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This is the latest of many reports we've had on new activities for Iowa Pacific. So, I thought it might be worth a separate thread for them.
This one is assuming the operation of a former CSX/Piedmont Northern line about 20 miles from Charlotte. The line has been inactive for many years, but looks like it is about to be restored to service: NC DOT selects Iowa Pacific.
Also, an unconfirmed railfan report says former MARC cars are enroute to be painted for Hoosier State service. As noted before, Ed Ellis has shown off his dome/cafe/BC car to be used in that service. Still no confirmation this is actually going to happen.
On a related note, I see that the Pullman Rail Journeys is offering trips this summer on the CZ to Denver. Wonder if they will curtail New Orleans trips during this period. Can't imagine wanting to go there in the summer.
You do have to wonder how IP finances all this. I guess the frac sand and oil is still alive and well in the Permian basin.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: You do have to wonder how IP finances all this. I guess the frac sand and oil is still alive and well in the Permian basin.
This is first hand, one if not more of those principals in that "foamer den" is from a "heap big wampum" background.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
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IP is also supposed to launch passenger service soon on the Eastern Flyer, which will connect Sapulpa to Midwest City (somewhere near Tulsa to almost Oklahoma City). According to published plans, IP will offer 2 round trips a day with tickets costing about $20 each way in coach. Full meal service is planned for the trains, but passengers will have to ride a shuttle bus on each end of the trip to make a complete journey between downtown Tulsa and downtown OKC. One article speculated that a trip from downtown Tulsa to downtown OKC would take about 3 hours--or about twice the time it would take to drive. Unless there's some really spectacular scenery along the way, I don't see this service lasting beyond its 6 month trial period.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by Vincent206 Unless there's some really spectacular scenery along the way, I don't see this service lasting beyond its 6 month trial period.
Which there ain't.
palmland Member # 4344
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Supposedly you get door to door (or at least downtown locations) van service to/from the station to make it easier for commuters. But it is a stretch to think this is could be a success.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
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Sapulpa to Midwest City isn't OKC to Tulsa. Maricopa isn't Phoenix. If Cascades trains only ran from Tukwila to Vancouver WA, ridership would be very low, even with a dining car and shuttle service provided. I wish IP well, but this business plan seems doomed and it could end up making it more difficult to expand passenger rail in the future. To be successful, the OKC to Tulsa corridor would need significant improvements (trackwork, signals, stations, etc.) to provide time-competitive service from downtown to downtown. And those improvements would require government funding. If this Eastern Flyer flops, the nay-sayers will use the failure as an argument that passenger rail is just an expensive boondoggle.
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Looks like former PRR Budd 21 roomette cars they converted to coaches in 60's. Then I think MARC used them
Jerome Nicholson Member # 3116
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Definitely MARC colors. I don't think this is all of them; they may have a food service car or two in the mix.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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OK, allow me to concur that those cars are ex PRR "--Inn" built as 21 RM (rode Pgh-NY Dec '60 in "Jeanette Inn"). While the carbodies were"solid Budd", the conversion to Coaches during '64 could only be called "on the cheap". The interiors had the aesthetics of an OR, and could be cleaned with a garden hose, the windows and seats were never aligned; Pennsy was of thought no one looks out anyway -a philosophy that carried forth to the Metroliner MU, and to this day with the Amfleet.
Unless IP is prepared to do more than painting th into IC livery, then I'd think those cars will represent a downgrade from the existing service.
IP's Business Class? Let's see how long that survives. IP will still need two equipment sets and may find themselves deadheading equipment back to Chicago for maintenance on the off days. The average passenger simply wants a ride, and is probably just going to play with their plaything (assuming Wi-Fi will be available) or attempt to sleep in what I can report first hand is a less comfortable Coach than an A-I.
Will there be a winner? Yes, the Conservatives running the show in Indiana, who can tout they kicked out that Federal bureaucracy and are running things with a Private sector contractor chosen by the people.
Oh, and how about a little "clink in the campaign coffers?"
palmland Member # 4344
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Yes, GBN, those were nasty coaches. But with the window configuration dictated by the 21 roomettes, hard to fit 60+ seats in there without someone staring at a wall.
I am surprised you don't think IP can do a better job than the depressing little Hoosier State as now operated by Amtrak. If nothing else, IP will be investing some of their marketing efforts into it -look for some football specials, extra cars on college holidays, weekend specials etc. I also wouldn't be too surprised to see some of their cars tacked on the back of the Cardinal. When I rode 51 several years ago, coaches were added to the rear for the commuters.
Isn't the winner those poor souls who have to take this train. I'm delighted that a Republican administration is actually showing some interest in passenger rail.
Vincent206 Member # 15447
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The IP proposal for the Hoosier State looks like palliative care to me. Sure, IP should be able to do a better job of taking care of the Hoosier State than Amtrak, but this proposal doesn't cure the problems of the Hoosier State, in particular, or fix the overall roadblocks that stand in the way of building effective passenger rail service in the Midwest. The real solutions to the transportation problems in the Midwest are going to require multi-state and federal partnerships that commit large amounts of money to infrastructure and service. I think the IP/Hoosier State proposal is well-intentioned, but it really won't fix what's wrong with the Hoosier State.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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quote:Originally posted by Vincent206: The IP proposal for the Hoosier State looks like palliative care to me. Sure, IP should be able to do a better job of taking care of the Hoosier State than Amtrak, but this proposal doesn't cure the problems of the Hoosier State, in particular, or fix the overall roadblocks that stand in the way of building effective passenger rail service in the Midwest. The real solutions to the transportation problems in the Midwest are going to require multi-state and federal partnerships that commit large amounts of money to infrastructure and service. I think the IP/Hoosier State proposal is well-intentioned, but it really won't fix what's wrong with the Hoosier State.
Too many fingers in too many pies, and not enough track to keep the fingers rolling. Re-routing the Chicago segment over the route of the City of New Orleans will help runtimes but the severe lack of passing loops on much of the remainder of the route pretty much means "one engine in steam" for hours at a time. Even with passing loops (sorry, "sidings") the headway and timings are going to be poor and "very relaxed" respectively - especially if the practice of hand throwing switches continues.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: I am surprised you don't think IP can do a better job than the depressing little Hoosier State as now operated by Amtrak. If nothing else, IP will be investing some of their marketing efforts into it -look for some football specials, extra cars on college holidays, weekend specials etc. I also wouldn't be too surprised to see some of their cars tacked on the back of the Cardinal. When I rode 51 several years ago, coaches were added to the rear for the commuters.
Isn't the winner those poor souls who have to take this train. I'm delighted that a Republican administration is actually showing some interest in passenger rail.
Mr. Palmland, while the Dome, Business Class, and Food & Beverage could well appeal to many in this community, the fact remains we are addressing a CHI-IND trip that takes five hours on whoever the train's operator may be - and that can be safely driven in 3.25hrs. The existing schedule is useless for sports events and extra cars may or may not be available from IP for peak travel periods. I guarantee you, the schedule is useless to me - and I travel to Indy some three times a year. If I had to use commercial transportation to Indpls (and there was all too great that possibility about two years ago), I'd pay what I have to and fly. If I were younger and/or had budgetary issues, I'd take Megabus.
I'm at a loss to see any winners regardless of whether Amtrak or IP operates the train. The law requiring Local support of Corridors away from the Northeast was an "excuse" for the Conservative governance now gripping Indiana (don't get my friends down there - education and social service - "going" on the political environment now prevailing) to "replace government with private sector". It looks good to their base - 99% of whom will never ride the Hoosier State.
palmland Member # 4344
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Pretty grim outlook, GBN. I do like to think the IP will do a better job. Seems to me that back in the day private enterprise like the ATSF and SCL did a pretty good job of running passenger trains. But, no question, the fundamental flaw with this train is the lousy routing.
I did see one proposal that had the train diverting over to the IC/CN near the town of Harvey, IL (north of Homewood) for the run over that fast track railroad into Chicago via the St. Charles air line. Rather than expect the worst, lets hope for the best.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Let's just say that the train (either as a standalone train or the Cardinal add-on) doesn't really seem to convey business-type people from my observations. An ideal opportunity as I'm sure plenty do make the journey regularly, just they do not do it on a train. Six hours on the road versus ten on the train just doesn't sit well with busines-type people, business car or not. A variable arrival time doesn't help either (ranging from a half hour early to an hour late in the last month alone).
palmland Member # 4344
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Ed Ellis and the Iowa Pacific are at it again, as noted recently in Trains.com.
IP has formed another railroad called the Illinois Co. Railroad. (IC RR to a railfan and Mr. Ellis). They will operate about 175 miles of the old IC/CN passenger main through central Mississippi. It appears to be quite a creative endeavor as IP/IC will be leasing it for operations from the North Central Mississippi Regional Railroad Authority and the present operator, the Grenada Railway which also has rights over the CN into Memphis yard. No purchase required, just play trains:
Apparently the MS Railroad Authority was not amused that the Grenada RR was essentially running the line into the ground. That company is apparently also in the scrap business. I'm sure IP will do a much better job and actually try to get new business. Hope they succeed.
Casey Jones would be pleased. No doubt Mr. Ellis also has visions of excursion trains and, who knows, maybe routing the CONO back on its original route.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The Grenada District, That is the ICRR main between Memphis and Jackson used buy pasenger train. A slightly shorter and quite a bit hillier line than the current line used by the C&NO, that line being the primary freight line for many years being almost flat from end to end.
Last I looked at a piece of the Grenada district when it was still being used by the C&NO. It was still almost entirely jointed rail, the section I saw being 112RE (hint: that stuff was last rolled in 1947) and was well worn. The tie condition in the line was not nuch beyond the minimum necessary.
Since that time,which has been something like 10 years, the line has bee out of service for quite a few years. The ABS has been turned off and many of the remaining signals vandalized. A look at the track shows a lot of neglect since, washouts, heavy growth, mud, paved over crossings, etc., etc.
Anyone dreaming of putting the Grenada District back in serivce had better have plenty of money to go along with his dream.
If someone wants to put the line back in service, it probably could be fixed up for 110 mph or 125 mph for little more than it would take to get it fixed up for a reliable 79 mph..
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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There are reports elsewhere that the Iowa Pacific equipment made test runs, running as 2-850 on in Amtrakese, 1850, through this past weekend and that it is now positioned at IND to handle 851(1).
If there is any foundation to those reports, this one looks like a go. The newly updated Amtrak website (I think it's a +++), however, does not reflect any change at this time.
However, nothing upsets the fact that how many passengers are interested in a service that takes 5'05" and that can safely and lawfully be driven in 3'15". I did the latter about two weeks ago. It would appear the only saving grace is the dirt cheap fare of some $56 for the round trip. This compares with the direct, as distinct from fully allocated, cost of operating my auto down there and back of $143.98.
The Business Class, Dome, and on-board F&B will probably be a pull for the railfan and IP managers doing a "quickie" joyride; not sure about how many others - especially when they must stumble over the imaging gear manned by all too often persons lacking the basics of tact and discretion, but of course attired in distinctive T-Shirts ready to give a narrative on whatever that shirt depicts.
Oh and finally for that joyride; "train car" rooms at Crowne Plaza located at Union Station are about $169, depending of course on supply and demand.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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RE Palmland's story link: is the plan to run Memphis to New Orleans passenger trains?
Well, good luck to them. I don't know that they'll succeed but anything to give a kick up the backside of passenger rail must be a good thing!
palmland Member # 4344
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Geoff, no plans at all but if the line was upgraded, who knows. From George's comments, sounds like a lot of work to be done. While, as a raifan, I'm glad IP got it, it might have been a better fit for an outfit like R.J.Corman who in addition to their short line operations, is a very significant track maintenance company. After Katrina, they helped rebuild a portion of CSX's damaged line into New Orleans.
I think this initiative is strictly all about industrial development in partnership with the regional authority. Now if, say, Chrysler decided they wanted to build a plant midway on the line, that would change things. Until then, I don't think the line will be cash cow to the IP like their Permian basin traffic.
palmland Member # 4344
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Those who read Trains.com may have seen that the sale has been finalized of the former CN/IC primarily passenger route through Mississippi:
"North Central Mississippi Regional Railroad Authority held a ribbon cutting ceremony in Grenada Wednesday to mark Iowa Pacific’s takeover of the former Illinois Central main line through north central Mississippi. The Authority bought the 176-mile Grenada Railway line for $43 million from A&K Railroad Materials. The Authority contributed $30 million, provided by a State of Mississippi bond issue approved by the Mississippi Legislature in 2014. Iowa Pacific provided $13 million and will make lease payments that cover the state bond payments. It is operating the line as the Grenada Railroad."
Iowa Pacific's Ed Ellis should have a good time with this one. Reported elsewhere that his mother grew up four blocks from the station in Granada and that he knew about everyone who worked there: "It was part of why I ended up a railroader". Many of us have similar stories.
Spearheading the project are a former CN/IC engineer, the Mayor of one of the towns on the route, and the head of the Grenada County Economic Development. Ellis' primary focus now, aside from rebuilding what used to be a high speed railroad, is building his traffic base with the paper and lumber industry in the area.
But, of course, he has already announced plans for a Polar Express (7600 tickets already sold) out of Batesville, MS. I suspect he chose that city because of it proximity to Oxford, MS - about 20 miles east, which is now a nicely gentrified small town and home to the University of MS - as well as writer John Grisham.
Who knows, maybe one day the CONO will be changed to run again on its original (and more direct) route, also used by IC trains like the Panama Ltd, Louisiane, Creole, and Southern Express. It just takes money. It's safe to say Ellis has jumped back into his briar patch.
Geoff Mayo Member # 153
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Fantasyland again: they could rename the City of New Orleans back to the Panama Limited, and additionally run the CONO on its daytime schedule as it was in 1971:
8am Chicago 12:35am 1:31pm Carbondale 6:40pm 6:01pm Memphis 2:20pm 11:17pm McComb 8:54am 1:30am New Orleans 7am
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Geoff, that probably is fantasyland, but if IP gets the railroad back to 60/40 speed I could see him starting some sort of passenger service into Memphis. While his trackage stops south of Memphis, he does have rights to operate into the city over the CN. Not sure if that includes the track that passes by Amtrak's station.
RRRICH Member # 1418
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Yeah, my thoughts too -- if Ellis bought the old IC/CN line, maybe we will see a change of routing for the CONO one of these days, although, I personally believe the existing route of the CONO is more "scenic" (if you consider miles and miles of Mississippi Delta farmland, cotton fields, and small Delta towns that the likes of Tanya Tucker, Charley Pride, and Bobby Gentry sing about "scenic"), especially since that area was the birthplace of the "Delta blues" music genre (if you enjoy that type of music). I believe, however, that the former CONO route was a bit faster, wasn't it?
George Harris Member # 2077
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Back when ICRR used the Grenada District as their passenger line, the speed limit was 79 mph for passenger trains. (Freight speed I do not remember, probably 50 mph.) The 79 mph was taken as a suggestion when trains were behind schedule. In the early 60's I was a fairly regular rider between Memphis and Fulton KY and if late out of Memphis the CNO would regularly knock off the miles in the straight track north of Dyersburg at a rate of 36 seconds each, and that was also 79 mph territory. Never experienced it, but from some guys I knew that started their trip at Jackson MS the same was true south of Memphis despite the track conditions making the ride somewhat exciting.
Class I: 10F/15P Class II: 25F/30P Class III: 40F/60P Class IV: 60F/79P Class V: 80F/90P Class VI: 110 F and P Amtrak NEC (segments) Class VII: 125P Amtrak Acela on NEC segments Class VIII: 150P
palmland Member # 4344
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Sad but true: In 1965 (that's 50 years ago, or half century if you want to feel really old), the Panama Ltd, ran the 123 miles from Fulton to Memphis in 2 hours, 9 min - just under 60 mph average with a conditional stop in Dyersburg. Today's Amtrak takes 3 hours and 13 min.
South of Memphis the Panama took 105 min for the 99 miles from Memphis to Grenada with a conditional stop in Batesville. Again just under 60 mph average.
I guess we should be thankful we still have any service on the route of the CONO.
Class I: 10F/15P Class II: 25F/30P Class III: 40F/60P Class IV: 60F/79P Class V: 80F/90P Class VI: 110 F and P Amtrak NEC (segments) Class VII: 125P Amtrak Acela on NEC segments Class VIII: 150P
True this, but just because the FRA says it does not mean the companies will. These numbers are maximums. The company can pick a lesser number if they so choose, and frequently they will. I have seen 79/50 on more than one occasion in employee timetables, also have seen 70/50 at times. Where the BNSF has 90 mph passenger limits, they do not have 80 mph freight limits. They allow 70 for special "hot" freights and 55 mph for all else (if I am remembering that last number correctly)
George Harris Member # 2077
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One more thought on Memphis - Jackson MS:
I-55 parallels the Grenada District from end and for the most part within 3 miles or less. If you have a 60mph (or 59 mph) limit on the Grenada District there are places where you can actually see the cars and trucks on I-55 passing you,much less that you will of necessity be scheduled to run the distance in about 5 hours versus being able to do it in a little over 3 hours on I-55.
You will never make anything much less than the current schedule on the Yazoo District. Why? the Yazoo District is somewhat longer and has more curves than the Grenada District. Freight ran the Yazoo District because it was near dead flat. The ICRR ran some hugely long trains on this district many of which would take miles to get up to the 49 mph speed limit if they could manage it at all.
If you are going to get the Grenada District back into condition for a reasonable, that is, 5 hours or less, passenger service which would require major track work and restoration of signals you might as well get it into condition for 90 mph or even 110 mph passenger operation. The cost will be little more, and probably no more at all to go to 90 mph instead of 79 mph. (Remember, the lack of signaling and train control that prevents the 79 from becoming 80 will no longer be permissible on the line if it is going to operate any passenger trains.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Here is a well-produced video mostly comprised of Ed Ellis' IC liveried equipment:
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