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In another thread, I was asked what the design lifespan was for a railroad passenger cars or locomotives. I know from anecdotal experience, that the design lifespan for locomotives, when they are well-maintained, is measured in decades. However, they won't last forever.
The passenger cars that Amtrak first started with were from the late 1930s to about the 1960s. Most of them lasted in regular revenue service until the 1970s and 1980s. They won't last forever, either.
The Superliners, Amfleets, and Viewliners will also not last forever. The relative age of the fleet will be catching up to Amtrak. Many of the Amfleets are nearing 30 years age (and they are showing it), with the first batch of Superliners not far behind. These cars will require more maintenace and TLC as they age in order to keep them in service. Also keep in mind that the mechanical skills and people won't be around forever, either. People retire, or occupations cease to exist due to technology, or people take a new job somewhere else. Any way it happens, the ability to fix a car with a certain skill is lost. Amtrak either trains a replacement worker, or adopts new techniques for maintaining the cars.
My point being that Amtrak will be at its most vulnerable to termination right when the replacement of the cars currently in service has to take place. The purchase of replacement equipment will be a major "big bucks" budget item for Amtrak, and our Congress members may balk at having to pay for the new fleet. The lack of a large domestic car builder car supplier will also serve as an impediment, as this means little to no "pork-barrel" incentive for certain lawmakers.
Other members of the Forum may have other thoughts on this. Can the purchase of replacements for the current Amtrak fleet be done without it becoming more political than the issues surrounding Amtrak already are?
[This message has been edited by CG96 (edited 02-03-2004).]
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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I agree that day is approaching, but I think there's still a lot of life left in Amtrak's current fleet. VIA still has cars from the 1950s going strong, and many more are in still in service with charter operators, AOE, etc. Surely the Superliners can go at least another 10 years, probably much more.
There is hope in some bills working their way through Congress, which would authorize up to $2 billion per year in rail related capital expenses. States and Amtrak would be eligible for these funds, assuming one or the other of these bills passes. It may not happen this year, but there's still time, and I think more members of Congress are slowly starting to "get it." People like John McCain are starting to lose influence over Amtrak.
That's my two cents, anyway.
And if they ever design a Superliner III, I sure hope they make larger rest rooms!
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
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Many of the classic Budd and Pullman-Standard passenger cars from the 1940s and 50s would still be serving Amtrak today if the "toilet issue" hadn't sent them into retirement.
But the Viewliners I've traveled in? They're already beginning to rattle apart -- even though, in "railroad years," they're practically brand new.
Whether you're talking about automobiles, washing machines, TV sets, or railroad cars, the concept of building something to last really disappeared during the Eisenhower administration. They just don't make 'em the way they used to. And I agree that it's probably going to create major budget problems for Amtrak somewhere down the line.
CG96 Member # 1408
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Who would be contracted for the construction of these cars? Somehow, I don't see Colorado Railcar doing everything. Would it be possible for Beech Grove to do some final assembly, while, say, Bombardier or GE-Alstom does some? Super Steel in MKE? Northern Railcar?
Also, would it be nice to have a thrid design out on the Rails?
boyishcolt Member # 3001
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it would be good if you could have one contractor such as the old Budd & Pullman set up. but it may not be possible in this day and age.so much of everything is "quick and fast" and "just in time" with production being done all over the world and assembled in one place (ie. Boeing and Airbus) but it is not made to last and last anymore.the cheaper better faster i think doesn't work in every field. look what happened at NASA
20th Century Member # 2196
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I always preferred the old Budd and Pullman standard cars for comfort and functionality. I enjoy traveling in the Canadian's single sleepers much more than the single sleeper in an Amtrak Superliner. The amfleet cars, as mentioned on this board, don't measure to their roominess, or reliability in cold weather during long distance travel. Never tried a Viewliner, but I have traveled in the deluxe superliner room once. That was nice!
20th Century Member # 2196
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p.s. seems to me it would have been much better if Amtrak could have found a way to install retention toilets and showers in the 50's streamliner sleepers and do the same with retention toilets in the 50's coaches....at least for eastern states travel. Does anyone know if they considered that?
PullmanCo Member # 1138
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Funny, I started a similar thread at a different site.
Congressional Office of Technology Assessment, even in the 80s, looked at economics of US passenger railcar industry. When and if we re-capitalize, it will be a challenge to do it onshore. Period.
Rader/Colorado will need to get to a 200 car per year level of effort to sustain fleet replacement on a ten year cycle. BTW, they work in Cor-Ten (TM), not stainless.
Again, from the Congressional report: Design life of a railcar is 15 years, with a 100% life extension if the car is rebuilt.
I honestly think the politics and timing of a recapitalization effort will be the toughest part of this problem. If, indeed, a key COngressional (read pork) question is domestic jobs as a consequence of the effort, Amtrak will be in political trouble.
As far as Budd or Pullman going back into business, forget it. Budd is long since a member of Thyssen AG of Germany, and they are OUT of the car business. Heck, most of their production in their corporate name is small auto parts. I'm not even sure you can find who owns the estate of Pullman-Standard anymore, without a liability attorney.
My two cents.
John
------------------ The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
[This message has been edited by PullmanCo (edited 02-05-2004).]
CG96 Member # 1408
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quote:Originally posted by 20th Century: p.s. seems to me it would have been much better if Amtrak could have found a way to install retention toilets and showers in the 50's streamliner sleepers and do the same with retention toilets in the 50's coaches....at least for eastern states travel. Does anyone know if they considered that?
i'd be more inclined to gto with the toilet type that the old cars had. It seems to me that the retention toilets clog up and freeze shut so often during the winter that it makes more sense to go back to the old style toilets. I recall something to the effect that Amtrak was taken to court, and won the case to keep the old style, drain-right-to-the-tracks type of facilities. Does anyone recall the particulars about why Amtrak changed its corporate mind as to why the chioce was made to install these more troublesome toilets when the existing methods and facilities were sufficient?
[This message has been edited by CG96 (edited 02-06-2004).]
RRRICH Member # 1418
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CG - you can thank the "environmentalists" for that........
20th Century Member # 2196
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Aren't Via Rail 50's/60's Canadian rail cars similar to Amtrak's former Heritage fleet? Did Via Rail install retention toilets in those cars? They are still using them. I suppose their environmental laws allowed for exceptions.
CG96 Member # 1408
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I think that VIA Rail's cars may be allowed under some sort of "Grandfather" clause in Canadian laws. Of course, the laws simply could be different. In the Amtrak case, I have it on good authority that Amtrak won the case, i.e., they could have the old fashioned toilets if Amtrak chose to do so. Again, why the change?
boyishcolt Member # 3001
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Amtrak won the case then the EPA changed the laws on dumping raw sewage in Canada they still dump as they please they still Dump raw sewage in the bay in Victoria and let the tide take it out (good crab fishing there because of it)
Rheboi Member # 2994
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I knew there was a good reason I didn't like crab meat!!!
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