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I don't see how Amtrak is going to compete for passenger rail in China. Rather a different matter to Amtrak, I think, unless China's railways are thinking of competing with Amtrak on US soil.
The CNN article claims that the train ran at an average speed of 218 mph between Wuhan and Canton (not Ohio; Guangdong). Sounds absurd, especially compared to the average speeds of most high-speed rail. (Assuming it were true, though, then that could mean a non-stop rail trip between New York and Chicago in 3 hours 40 minutes, and even a transcontinental rail trip in about 12 hours 45 minutes. Ambitious?)
$24.9 million per mile for infrastructure sounds a bit on the cheap side, too; of course, the Chinese government is not confirming their cost claims.
RRCHINA Member # 1514
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I don't believe they have any EPA and other permitting, nor any $50 per hour workers. My guess is they can build at about 25% of our costs, with the permiting eliminated.
And any NIMBY's or BANANA's would be out of the question in China.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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For the benefit of those uninformed (as was I until a few moments ago):
BANANA - Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything
Likewise, I wonder to what extent our Chinese "friends" need be concerned with acronyms such as EIS - Environmental Impact Statement.
George Harris Member # 2077
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I can tell you that there is no such thing as any real environmental regulation nor any such thing as any "off limits" territory in China. Also, while I do not know real labor costs in China, I know that there are other countries in that part of the world where skilled labor can be had for $500 (US) a month for 60 hour work weeks. I would suspect that it would be less, possibly considerably less, in China.
Henry Kisor Member # 4776
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"Wook weeks," George? Or wok weeks? :-)
Dakguy201 Member # 10360
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It was reported a recent run of this train was delayed for 2 1/2 hours by a fire alarm which turned out to be in the john. They failed to catch the offending smoker.
I wonder what the penalty would have been had they caught him -- there has to be considerable loss of face involved in the train not being on schedule.
royaltrain Member # 622
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quote:Originally posted by Dakguy201: It was reported a recent run of this train was delayed for 2 1/2 hours by a fire alarm which turned out to be in the john. They failed to catch the offending smoker.
I wonder what the penalty would have been had they caught him -- there has to be considerable loss of face involved in the train not being on schedule.
A firing squad perhaps?
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: "Wook weeks," George? Or wok weeks? :-)
oops: I meant 60 hour WORK weeks.
irishchieftain Member # 1473
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Had a look at the corresponding Wikipedia article...they have the route shorter by about 111 miles, and the average speed for the nonstops is 194 mph. (That drops the NYP-CHI trip down to 4:04 on a presumed HSR alignment that runs parallel to I-80.)
As for China's terrain, it seems that a lot of it is still quite earthquake-prone. Did they build this line to Japanese standards (another land that also has to field bad quakes)? Something tells me that the answer might be in the negative.
The Chinese deserve to be recognized for a truly amazing performance here. Impressive average speed by any calculation. Note the large number of tunnels and bridges would accommodate a very straight alignment.
Some people will point to the high cost and use that to question the economics of the project. Yes, these trains are a luxury, along with such as jet air travel. However, one could argue the benefits compare favorably with the costs. 20 trains a day will carry a lot of passengers. I doubt if ticket prices are out of line with what the public is willing to pay. A lot of American families wouldn't think twice about spending 2/3 of a month's income on vacation travel.
I also have few doubts about the structural standards of the new railroad. After all it is meant to be a show of national pride.
irishchieftain Member # 1473
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quote:The Chinese deserve to be recognized for a truly amazing performance here
At what human cost, I wonder? Sorry, but this regime deserves no recognition whatsoever.
4021North Member # 4081
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No recognition whatsoever? The Communist Party, or the Chinese National Railways, had nothing to do with it?
George Harris Member # 2077
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Dictatorships with the power to coerce large numbers of people and ignore all costs can pull of astounding feats.
Environmental protection: What's that?
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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quote:Originally posted by irishchieftain:
quote:The Chinese deserve to be recognized for a truly amazing performance here
At what human cost, I wonder? Sorry, but this regime deserves no recognition whatsoever.
The irony here is that statistically speaking you probably eat Chinese food on occasion and you probably have lots of cheap Chinese-made products around the house - yet feel righteous enough to condemn the entire regime that provides you with your comforts. Can't have your cake and eat it I'm afraid.
No, I don't agree with everything they do but cannot logically dislike everything about them. The US government has serious human rights issues of its own, though of course that's ok as it's America. For fairness the UK isn't blameless either.
Finally, don't forget that Siemens, Kawasaki, and numerous foreign subcontractors were used on the project, not just Chinese labour and engineering.
irishchieftain Member # 1473
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quote:The irony here is that statistically speaking you probably eat Chinese food on occasion and you probably have lots of cheap Chinese-made products around the house - yet feel righteous enough to condemn the entire regime that provides you with your comforts. Can't have your cake and eat it I'm afraid
No, there's no irony there. "Chinese food" was not invented by the "People's Republic", and I avoid buying anything made by that regime as stringently as I can.
And as far as that goes, I reserve the right to the high ground to condemn the (former) Irish Republic for its early recognition of the Soviet Union too.
quote:No, I don't agree with everything they do but cannot logically dislike everything about them. The US government has serious human rights issues of its own, though of course that's ok as it's America. For fairness the UK isn't blameless either
No, there's no comparison at all.
I've said my piece; I won't turn this into a political forum.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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quote:Originally posted by irishchieftain: No, there's no irony there. "Chinese food" was not invented by the "People's Republic", and I avoid buying anything made by that regime as stringently as I can.
Somehow I think you'll struggle to justify either of these statements. The former goes without saying; the latter because simply because final assembly in the USA doesn't mean a thing in terms of component parts or raw materials. Some time ago somebody said they only flew Boeing because they were American-made. What they didn't realise was that Everett was only the place of final assembly and components or raw materials for those components came from all over the world - including China. The same applies for a surprising number of products including, most likely, Amtrak's fleet.
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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And did all you rail fans see that China overtook the United States as the top country in car buying? What you didn't think prosperity was going to keep them riding bicycles? And you all saw the purchases of Car Companys? Gonna need a lot of highway projects for all those Hummers. Perhaps they are their repeating America's railroading history perhaps these trains will be their Streamliners.
notelvis Member # 3071
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quote:Originally posted by royaltrain:
quote:Originally posted by Dakguy201: It was reported a recent run of this train was delayed for 2 1/2 hours by a fire alarm which turned out to be in the john. They failed to catch the offending smoker.
I wonder what the penalty would have been had they caught him -- there has to be considerable loss of face involved in the train not being on schedule.
A firing squad perhaps?
Do you think they would have offered him a last cigarette first? That would be ironic.
Railroad Bob Member # 3508
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Oh well- guess I'll jump in. I agree with the Chieftain that the PRC didn't invent Chinese food; that cuisine (which is rather different in the Chinese mainland than what we get here in the USA, for the most part) has evolved from dust, a cup of rice, a few vegetables and some meat for 5000 years or so. I lived in the PRC (Shanghai) for a short stretch in 1996 and have been there on 5 other occasions; each time going by rail to different parts of the giant country. It certainly can't be brushed off as "all good or all bad." Of course, the answer lies somewhere in between...
Like the Chieftain, not wanting to turn the thread into a political firestorm, I do have to say I admire the national rail system over there. The volume of PASSENGER trains is simply breathtaking; I think it was George H. who pointed out only India has more passenger service. I've seen the Shanghai MagLev, I've watched the gorgeous green and yellow train for Lhasa, Tibet pull out of the Xian station full of locals and international tourists. Even on secondary mains- psgr. trains stream almost constantly all night long, serving even the smallest villages with old-style "mixed" trains- a local freight with a single passenger car in the middle! Those disappeared in the USA , what - 60-70 years ago?
No easy answers- but I cannot condemn the whole state, since I have a genuine affection for the Chinese people. But not so much for the regime in Beijing. Remember, the Chinese have revolutions every so often; things could conceivably change over there some day. It's certainly worth a trip; to have a look under the "veil." Sorry for the long post- hope it helped a little. I'm done- Bob
Edited to say: a lot of the heart of the Chinese national rail system was fully in place before October 1, 1949-- many of the amazing engineering feats were accomplished by foreign RR engineering departments, who of course used the cheap local labor to drill out the tunnels, etc. Before the Communists came along...
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