posted
Alas, poor US HSR...seeming so optimistic back in the late 1990s, now with hopes dashed by Acela Express not having been prepared nor executed properly by our friends at the NRPC.
Is the very concept dead here? Are the hopes for seeing many 150+ mph trains rolling across the rails now relegated to pure fantasy (or just the borders of Rhode Island and Massachusetts)?
I prefer to remain optimistic, but the total absence of capital investment in HSR lately leaves me utterly disappointed, and looking to the skies at regional jets in smoldering anger. Where are these trains...???
[This message has been edited by irishchieftain (edited 04-14-2002).]
[This message has been edited by irishchieftain (edited 04-14-2002).]
posted
With the purported "demise" of Amtrak's LD trains, I would think (and hope) that the HSR initiatives would take high priority to regions. Alas, the state's economies are still in the dumper, and may postpone or even kill some of them. I would hope that such as Calif., CCC, NYC-Buf, and some others would at least succeed, thus giving impetus to a "rebirth" of LD trains.
Posts: 53 | From: Mahwah, NJ, USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
CarterB, methinks you are too pessimistic about the long-distance trains. I give the long-distance trains an 80% chance of survival. Aside from some high-profile people like John McCain, there are very few people in Congress who are willing to let Amtrak service die in their states on their watch. The question in my mind is not whether the trains will survive, but whether they will be given enough support to grow and thrive.
On the subject of high-speed service, patience is as essential as determination. As with any major public works project it will take a long time to plan, fund and implement the service. The planning for high-speed rail is still in its infancy. It will be 10 years or more before we see them running outside of the NEC.
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
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10 years? Aren't we supposed to see 125 mph on the Empire Corridor soon, and 110 mph on the Chicago - Detroit and Chicago - St. Louis route in the near future?
Posts: 56 | From: Hawley, PA | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I started my railroad career at the AAR in 1977, and shortly thereafter, the FRA came out with a report on "emerging corridors", locations in the US with potential for high speed rail.
25 years later, I'm still waiting for even one of those corridors to emerge (NYP - WAS was NOT one, as it had already emerged at that point. So had NYP - BOS, with the Turbotrain carded for 3:35 Back Bay to Grand Central).
Don't anybody hold your breath...
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by rresor: Don't anybody hold your breath...
Good advice. The recent developments may be encouraging, but it's all happened before. If history is any indication, we'll get one new corridor for every ten proposed. If we're lucky.
The only hope is the fact that we're running out of room for highways, and that oil prices are likely to skyrocket in the future. But since most US domestic policy tends to be reactionary rather than foresighted, it's hard to see anything happenning until it's too late.
posted
Mr. Toy, unfortunately my 'pessimism' is based on fact. Congress won't increase funding for next FY beyond what it is now. Amtrak is hemorrhaging money, thus I would bet on cutbacks of routes, particularly the overnight runs. Days of the WOOF Ltd. may be over. I have felt for years that the future of rail in USA will be based on regional initiatives, where the states/regions put their money where their mouths are........and then a National system can use these 'feeders' as the basis of interregional services. Yer not gonna get the Feds to keep coughing up money for a train that stops in E. Bejesus, MT at 3:00am to pick up one passenger going to W. Podunk, ID.
Posts: 53 | From: Mahwah, NJ, USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by CarterB: Mr. Toy, unfortunately my 'pessimism' is based on fact. Congress won't increase funding for next FY beyond what it is now.
Actually Amtrak's $1.2 billion request is working its way through the budget process as we speak, and there is a high probability it will pass.
quote:Amtrak is hemorrhaging money, thus I would bet on cutbacks of routes, particularly the overnight runs.
Historically, cutbacks have almost always hurt Amtrak's bottom line. Those overnight trains are full of people and many transfer to and from regional trains. If those connections are lost the regional trains will lose a lot of business. Long distance trains perform better by many standards (load factors, revenue per passenger mile, etc) than regional trains.
It should be added that outside of the NEC, the regional trains are HUGE money losers. California's trains' for example, cover less than 50% of their expenses at the ticket box. The rest is a direct state/federal subsidy. Long distance trains actually cover more of their costs than the regional trains do.
quote:Days of the WOOF Ltd. may be over.
What is WOOF Ltd?
quote:I have felt for years that the future of rail in USA will be based on regional initiatives, where the states/regions put their money where their mouths are........and then a National system can use these 'feeders' as the basis of interregional services.
Emerging regional corridors are all based around long-distance routes. The long distance infrastructure provides a foundation on which regional services are built, not the other way around. Regional services, while important, are less effective if passengers are unable to travel outside of the region. The long-distance trains tie the regional corridors together, allowing more flexibility of travel, thus attracting more passengers.
quote:Yer not gonna get the Feds to keep coughing up money for a train that stops in E. Bejesus, MT at 3:00am to pick up one passenger going to W. Podunk, ID.
Aside from the fact that Amtrak doesn't stop in cities with those names, let's assume you are referring to the Empire Builder. If we were talking about a train that only served two isolated towns in the North, you would be right. But the Seattle/Chicago leg serves 40 cities and towns, big and small. This train is one of Amtrak's best financial performers. By serving 40 locations, it offers a whopping 780 different combinations of origin/destination city pairs. (And that doesn't even include the Spokane/Portland branch). This makes it tremendously versatile. It acts as both a long-haul service AND serves as a regional corridor train for all the regions it passes through (as do all long-distance trains).
Many cities and towns in Montana, probably more than on any other route, depend on the trains for winter transportation. It is a vital economic lifeline for many towns, not just a minor player in the transportation field.
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
Well, in "context", the "WOOF Limited" refers to any Amtrak long-distance train (i.e. that Amtrak reduced to a shell of its former glorious self, what with extending schedules back to the days of 4-4-0 steam locos), WOOF being a derogatory acronym for "Well-off old folks" or "well-off old f@rts", i.e. the stereotypical denizen of Amtrak's long-distance service nowadays. I say stereotypical, because I've seen a cross-section of the populace on Amtrak's LD services whenever I've been on them...
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In regards to the Empire Builder, I have gotten the impression over the years that this train is far more important than a train such as the Cardinal (which stops at Indianapolis at the ungodly hours of almost 2 am and after 4 am, depending on the direction, totally useless to a city of that caliber, and the only train serving there to boot); the Builder continues to be a vital transportation lifeline for many remote areas. Personally, I see zero sense in continuing to fund trains that perform in a far poorer fashion than their predecessors (e.g. service between NY City and Chicago, down from 16 hours to 24 hours), on slower and far more dangerous track (for the most part) and being held up by freight trains, not to mention having more stops in a futile effort to garner more revenue from fares. You have to offer superior service to prospective customers, which includes less hassle traveling from origin to destination, with a far more comfortable ride, plus a trip that's speedy enough to beat the auto and be competitive with airplanes (depending on the destinations in question). That's where HSR comes in...but so far, we're looking out the open door, with the big invitation sign still glowing in the moonlight...
[This message has been edited by irishchieftain (edited 04-16-2002).]
posted
Great points Mr Toy. I ceertainly agree that the national system must be in place for the corridor service to emerge. Without the national system the corridors will vanish soon after. I hope no one is dissillusioned to the fact that once a long distance route is gone, it'll be gone for a very long time, if it ever returns. Reggie
posted
Yer not gonna get the Feds to keep coughing up money for a train that stops in E. Bejesus, MT at 3:00am to pick up one passenger going to W. Podunk, ID.
ROTFL!!!!!!
Posts: 37 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
What budget Amtrak gets for FY03 and how they use it remains to be seen. I stand by my statements: that much of the future of any National Rail Passenger system will depend on the advent and success of HSR initiatives, not the other way around. People will travel by train for interegional trips where elapsed time is favorable or at least close to drive or fly time (including wait-time, etc.). I am sure that the huge majority of travellers on the Calif and NEC corridors use train to get point to point on the respective system rather than ongoing to LD trains. The early success of rail passenger service was based on many 'feeder' trains that brought people to a main line and thus on to another destination. So could it be in the future. A set of sound High Speed corridors could 'feed' the interegional trains and overnight trains. Look at Europe for examples of how well this works.
Posts: 53 | From: Mahwah, NJ, USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:What budget Amtrak gets for FY03 and how they use it remains to be seen
Well, the sad thing is, most likely, that it'll be meager pickings designed to maintain the status quo, or (as has been noted over Amtrak's existence) allow the status quo to decay slowly. Even sadder is the bare fact that no other entities in the US are willing to take up the HSR mantle, for obvious reasons.
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