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Mr. Gilbert B. Norman mused in a thread about GPS on the train a couple of weeks ago about GPS receivers not being a very good thing for many automobile drivers. How right he was:
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Aside from the distraction of a GPS I think they take the fun out of plotting your own course using a good map (especially one with rail lines). My wife probably disagrees.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Hope that fellow took out full collision coverage!!!
When my Sister takes a ride in my auto, she is always asking if there is a way to turn the factory installed GPS device off?
I'm an ol' navigator myself, and I guess I enjoyed "plotting things out". I especially enjoyed this TV flick as it most definitely called upon navigation skills to confront the dilemma.
But with deterioriating eyesight and reflexes, it is indeed comforting to have the "mechanical maid" saying "turn right on to I three five five". Just one less thing to worry about when behind the wheel.
RussM Member # 3627
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Only a few days before that incident, I was riding the Meto North back from Grand Central to Wassaic, and my train was halted for a car stuck at that same crossing (Green Lane in Bedford Hills, NY). We had to wait about 45 minutes for a tow truck to remove the vehicle. That crossing seems to have a jinx, but I think the problem has more to do with idiots trying to beat the gates than GPS.
tarheelman Member # 6095
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quote:Originally posted by RussM: Only a few days before that incident, I was riding the Meto North back from Grand Central to Wassaic, and my train was halted for a car stuck at that same crossing (Green Lane in Bedford Hills, NY). We had to wait about 45 minutes for a tow truck to remove the vehicle. That crossing seems to have a jinx, but I think the problem has more to do with idiots trying to beat the gates than GPS.
Aside from getting stuck in the gates, I don't see how else a vehicle can get stuck at a grade crossing. I've seen some bad crossings in my time, but never any bad enough to cause a vehicle to become stuck.
Doc Brown Member # 4724
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: Aside from the distraction of a GPS I think they take the fun out of plotting your own course using a good map (especially one with rail lines). My wife probably disagrees.
I think I'l side with your wife, though probably for different reasons. Up until recently I felt I had no need for one. I love maps and felt exactly the way you do. Once I got the GPS, I've found it to be an enhancement to paper maps and trip planning. I've discovered a whole new hobby of geocoding, that is creating POI data with maps and coordinates for use on my GPS. For those interested, http://www.poi-factory.com/ is a great place to get started doing this. There are several Amtrak station files on the site too.
As far as the guy hitting the train, he would have eventually hit something anyway. He was probably too embarassed to admit he was being stupid, so he blamed the GPS.
rresor Member # 128
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I pay a monthly fee for a GPS service via my cell phone, and I've found it to be both accurate and useful. The user interface is very well-designed. The only caution I have is that, as with any GPS unit, it can be off by as much as 10 or 20 feet -- which is not a problem if you are also making use of your eyes, ears, and brain.
Having spent my entire working career in the transportation industry, I also enjoy maps, but GPS navigation is just so convenient -- and sometimes I even find new routes I would not have chosen off a map (and the GPS unit has *always* been right about them).
palmland Member # 4344
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quote:Originally posted by Doc Brown:
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Aside from the distraction of a GPS I think they take the fun out of plotting your own course using a good map (especially one with rail lines). My wife probably disagrees.
I think I'l side with your wife, though probably for different reasons. Up until recently I felt I had no need for one. I love maps and felt exactly the way you do. Once I got the GPS, I've found it to be an enhancement to paper maps and trip planning. I've discovered a whole new hobby of geocoding, that is creating POI data with maps and coordinates for use on my GPS. For those interested, http://www.poi-factory.com/ is a great place to get started doing this. There are several Amtrak station files on the site too.
As far as the guy hitting the train, he would have eventually hit something anyway. He was probably too embarassed to admit he was being stupid, so he blamed the GPS.
Thanks Doc. The POI site sounds interesting, I'll take a look. Maybe this old d-o-g can learn a new trick.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The problem with GPS and computers also, for that matter, is when people believe them absolutely rather than using them as part of their information gathering and calculation processes. If it is made by mankind and used by mankind, errors are possible. I love computers for calculations and analysis, but the results are never better than what was put in to get there, and we had better never forget it. Same for GPS. If what you see on the GPS and what you see out the window disagree with each other, trusting the machine can be disasterous.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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Amen, George. As a private pilot I have experienced too many GPS outages aloft to put my entire trust in them. Same with Loran and VOR/DME. An aviation chart, a compass and the old Mark One Eyeball sometimes is all one has to keep himself from getting lost.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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To get back onto the Amtrak track: Back in the mid-90s a Zephyr train chief told me that Amtrak was experimenting with putting GPS bugs in the locomotives to see if the railroad could keep tabs on exactly where its trains were at all times. Anyone know what happened to this idea? It would help make ETA reports a little more accurate, if nothing else.
rresor Member # 128
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Henry:
The combination of GPS and a digital data link can do a lot more than just provide better position updates. In the 1980s Burlington Northern began testing the "Advanced Railroad Electronics System" (ARES) on their Iron Range operation. Each locomotive was equipped with GPS, an on-board computer, and two display screens for the engineer. Movement authorities were transmitted to each train digitally, and appeared as color codes on the engineer's screen, along with a plan and profile view of the railroad that scrolled with the train's movement, showing the locations of the head and rear of the train, grade crossings, signals, bridges, etc. Movement authorities were enforced by the on-board computer, which generated an alarm and "counted down" to a penalty brake application if the engineer did not act to stop the train.
It all worked quite well...and the railroad decided to walk away from a system-wide deployment. To this day, such systems (now known as "Positive Train Control") remain in test mode only.
I've done a considerable amount of work on the economic benefits of such systems. Contact me off-line if you like and I'll give you pointers to some of the reports.
George Harris Member # 2077
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rreson: Give me an email if you would. I would be much interested. Mine is ghharris44 <at> yahoo.com
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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Mine is hkisor (at) y a h o o dot c o m
Geoff M Member # 153
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Did the ARES system really work so well? The usual problems with GPS are resolution, tall buildings, electrified lines, and tunnels. Originally the fundamental problem in the UK was simply that the resolution from the GPS satellites wasn't good enough to determine safely which of two parallel tracks a train was on, though the resolution is far better now, especially once Galileo goes online. Tunnels and other obstacles could be gotten around by having pseudo-satellites on the ground.
Have a read about ERTMS if you want a laugh. Billions spent on a European committee (those two words alone strike fear into most people) that can't decide whether the colour scheme should be Sunset Yellow or Quinoline Yellow - let alone the technical interoperability of the equipment.
The French, Belgians, and Dutch have some fairly large trials; the UK government - in a rare moment of sanity - preferred not to bother until the EU forced us to. It is now being trialled on a very minor branch line.
Personally I prefer lamps on poles. High maintenance but right now the development is costing billions which we're baulking at.
Geoff M.
DesertSpirit Member # 3848
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I use a garmin 60csx for geocaching. I can download all sorts of POI's for traveling as well. It saves on paper because in the past I would have to print everything out and take it with me. Now all I have to do is download the geocache info directly to the unit and off I go.
Amtrak207 Member # 1307
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Henry, next time you have the opportunity to look at the roof of an Amtrak P42, look just to the fireman's side of the horn. There you will see a white dome. Guess what that is- another little bump to model! As is the case with Amtrak and railroads in general, who knows if they still work, but they're there. CNOC might be able to use it, but I'm not sure.
I think all the ExpressTrash reefers had domes too. Track how your shipment is being delayed in real time!
Actually, this brings back some memories. I fondly recall zipping down the NEC in 1997. One of my group's chaperones was sitting on the left side of the train with a GPS and my friend and I were on the right side with our watches and calculators, clocking mileposts. We both came to the same conclusion- 125.
As for nav systems in cars, if people actually took ten or fifteen minutes before they left to figure out where they are going, they could make their trips a little safer than blindly trusting a piece of machinery which, evidently, distracts people from driving. I love seeing all the super-annoying neon blue screens on people's dashboards as they zip past me on the Thruway. What's the nav system going to tell you? You're eastbound on I90 at milepost 177. Wowweeee, I could *never* have told you that! They put up multiple humungous breakaway-base billboards in living color telling you in advance of where your exit is, you know. I take it as a compliment when I get to sit in the passenger's seat and navigate in a car. Onboard a train, well, I have taken the Water Level Route enough times to know exactly where I am for a hundred-plus-mile stretch, and the rest I can look for about two minutes and figure it out. People look at you funny when you turn around as they debate where they are and argue about how long it's going to be until they reach their destinations and say something like, "we're just east of Herkimer, so your stop in Utica will be in about eleven minutes." That's a combination of my scanner, certain railroad publications, knowing the route from driving/riding/cycling all over it, and sheer experience.
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