posted
I remember that this was a favorite topic to blast as a boondoggle over on Railroad.net. I'm pretty much in agreement with the sentiment that it would be a frivolous (and wasteful) exercise to turn this post office, which somewhat resembles the old NY Penn Station, into a new concourse for Amtrak, especially when no new tracks will be added. Having visited the facility yesterday and watched it in action, I can imagine the occurrence of such a thing even less. Well, I'd imagine that this has retreated to being a dead issue for now...but if there's some manner of dogged sentiment in existence trying to push the project forward, let's hear it.
Posts: 566 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
The conversion of New York City's huge, neo-classical Main Post Office into an Amtrak station has been delayed. The Postal Service is dragging its heels over the deal it made with Amtrak, the city, and the state.
Does it matter?
Yesterday, I descended into the bowels of the current Penn Station to pick up Amtrak's new timetable. God, what a depressing hole.
The station was built during the 1960s by arrogant men who were confident that rail travel was irrelevant, if not dead.
It shows. The entire station is hidden away in the basement under Madison Square Garden. The exterior Amtrak signage is so small that many visitors to New York pass the entrance without realizing you can actually catch a real train there.
Inside, the low-ceilinged station is airless and claustrophobic. The harsh "prison" lighting makes everyone look like the cast of "Night of the Living Dead." And the place is so poorly planned that when a tourist asked me for help in finding a public phone, the directions I gave were so unavoidably complex that I'm sure they were useless.
The concourse and waiting areas are just too small to accommodate the ocean of people that passes through each day. Remember, the station also hosts the Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, and the New York subway.
Yesterday was only an average Sunday. It wasn't a holiday or summer vacation. And Amtrak's big board showed that the dozen or so trains due to depart within the hour were "on time" -- including the Lake Shore Limited.
Yet the concourse was wall-to-wall with waiting passengers. Luggage was piled everywhere. Little kids were screaming. Everyone looked stressed-out and depressed. I had to fight my way through the crush.
Why move Amtrak across the street to the Farley Post Office? All you have to do is take a look at Amtrak's beautiful stations in Washington D.C., Los Angeles, Chicago - or even Philadelphia.
Better yet, just walk northeast across Manhattan to the amazing Grand Central Terminal -- still the world's most exciting place to begin or end a rail journey.
Unfortunately, Amtrak no longer uses it; it's now for local commuter trains. And the equally magnificent, original Pennsylvania Station is long gone.
No, they probably can't do anything to increase the number of tracks in New York. The limited real estate, the hundred year-old tunnels, and the right-of-way into this very crowded city are only so big.
But if you want to convert that old Post Office for railroad use? Hey, sign me up. Amtrak passengers deserve a real station that actually works -- and so does New York City.
posted
I forgot the exact quote or where I saw it, but it does something like this: Taking the train into Penn Station is like entering NYC via the service entrance. As bad as Penn Station is now, it used to be much worse. The mezzanine area was downright dingy and scary, and the upper waiting area was dismal. Now the cracked floor tiles are gone, the lighting is better, there is more security, more businesses, and slightly better signage. They've done a decent job with what they have to work with. However, there leaves a lot to be desired. There is still hardly any seating in the waiting area...there is one glassed-in section for ticket holders, but it is very small and not near anything else. On busy days, most passengers just set up camp on the floor. I guess they don't put in benches to discourage homeless people, but how come other big city stations can deal? Look at what Boston has...lovely tables and chairs, just steps from the platforms. The track area is still disgusting. I'm still amazed that in other cities you can exit a train and just walk up a platform to the station, rather than crowd onto a few narrow escalators or stairways, only to climb two levels (and still be underground!). I used to love NYC, until I started travelling elsewhere! Posts: 53 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
The basic problem is that no matter how date MSG and Penn Station looks (and, having grown up with it's current configuration, it seems natural to me), the fact is the location is just too darn convienent. Moving the Amtrak ticket offices to Farley just adds to the schlep without really gaining anything in convience, and the platforms will remain the same anyway. Just like those dumb plans to move MSG to the River (West Side Highway) - thanks, but I'll pass on the annoying 3 (long) block schlep after the concerts... (right now, one staircase - straight down to the Station - perfect!)
Posts: 11 | From: Lynbrook, NY, US | Registered: Mar 2002
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Quite right. Presumably they'd build an underground connection to the existing Penn Sta to service the 8th and, by proxy, 7th Avenue subways (in fact, there already is a subway entrance on the post office side of 8th Ave), but the schlep from the Amtrak concourse would be a bit much for most passengers. Remember, too, that the concourse as designed is in the middle of the complex, half a long block from 8th Ave.
Therein lies another sticky point: the whole thing is half-a**ed. The USPS will only relinquish the middle of the building, relegating Amtrak to an undersized atrium with inconvenient entrances on the relatively narrow 31st and 33rd streets. The side of the building with the greatest aesthetic appeal, that looks most like an entrance to a train station and actually faces an avenue, will still be a post office. Sounds like 1963 all over again.
Sure, we'd no longer enter the city as rats. Just alley cats.
Also, is no one else disturbed by the fact that the new concourse has been designed by Skidmore, Owings and Merril, perpetrators of some of the worst architecture of the 20th Century? They've even gone so far as to include a clumsy (excuse me - "soaring") steel and glass wall extending 50 or so feet above the building. Interpretive of the steel and glass ceiling of the old Penn Station, they say. Leave it to SO&M to go to more trouble to interpret a glass ceiling than to actually make one.
But interpretation seems to be the theme here. It all looks pretty airportish to me.
Still, the existing station is intolerable, as was eloquently portrayed above by "Dilly", and cannot be allowed to remain the only intercity rail portal for New York. Even the poor location and "interprative themes" of the new plan are a vast improvement on the existing structure. Unfortunately, it seems to be the best that can be done. So let's just burn a candle for the tragedy of 1963 and take what we can get.
For those who haven't seen them yet, preliminary drawings are available here. Don't be too awed by the evident size of the concourse and ticket hall. The people in those pictures are cleverly out of scale.
posted
Good night! Those drawings are ugly. That design has nothing to do with the look of the Farley building or the original Penn...it looks like an ocean wave attacking the post office. The glass ceiling makes me think of the naked Homer Simpson being dragged up the roof of the crystal cathedral.
> Also, is no one else disturbed by the fact > that the new concourse has been designed by > Skidmore, Owings and Merril, perpetrators > of some of the worst architecture of the > 20th Century?
Never heard of these guys...what other buildings are they responsible for?
One thing that can be said for the Farley designs--natural light, something that the current Penn can never have.
> But interpretation seems to be the theme > here. It all looks pretty airportish to me.
Of course it's going to look airportish. Rather than treat rail as its own unique mode of travel, the current mindset is probably to try to link rail to air travel in the consumer's mind as much as possible. But you just can't do that...what you expect from air travel can't be delivered with rail, and vice versa.
Posts: 53 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Good night! Those drawings are ugly. That design has nothing to do with the look of the Farley building or the original Penn...it looks like an ocean wave attacking the post office. The glass ceiling makes me think of the naked Homer Simpson being dragged up the roof of the crystal cathedral.
> Also, is no one else disturbed by the fact > that the new concourse has been designed by > Skidmore, Owings and Merril, perpetrators > of some of the worst architecture of the > 20th Century?
Never heard of these guys...what other buildings are they responsible for?
One thing that can be said for the Farley designs--natural light, something that the current Penn can never have.
> But interpretation seems to be the theme > here. It all looks pretty airportish to me.
Of course it's going to look airportish. Rather than treat rail as its own unique mode of travel, the current mindset is probably to try to link rail to air travel in the consumer's mind as much as possible. But you just can't do that...what you expect from air travel can't be delivered with rail, and vice versa.
Posts: 53 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
These are from the NY Post ... seems like the project is moving forward:
MY MISTAKE ... THOUGHT THESE WERE FROM 2002, NOT 2001. The Ny Times though on Oct 11th last year said the project was delayed because the Post Office couldn't give up space since 9/11. Later that week I remember reading in the Post that NY secured a promise from Bush to keep the project moving. Any more word since then?? I can't even find the article anymore.
quote:SCORE! STAUBACH WINS PENN STATION CONTRACT New York Post; New York; Mar 16, 2001; Steve Cuozzo;
Abstract: It will encompass 100,000 square feet of retail space, "flagship" facilities for Amtrak, subway improvements and unspecified airport access facilities for JFK and Newark airports - all under a dramatic, swooping glass skylight meant to suggest the concourse ceiling of the original Penn Station, demolished in 1965.
quote:NFL'ER GETS ABOARD - STAUBACH IN LEAD TO BUILD PENN STATION New York Post; New York; Mar 15, 2001; Lois Weiss and Steve Cuozzo;
Abstract: PSRC Chairman Charles Gargano told The Post last week, "All the funding is in place" for the plan to create a new Penn Station inside the sprawling James Farley Post Office building between Eighth and Ninth avenues, and between 31st and 33rd streets.
A planned, soaring glass ceiling might remind New Yorkers of the concourse of the original Penn Station, modeled on ...
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Posts: 22 | From: Yardley, PA US | Registered: Mar 2002
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