RAILforum: 90MPH+SWC

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Topic: 90MPH+SWC

UncleBuck44
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posted

Does the Southwest Chief go 90 MPH anywhere along its route?
Is there a 79MPH speed limit?

Posts: 547 | From: St. Louis, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged |

Southwest Chief
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YES!

The SWC does go 90mph in a few spots along the way. Thanks to the Santa Fe for installing Automatic Train Stop(ATS) for their premier passenger trains. As a result, Amtrak is allowed to go 90 in these sections. Look at the lead loco and you'll see a funny looking "shoe" over one of the trucks. That's the ATS shoe.

I know for sure that near Williams Jtc. the SWC will go 90. Also after ABQ, near Bernalio, the SWC also goes 90. I think there are sections near Gallup and Winslow too, as well as near Canyon Diablo. And there should be many more, I'm just not familiar with them. But wherever ATS is still in existence, the SWC can go 90mph.

79mph would be the limit if ATS did not exist.

Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged |

Geoff Mayo
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posted

What type of transmission does the ATS use? You mention a shoe - is it similar to a UK AWS ramp with a fixed magnet and an electromagnet, or is it more involved than that?

Thanks

Geoff M.

Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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The SWC operates at 90MPH between Ft Madison, IA and Carrolton, Mo. There are short segements between Carrolton and Kansas City where it can also operate at 90MPH but otherwise 79MPH is the cap!! 79MPH is also the speed between Chicago and Ft Madison. Between KC and Hutchison, Ks it operates at 79MPH although ATS is still in effect between Holiday and Emporia on the Topeka Sub. Hutchison to LA is almost entirely 90MPH with the exception of segments whereas ATS is not in effect but it's far and few between.

The previous poster is correct whereas the ATS is operated thru an electro-magnetic process. The so-called shoe picks up the electro-magnetic charge from Inductors located on the ties next to the rail at signals. Clear signals will not trip the ATS but anything else will prompt the engineer to acknowledge a "Hit" from the ATS Inductors or otherwise a "Penalty Application" of the Air Brakes will occur immediately. Train must come to a stop before the Penalty Application can be reset!! When the ATS becomes inoperative another set of rules apply and they are quite intensive with the exception that a speed of 79MPH cannot be exceeded.

Posts: 53 | From: Kansas City, Missouri USA | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |

kjkober
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Lunch at a table with strangers is usually a challenge anyhow...but lunch at 90 mph, as my last SWC trip demonstrated, comes with its own set of unique issues. The meal was still great!

Posts: 42 | From: Akron, Ohio USA | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged |

atsf3751
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Don't forget the *other* 90mph Amtrak operation, also on former ATS Santa Fe trackage - the Pacific Surfliner. The 90mph section is essentially south of San Juan Capistrano all the way to Solana Beach, although there are a number of sections that are slower. The tracks parallel I-5 much of the way, you know the train is doing 90 when it's passing up the cars on the highway!

Posts: 246 | From: Anaheim, CA | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged |

Mike Smith
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Kool.....

I'll be on both of those trains in May.
And I'll have my GPS with me, so I'll know when we are cruising at 90 mph.

Is it May, yet??!!??

Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

rmiller
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When you get back, would you please post where you observed 90MPH running? I'm not so sure it is as widespread as other posters have said.

Posts: 181 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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If you have access to BNSF Timetables then you can look it up but I doubt you do so take our word for it.

Posts: 53 | From: Kansas City, Missouri USA | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |

Southwest Chief
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OK, here are the 90mph sections from the Altamont Press Southwest Region Timetable (3), going west from Trinidad, Colorado and ending at Needles, California. Sorry I only have this region, but the entire route is avaliable. The book mentions Rule 12.1 which deals with ATS (Automatic Train Stop)

(Note! this info is from 1997 and could have changed)

Glorieta Subdivision
Milepost 835.2(Lamy) to 865.3(Domingo)
876.6 (Nueve) to 894.7 (Alameda)
902.4 (Albuquerque) to 906.4 (Rio Bravo)

Gallup Sub
10.1 (Dalies) to 27.4 (Dalies)
33.9 (Rio Puerco) to 42.2 (Garcia)
45.7 (??) to 58.7 (Marmon)
94.3 (East Grants) to 153.9 (East Gallup)
161.3 (West Gallup) to 205.9 (Chambers)
225.2 ( ? Zuni) to 274.8 (Hibbard)

Seligman Sub
286.6 (West Pass) to 326.7 (East Darling)
374.3 (Williams JTC) to 418.3 (East Crookton)
493.3 (? Hackberry) to 513.9 (Getz)
527.0x (Griffith) to 561.5 (? Powell)
574.7 (East Needles) to 578 (Needles)

[This message has been edited by Southwest Chief (edited 03-14-2003).]

Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged |

atsf3751
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And as for the Surfliner's 90mph sections, timetables have it posted at 90 through San Clemente southward most of the way to Oceanside. The tracks parallel the I-5 much of the way, so it's pretty easy to tell when the train is doing 90 because it will be passing up the cars, which typically do 70-80.

Posts: 246 | From: Anaheim, CA | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged |

TwinStarRocket
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In western Kansas the SWC runs close enough to U.S. 50 to see the highway mile markers. I've timed 40 second miles (90mph) for substantial distances.

Does anyone know if the SWC derailment west of Topeka a few years back was on 90mph track? Was the cause ever determined?

Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |

Mike Smith
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OK, how do you want me to document the SW Chief's time at 90mph? In minutes, by mileposts (& how can I determine that?), or by GPS points?

Let me know, and I'll post the info sometime around May 12.

Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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Here are the Speed Limits for the Southwest Chief from Chicago to Los Angeles directly from appropriate Timetables by Subdivsions.

Mendota Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations
1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
Montgomery to Galesburg
....... 79 MPH. ....... 60 MPH.

Chillicothe Sub
1(A). Speed- Maximum
Passenger ---- Freight
MP 185.0 to Ft. Madison,including trains 100 TOB and over
....... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.

Marceline Subdivision
1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
Ft. Madison to W.B. Jct., including trains 100 TOB and over
..... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

W.B. Jct. to C.A. Jct. (Main 1), including trains 100 TOB and over
..... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

C.A. Jct. to Hardin (Main 2), including trains 100 TOB and over
..... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

C.A. Jct. to Bridge MP 425.0, including trains 100 TOB and over
..... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Bridge 425.0 to MP 444.2, including trains 100 TOB and over
..... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
* Unless otherwise restricted , the maximum speed for freight trains is 70 MPH.

Topeka Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
Holliday to N.R. Jct., including trains
100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.

LaJunta Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
MP124.7 to MP 220.5
...... 79 MPH..........55 MPH.*
MP 220.5 to MP 554.9
...... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Raton Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
La Junta to Trinidad
..... 90 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.
Trinidad to Raton
..... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.
Raton to Las Vegas
..... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.

Glorietta Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
Las Vegas to Lamy
... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.
Lamy to Dalies
... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH.

Gallup Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed- Maximum
Passenger Freight
Belen Jct. to Dalies, including 100 TOB and over
... 55 MPH*.

Main 2
Dalies to Marmon, including 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Marmon to Gonzales, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Gonzales to Gallup (westward only), including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Gallup to Gonzales (eastward only), including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Gallup to East Winslow, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.

Main 1
East Winslow to Gallup, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Gallup to Gonzales, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Gonzales to MP 85.9 (eastward only), including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Gonzales to MP 85.9 (westward only), including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
MP 85.9 to Marmon, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.
Marmon to Dalies, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH*.

Seligman Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed-Maximum
Passenger Freight
Westward Movements Both Tracks East Winslow to Maine, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Eastward Movements Both Tracks Maine to East Darling, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

East Darling to East Winslow, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Both Tracks Both Directions
Maine to East Crookton, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

East Crookton to West Seligman, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Main 1
West Seligman to Peach Springs, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Peach Springs to Needles, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Main 2
Needles to Getz, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Getz to MP 484.0, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

MP 484.0 to West Seligman, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Against the Current of Traffic
MP 446.8 to MP 465.8, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

MP 467.6 to MP 484.0, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH. *

MP 485.8 to MP 509.4, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

MP 511.5 to MP 526.9, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

MP 528.8 to MP 551.7, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

MP 553.5 to East Needles, including trains 100 TOB and over
... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Needles Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed—Maximum
Passenger Freight
Main 1
Needles to Goffs, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Goffs to Bagdad, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Bagdad to Pisgah, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Pisgah to Daggett, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Daggett to Barstow, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Main 2
Barstow to Daggett, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Daggett to Pisgah, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Pisgah to MP 685.8, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
MP 685.8 to MP 671.4
...... 79 MPH. ....... 45 MPH.
MP 671.4 to Bagdad, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
Bagdad to MP 646.1, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 90 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*
MP 646.1 to Needles, including trains 100 TOB and over
...... 79 MPH. ...... 55 MPH.*

Cajon Subdivision
1(A). Speed—Maximum
Passenger Freight
Barstow to San Bernardino
...... 79 MPH. ....... 55 MPH

San Bernardino Subdivision
1. Speed Regulations

1(A). Speed—Maximum
Passenger Freight
San Bernardino to Fullerton Jct.
...... 60 MPH. ...... 50 MPH.#
Fullerton Jct. to MP 144.5
...... 79 MPH. ...... 50 MPH.#
San Pedro Jct. to Harbor Jct., Main 1 and 2
...... 40 MPH. ...... 40 MPH.#
San Pedro Jct. to MP 144.0, Main 3 and 4
...... 65 MPH. ...... 40 MPH.#

Posts: 53 | From: Kansas City, Missouri USA | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |

RRCHINA
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Santa Fe 5704 has given a complete analysis
An interesting side light, from Williams Jct
to East Crookton was restricted to 20-25 MPH
prior to 12-19-1960 in many locations, But Santa Fe built a 90 MPH railroad 44 miles through the mountains that is one of the most significant relocations ever for a railroad constructed in the 1880's. You may see details in The Santa Fe Route by David
Myrick. An amazing accomplishment that has
created the Santa Fe Transcon, the fastess
railroad between Chicago and LA.

Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged |

Southwest Chief
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TwinStarRocket,

If you are refering to the March 15, 2000 derailment near Carbondale, Kansas, the cause was defective rail. Five Superliners were damaged. Two sleepers, 32094(Montana) and 32118(Wyoming) have been repaired. Diner 38049, Lounge 33046, and Coach Smoking 31533 could still be unrepaired.

Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged |

rmiller
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quote:
Originally posted by mikesmith:
OK, how do you want me to document the SW Chief's time at 90mph? In minutes, by mileposts (& how can I determine that?), or by GPS points?
Let me know, and I'll post the info sometime around May 12.

I was mainly interested in the section you'll cross in the morning on the second day, say Dodge City - La Junta. I had heard that most of the KC-ABQ section had been downgraded to 79MPH recently, although without a major schedule change, I don't see how that makes sense. No need to be exact, just sample a bit and see what you come up with, station names would be fine.

Posts: 181 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

rmiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Santa Fe 5704:
Here are the Speed Limits for the Southwest Chief from Chicago to Los Angeles directly from appropriate Timetables by Subdivsions.
#

WOW, thanks! Clipped and saved. One question, are these current?

Posts: 181 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

RRCHINA
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Between Dodge City and La Junta there should be Mile Post markers visible from the right (North) side of the SWC. Dodge is MP 353 and La Junta is MP 555. They may not all be there but most will be and that should let you check the speed. Let us know please.

Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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Information I posted is up to date as of the present. Timetables were effective January 2002 and no General Orders have been issued changing anything. The poster that's going to travel with a GPS Receiver will find the information correct. Also, the area between Hutchison and LaJunta is probably the fastest piece of track on the former Santa Fe System.

Posts: 53 | From: Kansas City, Missouri USA | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |

rmiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Santa Fe 5704:
Information I posted is up to date as of the present. Timetables were effective January 2002 and no General Orders have been issued changing anything.

Thanks very much for taking the time to post all of that and I'm glad to know the rumor I had heard about the speeds being lowered was NOT true.

rick

[This message has been edited by rmiller (edited 03-18-2003).]

Posts: 181 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

Greg
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The segment across western Kansas, southeast Colorado, and northern New Mexico via Raton Pass did have top speeds reduced from 90 mph to 79 mph at some time in the 1990's when Santa Fe removed ATS as part of the replacement of the semaphore signals along that portion of the route.

Through fine-tuning of the schedule along the entire route, end to end times from Chicago to Los Angeles changed little at that time. Subsequently, more time has been added to the schedule to allow for handling of express traffic, mainly into and out of Chicago and into and out of Kansas City from the west.

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Santa Fe 5704
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Santa Fe got by with removing the ATS at that time but today the FRA would never allow the removal of ATS account of all the accidents since that time era. For example: Santa Fe reduced the Topeka Sub from 90 to 79mph a few years ago and made application to the FRA to remove the ATS. FRA denied the application account the ATS is still a Form of Train Control.

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rmiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg:
The segment across western Kansas, southeast Colorado, and northern New Mexico via Raton Pass did have top speeds reduced from 90 mph to 79 mph at some time in the 1990's when Santa Fe removed ATS as part of the replacement of the semaphore signals along that portion of the route.

Well, doggone, you and Santa Fe 5704 cannot both be correct. His timetable shows 90MPH running Dodge to Trinidad, for example.

rick

Posts: 181 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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The speed of the SWC in Colorado and New Mexico does not matter account all the curves that are restricted much slower. The racetrack between Hutcheson and LaJunta is where the fastest speed for the longest continuous time is at. This other guy is talking about the past and that is not important anymore so he should refrain from trying to confuse anyone. I posted information from BNSF's present Timetable which I had second thoughts about doing but did anyway. I work for BNSF as an engineer and have access to current timetables whereas rail fans do not have this access unless they know how to get it. BNSF offers all System Timetables on their website to the public but you have to know how to get into that site. It's no secret and is rather easy whereas Union Pacific offers nothing to the general public at all.

Posts: 53 | From: Kansas City, Missouri USA | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |

The Chief
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SFe 5704,

Thanks for the speed table.
I saved it for my upcoming SWChief trip.

- - - - -The Chief

Posts: 190 | From: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: Dec 2002 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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You'll find the table useful but remember that there are countless "Temporary Speed Restrictions" that I just could not re-produce account the area that it would have taken on this page. If you are sitting or standing in a location that you can see the right hand side of the train in direction of travel then you may at times see the yellow signs with the restrictions on them. P will be for Passenger and F for Freight. Good luck on your journey. I took the SWC last year from KC to LA and enjoyed the trip both ways.

Posts: 53 | From: Kansas City, Missouri USA | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged |

metrolinkvalleysub
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I remember in Missouri we were running about 90. I also remember terrible westbound track between Ft. Madison and Kansas City. (7/02)

Why was the track so bad?
Thanks,
David MP 15.06 SCRRA Valley Sub

Posts: 11 | From: Sun Valley, California, USA | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Santa Fe 5704
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Rough track eh? I ran the SWC from Kansas City to Chicago and back for 6 months in 1987 and have to agree with you on the rough track. It always seemed the farther east we got the smoother the track became. Also, I noticed while riding in the coaches that the 90MPH segment was just plain awful!!! 79MPH is really fast enough.
Freight rides kinda rough also at 70MPH on the Marceline Sub. Santa Fe done a lot of work on this territory and BNSF also has done a lot of work. We are constantly getting new rail in various curves as well as new ties. Between Eton and Congo we now have continuous concrete ties. They rode pretty smooth at first but now the ride is getting horrible in places. The mud pumps really bad next to the Missouri River.
It could possibly be the amount of trains that BNSF runs over this subdivision. Almost everything has doublestack equipment on it these days.

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rmiller
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A couple of summers ago, I was chatting with a crew member on another train who said the SWC was called the "black and blue" train and that she flat out refused to work it.

rick

Posts: 181 | From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |

RRCHINA
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That portion of the BNSF east of KC has always been rough after the winter season, until MOW crews can work on it.
The reason, freezing and the subsequent thaw
in this very damp ( wet) area and the frequency of trains that make it difficult for the MOW (Maintenance of Way) crews to restore it. Yes, it is usually worst near the large river crossings where the embankment is highest and therefore more vulnerable to geting wet and freezing.

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Santa Fe 5704
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Today 03/24/03 I just got to Ft Madison around Noon. We departed KC at 8:05am and moved 70mph constantly with exception of permanent speed restrictions.The trip both ways at 70MPH was a constant up and down jerking sideways motion on Dash 9's. MOW crews will soon start work on the track and delays for both freight and passenger will increase.

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rmiller
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Rode the SWC out of Chicago 3/23 to Fullerton and agree, the Fort Madison to KC was the worst overall section of track; balance west was very good with only a few rough sections here and there. Noticed there is still a good deal of jointed rail KC to Albq; and semephores are still seen between La Junta and Albq. occassionally. Until April 9th, there is a temp schedule change in effect between La Junta and Albq due to track work on the southern freight line and the planned movement of more freights on the northern route. The long service stop at La Junta has been eleminated so arrival in Albq can be VERY early if no delays are encountered. We had two hours in Albq.

rick

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