not available at this time.
quote: Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said in a statement Monday that a tentative agreement was reached to keep the trains running. He said details of the agreement are not final.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Ditto from Kansas Public Radio in their 8AM hourly newscast.