posted
I have not had the opportunity yet to experience the new Superliner Food Cars , evidently presently being tested on the Capitol Limited.
From what I understand, there is also a "standard" diner on the train , too , at least temporarily. Whew !!!!
Anyhow, I presume there will come a time when all (or most) Superliners will have just the one new food-service car.
Here are some questions I have:
Food preparation will evidently now be in the bottom of this car. I presume the bottom will now no longer be open to the public as a "Snack-bar" area. Where will the "Snack-bar" area be placed for those passengers who do not want to buy from the regular menu ?
So a full one-half of the car will have tables for "menu" meal service. This will severly limit seating for "observation's" sake (if you know what I mean.) Will passengers in those seats be told that they cannot remain in those seats for lengthy periods of time ?
With this new arrangement, it seems as those "foot-traffic" thru the "dining" area will be heavy as coach passengers (in particular) traverse thru that area to get back and forth to the "observation" seats. I realize this happens in the standard dining-cars today, but not to any great extent because coach passengers enter the Sight-seer car without passing thru the dining-car. But that will no longer be the case. I think this will be very "distracting" to diners.
It seems to me that this new food-service arrangement will "rush" the whole meal experience for all passengers , not just those in first class. I for one would not like this.
Personally, I do not know how this new system will work without BOTH a "standard" Sight-seer Lounge Car AND this new food service car. With just the one new food-service car , passengers who want to use the car solely for "observation" will be greatly disappointed.
I am not going to give the new cars a "thumbs-down" until I actually experience what the whole process entails.
I think the real "test" will come if/when the Superliners switch to just the ONE new food-service/"observation" car. I think that would prove to be a real "disaster." I guess we will see.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Apparently, Mr. Talkrr, there is only one #37XXX car available for service. One consist will of course have only a 33XXX (Lounge) and 38XXX(Diner).
But let us give Amtrak credit for not deciding on "sink or swim' and instantly yank the Diner and Lounge.
No question whatever, there will be less space available for "observing' people and scenery, but that is the objective of BOTH the Administration and Congress that Amtrak should no longer be providing a "travel experience' as distinct from Point A to B transportation, and in the process continue to have the catalyst for the "218+51+1" often here by Mr. Pullman remain to ensure funding for what counts - that of course is the Corridor.
When the California Zephyr was placed in service during 1949, the normal consist offered 138 Coach seats and 98 Berths for sale. It also offered 140 non-revenue Dome seats, some 40 Lounge seats and 48 Diner seats as well. In short, in addition to the seat or berth the passenger paid for, there was one more available for his/her ancilliary pleasure. In a publicly funded "program', such largesse cannot exist (that it makes the product "more attractive' is irrelavent), as Rep Mica (R-7th-FL) is watching - and he has "the right' vote on "the right' committee to control the purse strings - and, outside the Corridor, and of course the Auto Train, we know how much he LOVES Amtrak.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
posted
But Rep Mica will soon be ex-chairman of the "the right' committee. Isn't Rep Oberstar (D-MN) on deck to become chairman. He is a friend of passenger rail and favors expansion. I have not heard his views on the LD's, but only an LD runs through his state.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Mr. TwinStar, I will never dismiss the possibility that in a political environment that suddenly after the 110th Congress convenes, the #37XXX SDS conversions are stopped dead in the tracks, full Dining service, complete with regional menus and 'chef's discressionary preparation" return, and "Empire Builder' on-board service initiated system-wide, could happen.
It has happened once before; namely during the "mid 80's' after the Reagan administration's "shutter down' initiative failed. Full dining service was "quietly restored".
Believe you me, from one who has "been there done that", SDS is quality food, when compared with the "microchow" from that earlier initiative.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by TALKrr: I have not had the opportunity yet to experience the new Superliner Food Cars , evidently presently being tested on the Capitol Limited.....Food preparation will evidently now be in the bottom of this car. I presume the bottom will now no longer be open to the public as a "Snack-bar" area.
The prototype currently in service testing on the Capitol Limited is a converted diner, and never had any public access to the lower kitchen level.
Converted sightseer lounges, of which none exist yet, WILL have seating on the lower level for patrons. These are intended for reserved seating and full table service much as is provided in current diners.
In regards to the prototype, NARP reports that Amtrak has already determined that the seating configuration will need to change in order to allow people to see out both sides of the car. The prototype faces people towards one window with their backs to the other.
I share concerns that this may reduce accessibility for casual lounging. But they are leaving open the possibility of having TWO such cars on the trains when traffic warrants it, resulting in no net change in dining and lounge capacity over the present.
I suspect that for those times when only one car is needed, separate diners and lounges probably don't fill up anyway. Or at least that's what Amtrak believes.
Also, bear in mind that only Superliner I lounges and diners are to be converted. I'm not even sure if all of those are to be converted. Superliner II lounges and diners will continue to operate as they do now. So this is not a systemwide conversion by any means. So hold your shorts on, and don't jump to any conclusions before the facts are in. Amtrak is making the effort to gauge customer response before plunging into something they can't reverse. I suggest anyone who has concerns about this contact Amtrak directly and let them know how you feel and how it will affect your patronage. "CC" your comments to your elected representatives while you're at it.
Capltd29 Member # 3292
posted
With the diner-lounge open all day, will reservations still be offered, albeit maybe not required? I imagine that the diner may become overloaded at some points during the day. How might this be controlled?
PaulB Member # 4258
posted
Amtrak has stated that they are planning a continuous dining service, doing away with reservations. Dining will be available from 6ish until 11PM. Details are yet to be worked out.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
Not entirely. On non-converted dining cars there will be no change in the way services are offered over the present operation.
On converted diners there will be all day service with no reservations.
On converted sightseer lounges there will be all day service without reservations on the upper level and reserved seating service on the lower level, much as is done in current dining cars.
MDRR Member # 2992
posted
Just spoke with a crewmember from the Capital Ltd, He said so far they have been just running the car in place of the lounge...that Amtrak has realized that with the seating the way it is it won't be able to handle the capacity needed.
They are planning to run a trip with 2 diners in service, the prototype and a regular to handle the overflow just to get a feel for it operationally.
jp1822 Member # 2596
posted
I think we should reflect on comments above:
1) Not all trains are being changed systemwide all at once to this combo diner/lounge arrangement
2) Amtrak has halted production of the 37XX cars due to operational issues noted above.
3) Anything could happen with these cars - as Mr. Norman pointed out we could have a complete reversal.
4) Try out these new dining services that Amtrak initiates (i.e. the 37XX car etc.) and write to Amtrak, that is (a) Kummant (b) Laney (c) Customer Services regarding your experience.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by MDRR: Just spoke with a crewmember from the Capital Ltd, He said so far they have been just running the car in place of the lounge...that Amtrak has realized that with the seating the way it is it won't be able to handle the capacity needed.
And many of us suspected as much. Still, it leaves the option open of utilizing two such cars when traffic demands (which is probably most of the time), and just one during slow periods.
CHI_Amtrak_Fan Member # 4004
posted
Photos from my recent trip aboard the Capitol Limited that used car 37000 as a lounge only, behind a "normal" dining car.
A full written trip report with impressions and obvervations will follow.
Cheers, David Z Chicago, IL
PaulB Member # 4258
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Nice shots. Thanks for sharing.
20th Century Member # 2196
posted
Thank you Mr. Toy and CHI_Amtrak_Fan. That diner lounge looks classy to me. So does there furbished sleeper. Will they continue with these refurbishments? The last I have read on this forum was that refurbishment of sleepers will be discontinued, or did I misunderstand something?
20th Century Member # 2196
posted
p.s. sorry, the pics of the refurbished sleeper are on another thread...but thanks again!
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
Thanks David Z. Excellent photos.
I can't say I'm impressed with the car judging from the pictures. It looks about as comfortable as a typical McDonalds. That black vinyl looks cold and uninviting. Ditto for the hard floor. Why not carpet? Current diners have carpet.
The bar looks nice, as do the lighting and window vents.
I like that the car has the food service bar in the center. But in my opinion, even if only one car is used, dining and lounge areas should be distinct from each other - e.g. at opposite ends.
CHI_Amtrak_Fan Member # 4004
posted
quote:Originally posted by CHI_Amtrak_Fan: A full written trip report with impressions and obvervations will follow.
posted
David, Thanks for putting up all the great photos. I must say the look of the cars is very nice, however it is still nothing of a Railroad Dining Car. The other thing that others have previously mentioned is the windows facing inward. I cannot understand how Amtrak thought it would be a good idea to do that. Most of the table configurations discourage discussion with fellow passengers, and looking out the window. I sincerely hope that future cars like this one are either modified, or kept to limited usage on only a few trains.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
David, great report! I hope you send a copy to Amtrak. The whole point of the prototype is to gauge customer opinion, and you have expressed yours well.
I note your mention that you were looking at the back of another person's head. That is something I noticed in early drawings of the car. They could easily remedy that by placing outward facing seats opposite each other and inward facing seats towards each other. But I understand that Amtrak plans to change the arrangement so table booths aren't limited to one direction of view.
I also note your comment that the seats have rather stiff backs, if that is a correct interpretation. From the photos they look that way, and rather cold.
The small cocktail tables are very much like those in the Pacific Parlour Car, which in turn were much like those of the streamliner era (which I experienced in Amtrak's pre-Superliner days). Regardless of the era, they were never meant for anything more than holding the drinks of socializing patrons. I don't think there's enough room to make them significantly bigger.
And I still think they need to separate diners from loungers rather than intermixing them. The two activities generate different vocal levels which are often not compatible. Either the bar or the aisle make a reasonable defining line.
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
David Z.
Thanks for both the pictures and the expanded report.
From what I have seen and heard, I hope that this prototype car is never used for anything other than a lounge car. The meal service table groupings are way too small for accomodating four adults......particularly four strangers.
I don't see how four plates with beverage glasses would even fit on that table. Further, I am a large person (6'4".....often mistaken for a former football player) and left handed. I would need nearly an entire side of the table grouping and my left arm would need to face the aisle.
If these cars become the norm, I'm afraid that I might actually have to resort to having my meals packed to go and eating in my room. What's the fun in that? That effectively eliminates one of the major appeals of rail travel in the first place.
I do like the 'look' of this car and there are a few good ideas here - Having the cafe service area UPSTAIRS on a superliner train is an improvement. The expanded menu with warm appetizers looks like an improvement.
I do not like the table groupings facing the same way and I do not like the idea of intermixing the lounge and diner functions. I would like to see a lounge space with a variety of seating options like in the newer superliner lounges. Those new lounges with tables at one end are an example of a situation where sit-down meal service could be provided at meal times in the same car as the lounge functions. I could envision two such cars on the Empire Builder for instance......with one going to Portland and the other Seattle.
Having said that, I do agree that on some trains both lounge and sit-down dining functions can be carried out on the same car. The City of New Orleans might be a candidate. A Superliner equipped Cardinal would also be a good candidate.
Amtrak is to be commended for thinking outside the box and for trying a prototype first. The idea still needs lots of tweaking though.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
posted
Seems like a non-carpeted floor could get kind of slippery when wet, especially on a lurching train. There also seems to less sound deadening surfaces.
A few people, including myself occasionally, use the three seat sections of the current lounge to sleep in overnight. It looks like you could still do that, if they stil let you.
Mike Smith Member # 447
posted
I have a thought....
In an RV, the dining table folds down, the seat cushions slide over the table, and that table becomes a bed. How about selling that idea to Amtrak.
Coach people could rent the "table/bed" from 10:00 pm to 6:00 am for $35. No privacy, but they would have an actual bed for the night.
Mike Smith Member # 447
posted
double post
train lady Member # 3920
posted
Being of the "if if aint broke don't fix it" school of thought I do not like it "Sam I Am". Ok enough silliness but really I like the dining tables the way they were/are. This new configuration looks uncomfortable. I can't see from the pictures how all the dishes can fit on that table. I lke looking out of the window and if you had a table on the "wrong side" that would be hampered/ If the 2 other people were big in any way the other 2 would be squished in and everyone would be uncomfortaable. No I am happy with as is and wish they would leave things alone!!!!
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
quote:Originally posted by train lady: Being of the "if if aint broke don't fix it" school of thought I do not like it "Sam I Am". Ok enough silliness but really I like the dining tables the way they were/are. This new configuration looks uncomfortable. I can't see from the pictures how all the dishes can fit on that table. I lke looking out of the window and if you had a table on the "wrong side" that would be hampered/ If the 2 other people were big in any way the other 2 would be squished in and everyone would be uncomfortaable. No I am happy with as is and wish they would leave things alone!!!!
I agree with you for dining configuration.
The concepts they are experimenting with here may well find their way into future lounge car configuration - - and that would be OK with some modification.
train lady Member # 3920
posted
David, I am more willing to be open to lounge car changes, though I am perfectly satisfied with them now. But I am not open to radical change ( actually I guess it is any change ) in the dining arrangements. Not that my opinion was asked!
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
quote:Originally posted by train lady: David, I am more willing to be open to lounge car changes, though I am perfectly satisfied with them now. But I am not open to radical change ( actually I guess it is any change ) in the dining arrangements. Not that my opinion was asked!
Like you, I see NO way that they are able to get four plates for four individual patrons at those tables!
train lady Member # 3920
posted
The suspicious part of my personna tells me that just maybe this is all a scheme to make us so uncomfortable that we will stop using Amtrak and do as our president said,"fly or Drive".
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
Train Lady,
Yes. At the very least an attempt to make the full service dining experience so unpleasant that we will all settle for just grabbing a couple of 'warm appetizers' between 11:00am and 11:00pm.
Maybe the infamous 'automat cars' are next?
CHI_Amtrak_Fan Member # 4004
posted
I think Amtrak will realize it's mistakes on the sizing and grouping of tables. This was an "alpha" build as a software developer would say of a Diner Lounge concept. I think this car has potential to make a nice combination of dining and lounge services that will afford better service on less travelled routes like the Cardinal, and reduced operating costs during low travel seasons aboard the Capitol Limited, City of New Orleans, Texas Eagle, and Sunset Limited.
I look forward to a second version of the Diner Lounge and Amtrak's continued effort to provide good service while reducing (not necessarily eliminating) tax payer's subsidies.
David Z
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
David, I agree with you. I don't think Amtrak is trying to drive people away. The company is under a legal mandate to cut food costs and failure to do so, under current law, may result in more drastic changes. If Amtrak is to be faulted, it is for failing to stand up for itself in Congress, but 35 years of such treatment from Congress has conditioned the company to sheepishly follow whatever mandates are given.
Amtrak is making the effort to do this in a way that is acceptable to both the customer and Congress. That seems like a reasonable middle ground to take, even if it is not ideal.
NARP has reported that "Amtrak already has concluded that the seating needs to be changed to make it easier for passengers to view out both sides of the car." To me that implies the outward facing booths will change to something closer to current diner seating. There is more on this page: http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/resources/more/diner_lounge_schedule
20th Century Member # 2196
posted
I think Amtrak did stand up for itself with the leadership of David Gunn. The solution was to fire him. But his replacement does not seem all that bad. As for the diner lounge it seems to be designed more for socialization than dining and viewing. I like it only because the arrangement has a retro look of the streamliner club/lounge/tavern cars of yesteryear.
train lady Member # 3920
posted
It seems to me that they are more concerned with ambiance than food and comfort. I personally don't care what color is used as long as the diner is clean ,comfortable, and not garish. If I want art deco I will go to a gallery. My reasons for the diner are an enjoyable meal, meeting new people and watching a changing landscape as we eat.
20th Century Member # 2196
posted
I agree train lady. But some ambiance (without the garishness)is nice. Especially if both the present diners (with enjoyable meals) and the diner lounges are used. But it seems Amtrak's only choice will be one or the other.
train lady Member # 3920
posted
You're right. Some ambiance is nice. I am normally an observant person about my surroundings but I must admit after many years of train travel I haven't a clue as to the colors, fabrics,walls etc of the diner. I do think it would be nice to have the diner and lounge cars separate.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
quote:Originally posted by 20th Century: I think Amtrak did stand up for itself with the leadership of David Gunn.
Generally, I agree, but as it relates to food service, it was Gunn who renegotiated the food service contract that led us to similified dining service.
quote:Originally posted by trainlady: You're right. Some ambiance is nice. I am normally an observant person about my surroundings but I must admit after many years of train travel I haven't a clue as to the colors, fabrics,walls etc of the diner.
If its a Superliner I diner the seats are brownish. If its a Superliner II the seats are burgundy. Neither are particularly memorable. Today's diners are purely functional.
But don't discount the importance of aesthetics. There was an article in Trains magazine a few years back about the guy who designed the Genesis locomotive exterior and the Cascades trainsets (interior and exterior). I don't have the magazine immediately at hand, but I think his name was Vergera or something like that. He (and the people who hired him) believed that clean, modern attractive trains were an important means of attracting business. He said aestheitcs may only be 1% of railroading, but it is 100% of what the customer sees. I am inclined to agree.
train lady Member # 3920
posted
I think my point is when one has a limited amount of money to spend it makes sense to put it into the most important things first, To me the food is more important than the "modern' ambiance. Others may feel differently but the new configuration turns me off. I think it's a waste of money. (which with Amtrak is in short supply) But I do understand your remarks.
20th Century Member # 2196
posted
I didn't know that Gunn's renegotiations led to the simplified dining service. Interesting. What's more interesting is out the of control Gov't spending which certainly does not include Amtrak. Funding for Amtrak is not the major cause of our Nat'l debt. Congress forcing it to curb spending by introducing simplified dining service is rather ludicrous.
notelvis Member # 3071
posted
quote:Originally posted by 20th Century: I didn't know that Gunn's renegotiations led to the simplified dining service. Interesting. What's more interesting is out the of control Gov't spending which certainly does not include Amtrak. Funding for Amtrak is not the major cause of our Nat'l debt. Congress forcing it to curb spending by introducing simplified dining service is rather ludicrous.
I believe that Mr. Toy was referring to the contract with the vendor for on-board food services which Amtrak entered into early in David Gunn's tenure. There were problems with the quality in some cases and costs were on the rise. This is what caught the bean counters attention and led to the micro-managing legislation which in turn led to SDS.
I agree with you that spending even a single nano-second trying to convince anyone that SDS will produce a balanced budget is....well....ludicrous! (I LIKE that word!)
UncleBuck44 Member # 2049
posted
Sorry to bring this old thread up again but its the most recent regarding the diner-lounge car.
I've been out of railroadin' for a little while so I got my first look at this new combo of dining service and sight seeing just yesterday thanks to David Z's photos(which BTW are excellent, thank you David.) My first impressions of the car are . Outside of a few improvements, most notably the upper level snack and beverage stand as mentioned by Mr. Toy, I'm not a huge fan of the car.
I really agree with notelvis. The seating arrangement is horrible, and I mean horrible. Its not a bad arrangement for a street side cafe, but for a train diner/lounge..uhhhh...no. Glad to hear that Amtrak has recognized the need to change the seating arrangement. Can't wait to see the new one.(is it out yet, this is a pretty old thread )
I'll also add that I don't see how you can fit that many people in that car. The booths look cramped and the tables are small(which I heard is being fixed as well). I also thought I read that one of the advantages of the new diner/lounge is that you won't have to share tables with strangers. I think most people will like that, but that just adds to my point about there not being enough room. At least you can fit 4 to a table in the dining cars even if you have to sit 4 strangers together. If you're only putting 2 to a table in the diner/lounges, you're going to run out of space quickly. And then you're going to have people taking up space just wanting to enjoy the lounge experience.
It appears that Amtrak will throw one of these new diner/lounges on the Texas Eagle(or perhaps they already have). I just don't see anyway it will fetch rave reviews unless you are able to snag a seat and stay there for awhile. And I know dinner is served along the southbound Chicago to St. Louis portion of the trip and that an extra car is added just for that portion. I just have a feeling the limited seating isn't going to work too well.
What kind of reviews has the diner-lounge been getting? How many of you guys and gals have experienced the new car?
And again, sorry to bring up this old thread but I'm just trying to catch up on a few things.
posted ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
. Outside of a few improvements, most notably the upper level snack and beverage stand as mentioned by Mr. Toy, I'm not a huge fan of the car.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)