But I think the tracks the Empire Builder will use may be a bit rusty.
notelvis Member # 3071
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These are wonderful images and the restoration of SPUD is a project that has held my interest. With my wife and I both having old friends predating our marriage in the Twin Cities, I am hopeful that I will have the opportunity at some point to use SPUD as it was originally intended.
Those tracks that the Empire Builder may use haven't seen their first train yet! They are a new installation as part of this project.
Problem is that they are not connected to anything yet. Apparantly no agreement has been reached with CP to install the switches at either end of SPUD to enter and diverge the 'high iron'. I know little of the details but they likely involve who will bear the cost and perhaps associated liability. That CP is undergoing the initial stages of corporate restructuring no doubt complicates matters.
Still - the restoration at SPUD appears to have been first rate and I think the local enthusiasm and political support to 'get a deal done' eventually is in place here.
What I wonder is whether the Empire Builder will continue stopping at Midway Station for servicing as that's where the infrastructure to do this currently exists. Another matter to consider is that Midway is where storage for private rail cars (and switching them to/from the Empire Builder) is located. Not sure such is or will be available at SPUD.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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From what I've read, private car storage will remain at Midway.
I am not even sure what route the Builder will take through St. Paul. The BNSF main is only about 800 ft east of the Amtrak SPUD platform, and they have built a track that curves north from the platform (BNSF to Seattle). This would mean bypassing Midway, but still passing within a half mile north of it.
I plan to go to the SPUD Grand Opening Saturday. Amtrak and other involved parties will be represented there, and I will report on what I find out.
Most of the rail is in place, and stations are finished for Light Rail between St. Paul and Minneapolis. Why it will not open until 2014 I do not know.
notelvis Member # 3071
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TwinStar - Is the line from the station to the BNSF route joined with BNSF?
Might be a case where Amtrak shifts to the BNSF at SPUD rather than on the other side of Midway going forward.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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David, right now the Amtrak rails are dead end in both directions out of SPUD. The closest parallel track is actually UP (former Rock Island) from Des Moines. It crosses the Mississippi just west of SPUD, crosses both CP tracks at grade, and then forms a wye with the BNSF main and CP to Milwaukee. So three railroads may be involved. Figure 5-1 on this document might help.
What confuses me is that the existing new Amtrak eastbound rails from SPUD turn northward alongside UP to the westbound BNSF main, with nothing connecting to CP toward Chicago. This might indicate backing into SPUD like NP and BN used to do, giving Amtrak high speed track right out of SPUD to Fargo. But most rumors indicate Amtrak will continue to run through Midway, using 10 mph track and hand thrown switches as they do now.
I hope to find out more Saturday. If I wear my tin foil hat, pocket protector, and railroad bandana they will know I mean business.
palmland Member # 4344
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How about Amtrak just uses the CB&Q into Chicago. The Morning Zephyr did it in 6'45". Today's EB takes 8'15". Sorry about that Milwaukee.
Seriously though it's great that another classic station is restored and used for its original purpose. I hope the crews won't continue to use Midway for on duty point and the train still stops there for crew change. This seems like a great opportunity to speed things up a bit and I'll be interested to hear what TSR finds out.
sojourner Member # 3134
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I have heard that Jefferson Lines will begin going out of SPUD in January. They will still stop in Minneapolis too, of course.
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I've since looked at the area with Google Earth.... the inages are 10-11 months old but I can see how the access seems to be going toward that leg of the wye on the east side rather than directly into the CP route which the train currently uses.
It seems like they are intending backing out eastbound and backing in westbound BUT that would bypass Midway.
Servicing the EB at SPUD is probably doable as the diesel fuel comes in trucks anyway...... dealing with private cars is about to get more expensive if they must deadhead to/from Midway Station.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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As I study all the pages of the document I linked to earlier, it really indicates the current route through Midway is to be used. The red lines on all map phases (5-1 to 5-4) are Amtrak. It shows connections at each end to the current Amtrak route, merging with the single UP freight track closest to SPUD, which connects also to CP in both directions.
Our new mystery track curving to the northeast remains dead end until Phase 4 Rush Line Commuter Rail. Evidently there will be switches added where new unused track has already been laid (Do they do things that way?).
There is so little traffic on the Amtrak route through St. Paul, that Minnesota Commercial Railway could easily shuttle private cars to SPUD from Midway. MN Commercial is headquartered at Midway and specializes in short runs through the Twin Cities, complete with black smoke and easily overtaken by bicycles. They also have the hand thrown switches Amtrak uses west of Midway.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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A truly fine compliment to your Private Varnish.
RRRICH Member # 1418
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Twin Star -- I don't quite understand your map. I assume the square located above "Robert Street" is the location of SPUD? Is the existing Midway station somewhere around the "4's" on the left side of the map?
Looks like all the E-bd EB will have to do is to back up somewhere to the right (east?) of "16" to get to SPUD, right?
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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I'm confused by all this backing up. I've attached a scan from Steam Powered Video's Railroad Atlas of North America - hopefully keeping within the copyright laws by only attaching a small, attributed sample. Highlighted in red are the existing and new stations. In blue is the route that the map says Amtrak follows. With the appropriate crossovers in place there would be no need for a backup move.
Now I re-read through the comments above, the suggestion seems to be that Amtrak would no longer use the route via Murray Hill and instead go via either Dale St or Como, with the backup in the Division St / Hoffman Ave / SPUD triangle.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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That is an excellent map you have prepared, Mr. Mayo, as it clearly shows how the existing Amtrak facility is accessed by the Builder without any backup moves and is interchanged from the MILW to the GN by means of the Minnesota Transfer. It also shows how the Builder runs through the SPUD and has done so without stopping ever since A-Day.
The only thing of possible interest would be the location of the Stone Arch Bridge and the now razed GN station, but that is to the West of the map's area.. Of interest, the MILW accessed their stub end station (the head house now a Marriott Renaissance property) by means of the bridge to the West of Merriam Park and the MT interchange.
Regretably for the three roads, the Ford Motor assembly plant at Fordson closed last year. The MILW switched the plant, under a Reciprocal Switch tariff, for all roads and of course enjoyed some line hauls. Twin Star Jerry knows the impact on jobs that closure caused.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Rich, you may be looking at page 1 of the document and I was primarily referring to pages 6-9. The numbers you see on page 1 are observed daily train movements for each route segment. Midway is indeed out beyond the "4", and can be seen easily on Geoff's excellent map. As GBN points out, the "4" on the "CP to Ford" route are no more.
I just talked to several people from Amtrak at the Grand Opening. There will be NO backup moves. The Builder will follow the current route through Midway. Three railroads are involved in the connections that need to be made before Amtrak can use SPUD. None of the work ("cutting switches" they called it) has started. Best estimate now is Sep-Dec of 2013 for Amtrak to move. It appears all the other work at SPUD for Amtrak is complete, including ample seating and the First Class lounge.
Since Amtrak is at the far end of the building, there will be a lot of walking. Passenger waiting (right over the platform), First Class lounge, and tickets/baggage are all located considerable distance from each other. Escalator (up), elevator, and stairs to the platform are similar to Kansas City but all indoors until the platform. There are beautiful views of the big bend in the Mississippi from the Amtrak end.
Since I recently caught the Starlight in Sacramento, I now am convinced Amtrak is trying to improve the physical fitness of the rail traveling public by creating long walks with luggage.
As sojourner notes, Jefferson Bus starts using SPUD Jan 14. There is currently no St. Paul intercity bus station (STP is not a stop for the increasingly lean grey dog). Jefferson will continue to use Amtrak Midway for some runs until Amtrak moves, then vacate Midway. There are no use plans for Midway after Amtrak leaves. I would suggest it could house a museum of ugly Amshacks.
There will be long term parking at SPUD, but it will not be free like Midway. Parking and drop-off are underground in the HUGE area under the former train platform where parking traditionally was. It is now brightly remodeled and very unlike what was apparently Dracula's lair for the last 40 years. Most of the original SPUD had a lot of underground passageways for auto's, as befits a town that was a favorite safe haven for gangsters.
It is a beautiful building, accurately restored. The Grand Opening employed dozens of actors dressed in period costumes enacting early 20th century depot scenes amongst the crowd. Roughly 3 square blocks, the building was packed solid with people the entire day.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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For those that really want to delve into the needed track work to connect SPUD's currently unconnected Amtrak rails, Geoff's excellent map can be used as a starting point.
The UP(CGW) line approaching SPUD from the south crosses over the two CP tracks immediately after crossing the river, and is the closest (northernmost) of the 3 tracks running by SPUD. It has a connection to CP west only. Running east, it forms a wye with BNSF but does not connect to CP east (which is at slightly higher elevation).
At the west only a switch would be needed, since the close UP track connects to the westbound CP tracks.
At the east, a crossover of the north veering UP wye to the south veering track might do. But that would put Amtrak onto the BNSF mainline in a congested area until it could switch back to CP further east. A crossover of UP to CP east would require gaining some elevation because the CP is higher, probably to form a flood wall. In 1965, the flooding Mississippi was just about up to the highest track.
(BTW, on Geoff's map: if you see St. Anthony in the northwest corner, I live 2 blocks south of there. With a couple of pedestrian bridges over the rails, I live in foamer heaven.)
RRRICH Member # 1418
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Geoff -- thanks so much for the excellent map!! I will now be able to accurately update my maps when the time comes. And thanks for the explanation, Twin Star!!
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Thanks for the "thanks" for the map. Please note I simply scanned the book and highlighted the route (by following the AMTK labels). It is an excellent series - I think I have the whole series now. Not cheap but it's helped me understand the country a lot better.
Looks like Amazon know some sellers; however I can't get the link to work. Search for "Comprehensive Railroad Atlas of North America: Dakotas & Minnesota"
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So when will AMTRAK start using SPUD again?
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Late 2013, Rich. Track and platform is all complete. But connections to current Amtrak route, only yards away, involves negotiations with CN, UP and BNSF. Latest estimate is next December. The original time was supposed to be about now.
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