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The Trains Magazine Newswire is reporting that Talgo has filed suit against the State of Wisconsin for Breach of Contract.
In a quick read of the article, it appears that the best possible outcome for Talgo would be if that company is allowed to retain the title for the two trainsets and presumably find a buyer elsewhere.
Here is a link to the article accesible only to those who are print subscribers to Trains Magazine.
All told, Wash and Oregon are "full up"; North Carolina prefers keep their rolling museum patched up. Where else, reasonably and practicably, could they be used (my personal reaction of "who'd want 'em" should be ignored)?
What's left: "send 'em back where they came from", for if they remained titled to Wisconsin, they will become "Scotty's fodder' as symbols of waste that he "crusading" against. The fire will only be flamed should there be a Romney administration at hand.
notelvis Member # 3071
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Perhaps assignment to the Chicago-Quincy service Mr. Norman? We could check in with you to see how those Talgos look gliding past the 18 milepost.
(I am teasing....... honest...)
I'm thinking that the Pacific Northwest is most likely. They would be amongst their kin and long-range ambition there calls for increased frequency.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Perhaps assignment to the Chicago-Quincy service Mr. Norman? We could check in with you to see how those Talgos look gliding past the 18 milepost.
(I am teasing....... honest...)
I'm thinking that the Pacific Northwest is most likely. They would be amongst their kin and long-range ambition there calls for increased frequency.
Agreed - devilishly with the first bit as well as the second! Airlines make savings by having as few types of aircraft in their fleet - low cost carriers typically only have one type (eg B737 or A320, ignoring subvariants).
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Mr. Presley, you live down there. Wouldn't you think that pendular equipment such as these Talgos would generate real schedule reductions over the existing Raleigh Charlotte route and any others that could reasonably be considered, e.g. out your way or down to Wilmington?
Next; who knows how to "push the right buttons" in Raleigh?
Finally, considerably more detail is reported regarding the matter in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel:
In April, Talgo invoiced the state $4.6 million for ongoing work on the trains. It didn't get paid as the two differed over who would pay for testing the trains, and in July Talgo sent the state a letter saying it was in default and demanding that the state make payment within 30 days.
The two sides held a mediation session last week but reached no agreement. On Thursday, the firm filed a notice with the state saying it was terminating its contract with the state and on Friday filed a lawsuit in Dane County Circuit Court asking Judge Juan Colas to declare Talgo had the right to terminate the contract and properly did so.
If it prevails, Talgo would get to keep the trains and the money the state has paid to it. The firm claims it is owed another $10 million on top of what it has already been paid, attorney Lester Pines said. If the firm is able to keep the trains, it will sell them to another state, he said.
Talgo's chief executive officer, Antonio Perez, said in a statement that Wisconsin has "used every conceivable excuse, whether fair or not and whether lawful or not, to ensure that Talgo did not receive what it bargained for, including by refusing to pay for the trains that Talgo completed."
notelvis Member # 3071
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Mr. Norman, I do believe that the Talgos would be very popular with riders in North Carolina.... and the profile of the former Southern mainline between Raleigh and Greensboro would lend itself nicely to the Talgo's tilting technology. This is a mostly single track line with numerous curves and deceptively steep hill and dale grades. Talgos could perhaps shave up to ten minutes off the Raleigh-Charlotte running time.
However, I don't believe that the NCDOT will be tempted by a pair of Talgos even at firesale prices. The care and feeding of these orphans would be costlier and quickly offset any savings gained in the Talgo 'going out of (Wisconsin) business' sale.
I believe the direction of the wind should North Carolina reach the point of seeking new rail passengr equipment would be as an 'add-on' for midwest bi-levels.
Of course the rolling museum fleet of former Kansas City Southern coaches from the 1960's is well-maintained and increasingly popular with riders. They've been renovated twice since coming to North Carolina and may even have another overhaul left in them before they are through!
pporro Member # 31539
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If they are so popular and needed, it should be easy to find a buyer for them?
The lawsuit, however, centers on the trains for the Milwaukee-Chicago line and is not related to the abandoned Milwaukee-Madison line.
How would this trainset have blended into the Hiawatha schedule and if we need more trains for Milwaukee / Chicago why doesn't Amtrak run more now? Equipment shortage?
I hear that the late afternoon train from Chicago is packed and standing room only. While personally riding the 4PM train, it was pick a seat, any seat, almost empty?
There's something wrong when people say we needed more trains, and this was part of the answer. (The Talgo Set) Yet Amtrak has equipment and has packed cars a couple of trains on the schedule and doesn't add cars or run another train already?
Something wrong here with the logic.
You'll note, nothing from me about politics, name calling, hate or "free money" from the Feds., just asking if we need the train, why isn't one already running in that slot?
notelvis Member # 3071
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pporro -
The Talgo trains are popular and ridership is growing on the one corridor - the Pacific Northwest - where they are in use.
Part of the issue is that these trains employ unique technology and require new or significantly upfitted facilities to maintain and service them. Because of this, it makes sense for these two trainsets to go to the Pacific Northwest where the infrastructure for keeping them on the road has already been established.
In coming back to Wisconsin, the issues center around the state not completing payment for these trains which were ordered during the previous state administration and not making good on it's agreement to provide a facility in which these trains could be maintained.
Initially the idea was that these two trains would be the first of many which would ultimately replace the ageing Amtrak equipment in use on the existing Hiawatha's, extend Hiawatha service on to Madison and ulimately to the Twin Cities.
Having ridden both the Pacific Northwest Talgos and the existing Hiawathas, I have no doubt that had service been extended to Madison and frequency increased between Chicago and Milwaukee using these newer and more attractive trains that ridership would have increased significantly..... particularly with there being a train station adjacent to the Milwaukee airport now.
What Amtrak currently runs in Hiawatha service is pretty much determined by what Wisconsin does (or does not) fund rather than what might be best market practice.
Bottom-line, I am disappointed by how things played out in Wisconsin. In my experience with the competitive drum and bugle corps activity (including four seasons working with the Madison Scouts), I've known many people who are natives of the Madison area or who have moved there to work and/or study. I feel like clean, attractive passenger trains to the Milwaukee Airport and on to Chicago would have been hugely popular with the citizenry of Madison. You know - educated, left-leaning, green-minded. This is a place where higher speed rail, if done correctly, would have really taken off.
Short of there being demand, and a public will, to establish some East-West services in the PacNW (Spokane-Seattle coming to mind), I really see no alternative than to "send 'em back where they came from".
Mr. Presley has discounted any reason why his home state of North Carolina would be "interested" even if they have a strong pro-rail base - and a kitty to fund it. There have been suggestions that Talgo equipment operating Harrisburg-Pittsburgh could shave almost an hour off the existing schedule and make that run in 4h 30min. But that would be fraught with all the same issues of establishing an outside contractor maintenance facility for two trains AND I would dare say passenger resistance to the necessary "change at Harrisburg". While of course only Amtrak knows, I'd dare say that of the existing passengers on 42-43, Pennsvlvanian, more passengers than not are traveling through Harrisburg.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The Raleigh Greensboro Charlotte is curvey, but not enough that the tilting is likely to make more than the 10 minutes that Mr. Presley has postulated. The nuisance of dealing with the odd equipment would not be worth it. The KCS coaches are really nice, so there is not much to be gained there.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Hey RENFE; don't mean to make light of a serious fatal incident, but I know where you can get 28 replacement cars on the cheap.
MADRID — A passenger train derailed on a high-speed stretch of track in northwestern Spain on Wednesday night, killing at least 35 people and leaving dozens injured in the country's worst rail accident in decades, officials said.
Officials gave different death tolls in the immediate aftermath of the accident. Alberto Nunez Feijoo, president of the region of Galicia, said at least 35 people aboard the train were killed.
George Harris Member # 2077
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Deaths from the Spanish accident is now (as of 10:00PM PST) given as 77.
Pictures of the aftermath are downright scary. Looking at how mangled some of these cars are just from banging against each other makes the "excessive" FRA crashworthiness requirements look a lot more reasonable.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Reports suggest the train was travelling at 118mph instead of 50mph - that's 2.36 times the permitted speed. The front vehicle stopped in around 300ft from that speed. Very rough calculations suggest 2.3 million pounds of force assuming a uniform deceleration which it most likely wasn't. The FRA standards require 1 million in simple terms (there are figures above and below for different elements). Therefore I doubt building to FRA standards would have helped - not to mention doing so would add weight, which increases force, which potentially leads to more casualties.
Even if you somehow build the cars to survive an impact like that, you then have to consider the secondary impact (body against vehicle) and tertiary impact (organs within body).
Frankly I doubt there is any easy way of protecting from the effects of such a crash except by preventing it happening in the first place. The train had just travelled on at least 10 miles of virtually straight track before this sharp 90 degree left bend - which it had nearly traversed completely - which is then followed by a 180 degree right turn into the station.
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Watching that video, it looks like the second car jumped the tracks, pulling the engine and other cars with it. The engineer is toast.
notelvis Member # 3071
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This footage is stunning and I agree with Mike S. Looks like the 2nd car went airborne pulling the cars behind it along and finally jerking the engine with them.
I've not been able to bring myself to look at the still photos of the aftermath.
HopefulRailUser Member # 4513
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The driver has survived with non-life threatening injuries. So he is toast for many reasons.
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