posted
Richard, I think back to 1965 when I rode The Canadian in those same cars, over the scenery superior CP, had "Mad Men" fare in the Diner, i.e. Steaks, Lamb Chops, Prime Rib, and traveled in a Roomette - all for about CDN$65 Vancouver to Winnipeg.
Try that for even an inflation adjusted amount today.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
$65 in 1965, Mr. Norman? That sounds really cheap. My inflation calculator says $65 back then would = around $480, today.
I travelled the old Canadian back in the 1970s along the CP route, from Vancouver to Banff, also with a roomette. Great food, but I can't remember the cost. I dug up a little more information on the Prestige class sleepers, and they may not be available until Aug. although booking may start in May. The one-way cost (this may not be accurate) might be something like $3200 peak of season and $2200 off season.
Sounds nice. Separate bathroom, mini-bar, flat screen TV. I hope Wi-Fi will be available in the sleepers.
I have never ridden the VIA train east of Jasper or Banff, so don't know about CN vs. CP for the best scenery. I think, however, it would be hard to beat the CN route from Kamloops to Jasper for splendid scenery.
Richard
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Along the Fraser River is a "six of one, half a dozen the other" situation. Over the Rockies, simply no comparison.
Obviously to view from either route, Canadien or Rocky Mountaineer, today parts with a mite bit more wampum - call it heap big wampum.
kenchappell Member # 2245
posted
Totally agree with GBN, the "northern" route from Kamloops to Jasper whilst very scenic pales into almost insignificance compared to the "southern" route through Banff to Calgary.
I was lucky enough to do that route twice in the 1980's - the views at Revelstoke station at 5am on a crisp sunny May morning are burnt into my memory!
I will be travelling Toronto to Vancouver on the Canadian in May - sleeper plus, not prestige !!
David Member # 3
posted
Firstly, an update of my posting of the 13th. A week ago VIA blocked ticket sales of the Toronto-Winnipeg portion of the route until May. Yesterday VIA confirmed that trains east of Winnipeg are cancelled until the 14th of April, inclusive. VIA is hoping to restore service mid-April but this has not been confirmed. Passengers are on their own to make arrangements for east of Winnipeg. Passengers are offered full refunds if they wish to cancel the trip, partial refunds if they can make their own way Toronto-Winnipeg or v.v. and there is the option of re-booking to a future date at the original fare, even if booked on a half-price off-peak sale. That is what I have done.
Regarding the Prestige sleepers, for approximately the past two months every third train has had the rebuilt Park car with one Prestige room and also an "accessible cabin". No Canadian has departed Toronto since the 4th of March nor arrived in Toronto since the 7th of March. A special "pre-launch" rate was offered. It is still available between Winnipeg and Vancouver on all trains (twice a week at this time of year) at a cost of $3280 plus tax for one or two passengers.
The regular Prestige service is to start in May on all trains (three times a week) with at least one Château sleeper which contains just six Prestige cabins plus the Park car. The fare Toronto-Vancouver is $6544 plus tax. The tax is less for departures from Vancouver.
Fares between Toronto and Vancouver are $6544 plus tax, for a total of $7394 westbound and $6871 eastbound. That is for one or two people. From conversations I had with VIA agents, there are no discounts for off-peak travel, seniors, advance-purchase, and no discount coupons can be used. I must wonder how many passengers will pay those fares in January!
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
Thanks for the information, David. Yipes! I can't believe $7394. I did call VIA and they confirmed that price. It is for a one-way trip between Vancouver and Toronto, so the price is for 4 nights and 5 days on the train.
Too bad the price couldn't be based on distance traveled if you are going just from Vancouver to Lake Louise or Banff, or the reverse. I guess you are paying for the cabin so it is $7394 is for either one or two people, according to the fellow on the other end of the phone.
Well, too expensive for my pocketbook. It makes the Rocky Mountaineer gold leaf service seem much cheaper.
Richard
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
I can only hope that at CD$7394 plus apparently quoted separately taxes (even if that is in US 7394 79 cent pieces), VIA can show their MP Micas up there they are making Loonie on this service.
Apparently, the Dome Obs is now off limits to regular sleeper passengers?
Oh well, at least "I did it" back in 1965 when the rate Vancouver to Winnipeg was about US$65 in a Roomette. On that trip, it was the CN Panorama WW from Saskatoon (Winnipeg intended but GN Winnipeg Limited was "a tad' late so time for a catch up flght on a Trans Canada Vickers Viscount - the best flightseeing aircraft of all time).
Sorry about ruffling some North of the 49th feathers around here, but why you all choose to support this Government Sponsored Enterprise in its existing form, simply escapes me. With surely a subsidy per passenger boarded far in excess of Amtrak's, that in the case of The Canadien only provides "the Point A to B'ers" during the time they need the service the most, as in the Winter, twice a week, one of your Micas up there is going to say "enough".
Oh but finally and taking a bit of parody from Shakespeare's Mark Antony "oh but they have such a great on-board service", i.e. in the same sense "For Brutus is an honourable man".
David Member # 3
posted
quote:Originally posted by yukon11: ...
Too bad the price couldn't be based on distance traveled if you are going just from Vancouver to Lake Louise or Banff, or the reverse. I guess you are paying for the cabin so it is $7394 is for either one or two people, according to the fellow on the other end of the phone.
...
Richard
The Canadian does not run on the CPR route through Banff and Lake Louise, but on the CN through Jasper.
Some shorter segments are available. The fare between Toronto and Winnipeg is $3632. Winnipeg - Vancouver is $4432. Toronto-Jasper is $4898. Sales tax is 13% on trips originating in Ontario and 5% on trips from the western provinces. Vancouver - Jasper is not being sold as a segment. Although it shows on the booking system (Reservia) it is marked sold out on all dates. It is rumoured that VIA doesn't want to upset the Rocky Mountaineer owners who are very well connected politically.
David Member # 3
posted
quote:Originally posted by David:
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: ...
Apparently, the Dome Obs is now off limits to regular sleeper passengers?
...
That rumour has been going around for some time. The Park car is open to all sleeper passengers. In the peak travel season (May through October) a Skyline dome car is operated ahead of each of the dining cars to give extra dome and lounge space. There is also a full-length dome car (ex-BCR) between Vancouver and Jasper. There will be the occasional wine-tasting session for Prestige passengers. I'm not sure how they will host that in the Park car. Perhaps the regular sleeper passengers will be asked to leave the lounge or the dome for a short while. Unless someone posts this information sooner, I should know how this is done in two months. I should be on the eastbound Canadian right now, but rather than being dumped in Winnipeg to fend for myself I have postponed my trip until early June.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
Sorry, I had a brain lapse. I was thinking of the old Canadian CP route through Lake Louise, Banff, and Calgary.
Considering the popularity of the Jasper area, Icefields Parkway, etc, I would think they would have a separate package and fare between Vancouver and Jasper for the Prestige cabin. Possibly with time.
I called VIA, again, and ask about reduced fares for shorter segments of the Toronto-Vancouver or Vancouver-Toronto run.
They found some information that says you can, indeed, get a reduced fare for just Vancouver to Jasper or the reverse. The quote was around $3700-3800 for one-way, for both 1 or 2 people in the Prestige cabin.
However, they also said that you need to book well in advance. Nine or ten months, in advance, might be needed to assure reservations. Apparently, the Prestige class is proving to be very popular.
Still a little high. Well, maybe they can eventually offer a prestige cabin on the Empire Builder or Zephyr. I think, however, they would need a fine, gourmet-type diner to be resonant with that class of service.
Richard
DonNadeau Member # 61606
posted
Such an abject shame the Canadian was switched to CN.
Was privileged to travel its CP route twice - Ottawa to Vancouver via Banff and Vancouver to Winnipeg via Banff.
The two seminal Canadian history books are the "National Dream" and "The Last Spike" both by Pierre Berton. I urge you to read these fascinating accounts of the CP.
Canadian Pacific was all in for a superb passenger experience from day one.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
posted
quote:Originally posted by DonNadeau: Such an abject shame the Canadian was switched to CN.
Sorry....no shame here at all. This is VIA’s Canadian. Its been on the CN route for 25 years now and certainly doesn’t need to play second fiddle to a former CP train of the same name.
This is a train I’ve been on several time and millions of other have too. It operates with equipment that has been meticulously rebuilt and offers a level of service that’s second to none: Sleeper Plus (Touring Class...formerly Silver & Blue) and now Prestige Class.
The CN Jasper route is very scenic in its own right. If you want to experience the old CP route via Banff, Lake Louise and the Spiral Tunnels.....No Problem......just book a trip on the Rocky Mountaineer!
DonNadeau Member # 61606
posted
ghCBNS,
I am not criticizing the onboard experience of the current Canadian whatsoever. Far from it. Amtrak could learn from it!
It just seems like some 99% of us who've experienced both routes feel the scenery on the Jasper route, as nice as it is, does not provide the same sublime experience.
Moreover, there's the history involved. No story of the birth of a railroad in North America equals the experience of CP as outlined in the "National Dream" and "The Last Spike." Its construction was an heroic act and never more so than between Calgary and Vancouver.
Finally, I resent the Canadian government giving a monopoly on the Banff route to an extraordinarily expensive private company. That smells of lobbying at its worst.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
posted
quote:Originally posted by DonNadeau: Finally, I resent the Canadian government giving a monopoly on the Banff route to an extraordinarily expensive private company. That smells of lobbying at its worst.
And the Canadian government is not in the business to provide a nostalgic adventure for Railfans on a route that was discontinued so long ago.
Rocky Mountaineer runs through Banff and charges a rate that is appropriate for the service they offer. So if you don’t want to pay the going rate.......there doesn’t seem to be a lack of those who will.
And as I said.....this is VIA’s Canadian, not CPs and it just happen to run through Jasper not Banff.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
Did the VIA ever consider splitting the Canadian, headed west, at Winnipeg? Thus running the CN and CP routes to Vancouver. It would make available stops for both Edmonton and Calgary passengers. Too expensive, not enough ridership?
Also, any possibility for an Edmonton to Calgary passenger train?
Richard
DonNadeau Member # 61606
posted
yukon11,
After its inception Via ran via Banff & via Jasper. I can't find a timetable to determine if Via ran a train beyond just Vancouver - Calgary. ----
ghCBNS wrote:
And the Canadian government is not in the business to provide a nostalgic adventure for Railfans on a route that was discontinued so long ago
Some might say this same argument applies to your "VIA’s Canadian," in fact to all service outside of Windsor - Quebec City. Is that what you want?
I have no idea what percentage of the Canadian's passengers consists of Railfans out for "nostalgic adventures" and I doubt that you do.
Although its prices have increased significantly, I agree that these may be appropriate for the experience provided.
Nevertheless, you have not addressed the appropriateness of the Government of Canada outlawing competition that would surely bring these prices down and most importantly open the rail experience to travelers who are less wealthy.
I see no greater good obtained by Ottawa's decision.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
posted
Sure there are railfans riding other VIA trains such as the Ocean, the train up to Churchill and you occasionally see their trip-reports for routes to Jonquiere and Senneterre....but these are not government subsidized railfan excursions and certainly more than railfans filling those 25 car Canadians in the summer!
The Rocky Mountaineer began as a VIA service in 1988 known as the “Canadian Rockies By Daylight”. In 1989, VIA renamed it the Rocky Mountaineer and the following year the service and the equipment (former Day-Niter cars) were sold to the Great Canadian Railtour Company Ltd. This was at the time of the major service cuts at VIA in January 1990 and I don’t believe you or I know the terms of that sale. It’s this company that’s built the service up to the excellant product where it is today. If you think their product is too expensive....don’t ride. There are many others ready to take your place.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
I've taken Rocky Mountaineer 3 times, twice to Jasper and once to Calgary. I hope to take it a 4th time, in the next 2-3 years, to Lake Louise as the leg to Calgary now stops there. I think red leaf service is quite adequate, but the last time we had gold leaf and that was a fantastic experience.
Back to the Canadian, I've always been surprised that it only travels, in each direction, 3X/week. Three of our LD trains, the Builder, Zephyr, and SW Chief are daily runs. I wonder how many times passengers opt out of the Canadian because the departure day doesn't dovetail with their travel itinerary.
Richard
DonNadeau Member # 61606
posted
yukon11,
It's worse than that--2X/week in winter.
Considering how high airfares are within Canada (Canada may be oil rich, but that's not reflected seemingly whatsoever in energy prices), you have to wonder how well the Canadian has been marketed.
Its run Toronto to Vancouver is not dissimilar to New York City to Los Angeles.
Its population density is less, but that does not seem to account for just 2X- or 3X/week operation especially when you consider the SWC manages to survive with simply terrible population demographics between Chicago/Kansas City and Los Angeles.
I suspect the main reason may be government unwillingness to fund. Then there's the quintessential western Canadian complaint that they get ignored by Ontario and Quebec, where most Canadians live.
yukon11 Member # 2997
posted
I guess it would be a little adventurous to wish for a return of the "Trans-Canada Limited", Montreal to Vancouver. It was the longest all-sleeper train in the world. "R" series sleepers and solarium lounge cars. Must have been nice. Also, the "Mountaineer" from Chicago to Vancouver.
I did take the Canadian from Ottawa to Vancouver, when it still ran that way, but from reading your link I guess the experience was just not the same.
ghCBNS Member # 3093
posted
quote:Originally posted by DonNadeau: Its run Toronto to Vancouver is not dissimilar to New York City to Los Angeles.
Its population density is less, but that does not seem to account for just 2X- or 3X/week operation especially when you consider the SWC manages to survive with simply terrible population demographics between Chicago/Kansas City and Los Angeles.
Canada has a land mass larger than the US but with 1/10 the population. On the Canadian’s route between Sudbury and Winnipeg....its 24 hours and 1000 miles but the only sizable town is Sioux Lookout with a population of just 5,000. The rest of the stops in those 1000 miles are isolated First Nation communities or former railway servicing points. Not much traffic potential here other than VIA’s remote service obligations.
Along the entire route of nearly 3000 miles between Toronto and Vancouver you have:
posted
There’s been many changes to the Canadian (CP) and Super Continental (CN) routes in the years since VIA’s inception and too numerous to get into here. But originally there were two trains, both with Montreal and Toronto sections that joined or split in Sudbury (CP route) or Capreol (CN).
By the late 1970s, VIA had rationalized the transcontinental trains and you now had a daily Super Continental on CN between Toronto and Vancouver via Edmonton and Jasper.......and the Canadian on CP between Montreal and Vancouver via Calgary and Banff. The two trains exchanged through cars in Winnipeg.
After the first major VIA cuts in November 1981, the Super Continental was discontinued and the CN line between Jasper and Vancouver (today’s Canadian route) became freight only. The Canadian continued to run between Montreal/Toronto and Vancouver via Calgary and Banff.
VIA restored the Super Continental in June 1985. It now ran only west of Winnipeg to Vancouver via Edmonton and Jasper but picked up through cars from the Canadian in Winnipeg. The Canadian continued to run via Calgary and Banff.
The VIA cuts in January 1990 saw the CP route through Calgary and Banff discontinued and the CN route through Edmonton and Jasper retained.......VIA’s Canadian route today.
jp1822 Member # 2596
posted
Back to topic, four Park Cars and EIGHT Chateau cars were renovated/overhauled etc. for the Prestige Class. So technically, VIA could be running TWO Chateau "Prestige" class cars on each tri-weekly train.
Are all the Park Cars selected for the Prestige makeover done?
How about Chateau?
VIA doesn't worry too much about keeping cars in reserve - if they can sell the space - as much as Amtrak. Example - The current schedule commands four train sets on a tri-weekly schedule, but VIA hasn't left room for error on the Park Cars.
I would imagine that the Prestige Class price has to bring a break-even to VIA. And VIA is banking on this service for the future in many ways.......
So why not two Chateau cars per Canadain train.......assuming all EIGHT are completed. That was to be the plan!
David Member # 3
posted
Effective Friday 1st May ex-Vancouver and Saturday 2nd May ex-Toronto all four consists of the Canadian will feature the Prestige Park car and at least one Château sleeper. VIA's plan is to have two Château sleepers available, if required, for each train. I have been told that initially there will be one per train. This means there will be seven Prestige rooms available (six in the Château and one in the Park) plus one similar room, deemed an "accessible" cabin, in the Park car. On the date I am travelling in June there are only two Prestige rooms left, which is good for VIA.
jp1822 Member # 2596
posted
For what it is worth, I can't see the point in paying the cost for this Prestige class, unless maybe it is for a honeymoon or special anniversary? And also, not to be an @$$ about it, but when I do travel - I travel first class and pay the price for it. But I can't see how the Prestige Class is really worth it, unless you plan on spending the entire trip in your room.
Example - I rode the Canadian in January. As a single rider, I could have easily booked a "section" or "cabin for 1." But, I wanted a little extra room to be comfortable and booked a "cabin for 2." I'll often do this on Amtrak's Superliner equipment too.....
But what did I really use the room for. I used it to store my luggage and sleep. Other than that, I was in the Park Dome Car, Diner, or Skyline Dome. For me, the view was outside, and the best way to see it - from the dome. And the place where one gets food - the Diner! I did decide to do some work in the late evening so I used the lounge portion of the Skyline Dome that had booth/table seating.
When I boarded in Toronto, the attendant had my bedroom already setup for the evening! Since we left on-time out of Toronto - I went to the Park Dome Car and soaked up some hours back there before retiring for the evening.
The attendant (actually both of them - the one out of Toronto and the one out of Winnipeg) did "make-up" my room during the day for me, but frankly, unless I hadn't passed through on my way to the diner - I wouldn't have known the difference.
David Member # 3
posted
quote:Originally posted by jp1822: For what it is worth, I can't see the point in paying the cost for this Prestige class, unless maybe it is for a honeymoon or special anniversary? ...
When I travel alone or with friends, I book a roomette (cabin for 1 as it is now called). Over the years I have received many upgrades to a double bedroom, but all the service managers I came to know well have retired so that doesn't happen any more.
When I travel with my wife we take a double room. As we get older, the experience of climbing up and down to an upper berth has diminished the first class experience. Before VIA brought in a huge fare increase for drawing rooms (cabin for 3) we usually booked this because there are two lower berths. Except for a 10% seniors discount there are no discounted rates, so it is now a rare treat.
The best amenity of the Prestige room is the double bed, with the private shower being the second best. When we took our first cruises and ocean crossings starting 43 years ago, we booked cabins with upper and lower berths. On the first voyage we had to go down the alleyway for the shower. People do not equate upper berths and shared facilities with first class travel - with the exception of the otherwise luxury Orient Express. I'm surprised that VIA can get so many passengers to fill 10 to 15 sleepers for four nights in the summer season.
Having said that, the cost of a Prestige sleeper is too high for us. VIA is charging as much for 3 1/2 days as we pay for a Cunard ocean crossing of a full week in a junior suite with single-seating dining in a "for suite passengers only" restaurant. The Prestige rooms are just what is needed for a truly first class experience, but it may prove too expensive for most people. It will be interesting to see what happens.
posted 
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