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Mr. Toy, I am a lot older than youand I can remember the pullman cars. The bedrooms weren't any bigger than those now and the pullmans were not as nice as the roomettes. You might be sharing a seat with a stranger . If you had the lower berth you had the seat facing forward and the upper berth had the one facing to the rear. There was no door to close during the day and the upper berth was really clostrophobic compared to today's accomadations. Also youforgot to mention the eastern ld trains which is understandable since you live on the west coast.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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That is why uppers were cheaper. It is also why for the usual situation of a railroad employee traveling on company business, they let you have an upper, only.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Train Lady - I just saw a Pullman at the museum in Sacramento, took pictures soon to be available to all. The lower berth was much wider than the current one, was even made up for two. There was no "wall" or door, just curtains. I presume the current configuration with walls on each side of the walkway took up more space which resulted in narrower lower berths. Couldn't really tell how wide the upper berth was. Trip report coming soon, San Joaquins.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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The berths may have been wider but the lack of privacy did not make up for that. The curtains were fabric which you zipped up from inside.When the train "lurched" which it did( and does) on occasion if someone were walking by at the moment they would land on your bed. Simlpy because there were no hard walls to lean on and no door to close. I had it happen more than once and it is not fun!
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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This thread appears to be in response to a reply I made under the "Welcome to the Forum" board. I'm wondering why we are continuing the discussion on the Amtrak board.
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You can still ride in this type of accommodation on VIA's Canadian, Chaleur & The Hudson Bay. Also on the Ocean when the Budd equipment is in use.
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Although I have never travelled in a berth of a section, I know people who take them whenever possible on VIA. The wide lower berth is very popular. On the Canadian, a berth is often the only accommodation available as the rooms can be sold long in advance. It is also a way to enjoy Silver & Blue service on the Canadian at a more modest price.
The traditional Budd-built equipment has returned on the Montreal - Halifax Ocean after a six-month absence. Two runs a week in each direction use the stainless steel train-set so that the Renaissance equipment can be withdrawn (one set at a time) for some adjustments.
The Canadian, the Hudson Bay and the Chaleur operate Manor-series and Chateau-series sleepers all year. Each contains three sections. Originally they had four but one was replaced by a shower room in the 1990 - 1992 conversion to HEP.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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Chateau cars are typically taken off the Canadian once peak season is over. In my winter travels across Canada (Jan - April) its typically all Manor series cars. Not to say there could be exceptions! Hope to make a Febrauary trip across Canada on the Canadian again this year!
Anyone know what days is the Budd trainset operating on the Canadian and how long this will last? Perhaps this will give me an excuse to head out to Nova Scotia again!
I've even found the roomettes on the Manor style cars more roomier than the Amtrak Viewliner roomette (although room dimensions are nearly identical). Course the Manor cars on VIA are designed and only can hold one person, where the Viewliner is for double (often cramped) occupancy.
The mirrors in place and just having the one seat/couch on the Manor roomette likely plays a mind game to make the roomette seem bigger.
Posts: 337 | Registered: Jun 2003
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The Budd trainset departs Montreal on Thursdays and Sundays and departs Halifax on Wednesdays and Saturdays. According to Reservia, this trainset will be operating until the end of April. But on a trip to Halifax a few weeks ago, the service manager told me it was doubtful that it will take that long to make the "minor adjustments" to the Renaissance equipment.
Last winter we made a trip one-way on the Budd equipment. It was nice to have a drawing room (now called triple bedroom) and the Park car, but the trip was a bit of a disappointment. Firstly, the food in the traditional diner was not nearly as good as the reheated meals in the Renaissance diner. For example, on the Ren. diner we had a reheated halibut fillet which was thick, moist and tasty. On the Budd diner, the chef was given a razor-thin piece of haddock which was thickly breaded. There is no excuse for this; obviously VIA wants to prove that the reheated meals can be quite good - and indeed generally they are. The Park car lacked the first class amenities usually seen. If you wanted coffee: "$1.75, please."
The Easterly Class season is the time to go. In the shoulder season (May to late June and early Sept. to the end of Oct.) the off-peak fares are available. The surcharge for Easterly Class over Comfort Sleeper class is modest. The higher fare includes more in-room amenities, the Learning Coordinator's activities, dining car meals and use of the Park car. It is money well spent - as low as $50 extra in the peak season.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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Enjoyed my first trip on the new Easterly Class earlier this year - with the Renaissance equipment but learning coordinator in the Park Car etc. This is the only way to go if travelling all the way between Halifax and Montreal.
Surprised about the traditional diner report on the Ocean. Prior to Renaissance equipment on the line, the Ocean was on par with the Canadian level of service in the diner.
Not sure if I would travel on the Ocean without having the Park Car (only offered to Easterly class passengers during peak season). It just makes it a completely different experience. Couldn't imagine being couped up in the Renaissance sleeper for the entire route. The Renaissance Lounge Cars have more to be desired!
Posts: 337 | Registered: Jun 2003
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As a child, I travelled by Pullman berth section on Union Pacific's City of Saint Louis. Ms Trainlady and Mr HRU are both right. Both bunks in a standard berth section were substantially wider than an Amtrak lower, let alone an upper. There was more than enough space under the seat for a 4 suiter suitcase (hence, the term Pullman as applied to luggage). All that said, the berths of a standard section were only closed off to the word by way of curtains!
To start this off, here are the traditional definitions accepted amongst railfans: http://www.aaprco.com/Experience/Glossary/glossary.html This version dates from 1956. Dubin in Some Classic Trains, has a Pullman brochure dating from the 20s, which lacks the roomette and the bedroom, as they had not been developed yet.
There was an experimental enclosed section, used on the early (1935-41) Union Pacific streamliners. The ROOMETTE (traditional definition... lower berth only with facilities) quickly displaced the enclosed section.
Overall, the 1940s and 50s products had better, more comfortable seating, better and more comfortable bedding, and more headroom (particularly for the upper in a Superliner), as well as berth windows.
As to the "Double Bedroom:" The traditional double bedroom has about a 33 sq foot footprint. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/passengerobservationsleeper/sm_pos21_fp.gif It was about 7 feet wide by 4'8 1/2" plus the annext. Earlier versions (the double bedroom actually dates from the heavyweight era) were not much more than 30 sq ft in footprint.
The Pullman accommodation which matches the current Amtrak Bedroom (or deluxe bedroom) is the the Compartment. It had about 42 sq feet in footprint, the same as now. In the HW and early streamliner era, the compartment had an open hopper, this was dealt with after WWII.
The fundamental difference between the historic compartment and Amtrak's Bedroom is the shower. The only Pullman accommodations ever to have a shower were the "Master Room" available on THE TWENTIETH CENTURY LIMITED and the Broadway Limited, and the private baths of railroad business cars and/or Pullman private cars for charter.
Hope all this helps.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Thank you PullmanCo for the wonderful history lesson. All I ever knew about Pullman cars was what I saw at the movies when I was very young. In the movie "Some Like It Hot" there were train scenes. I grew up in Richmond Ca where the Pullman cars were either built or up-graded. The plant closed when I was very young.
Posts: 139 | From: myrtle creek oregon | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pullman Co. - I enjoyed your review of Pullman co history. They were truely something special in an era when Pullman Porters knew how to take care of passnegers. I always enjoyed sticking my shoes in the designated compartment and having them appear spotless in the morning.
I did not know that the National series cars were the last sections built in the U.S. I am familiar with the 6-6-4 cars ordered by the Louisville & Nashville (as well as partner C&EI). They were delivered in 1953 and I had many good trips on them. I just watched a video on the Canadian cars for the CP. They were delivered in 1956 so I guess they would be the last in North America??
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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I concur with Mr.Pullman; the UP/WAB 'National--' were the last 6-4-6 to be delivered to a US Road. The possible other candidate for that could have been the New Haven and Boston & Maine "--Beach' cars.
The only other 6-4-6, which for some reason DPM labeled as his favorites, cars that could have been in the running were 19 Canadian National 'Greenxxx'. However I do not have any ex libris reporting built dates of Canadian cars. 13 of those were reported to be in Pullman service suggesting they were used on runs, such as the Montrealer, into, or even within on the GTW, the US.
So long as we are addressing lightweight Open Section cars, how about a 4 Sec 6 Rmt 4 BR Kitchen car? UP had two such after a 1962 rebuild of the ACF cars delivered during 1950 "American General' and "American View". These were assigned to the Butte Special and I had occasion to ride such during Jan 1969 about a week before I got "riffed' from the Air Force (yes Colonel, it can happen to EM's as well).
The Porter doubled as Chef for Breakfast; pretty hard to mess up Toast with Preserves and Coffee.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The CPR sleepers built by Budd for the Canadian were delivered mainly in 1954. The remainder had to be delivered by early 1955 because The Canadian started in April of that year.
The 6-4-6 "Green" series built for CNR were built in 1954, according to the CNR Passenger Equipment manual of 1967. These were part of an order of new equipment for CN's Super Continental which entered service on the same day as The Canadian. There were 52 "E" series sleepers (4 sections, 4 bedrooms, 8 duplex roomettes) also in that order, as well as other sleepers. The "E" sleepers were similar to CP's Chateau sleepers; The Chateau sleepers had a drawing room and 3 bedrooms.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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David I stand corrected on the Canadian - I rewatched the DVD and all in sevice in 1955 - only half a century ago.
Another try for the good ol' L&N: While the Pine series 6-6-4 cars were delivered in 1953, the 4sec-4rmt-5dbr-1cpt cars for the Dixieland were delivered in time for service the winter of 1954-55. How does that compare with the National series for the last open section cars in the U.S?.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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Showers in the Master Rooms on the Crescent between Washington and Atlanta to the end of Southern operation of the train.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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A huge source is Tom Madden's www.pullmanproject.com. He has spreadsheets of cars, which include plan, lot number, date in service, and date withdrawn from Pullman lease.
The cars of UP's National series (Plan 4197, Lot 6957) were delivered between 2 November 1955 and 23 May 1956.
The L&N Pine cars were delivered between April and May of 1953.
Looking at Mr Madden's files, NATIONAL CONSULATE appears to be ther very last standard sleeping car ever built new. The only other cars in the datase which are not rebuilds, from their plan numbers, appear to be the Budd Slumbercoaches.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mr Norman: The cars you mention were from Plan 9005 (ACF built versions of the 1942 Plan 4099, Lot 6699 delivery), and were rebuilt in the UP shops to strip out that section. They were originally delivered in 1950.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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thanks Pullman Co. - I was huge fan of the Pullman co. and looking forward to checking out pullmanproject.com.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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I have to offer an opinion here. I've logged a lot of miles in Pullman-designed products, in:
duplex roomettes roomettes bedrooms compartments drawing rooms slumbercoach single rooms
I've found *every single accommodation* to be superior in design and comfort to Amtrak's Superliner and Viewliner accommodations. At the time the postwar lightweight cars were built, Pullman had been doing design specifications for 75 years, and they really had it all figured out.
The roomette was wonderful for one person -- even had a coat closet. The bedroom, with beds down, actually had floor space for an adult to dress in -- try THAT in a "roomette" on Amtrak.
I finally rode an open section in one of the CN "Green" cars, and I do agree that those were the most comfortable beds in the fleet.
I will disagree about the upper berth windows, though. As a child, I rode Florida trains frequently out of NYP, and I can only recall one car series with upper-berth windows -- PRR "Imperial" series cars (4 BR, 4 CPT, 2 DR). As children, we thought they were really cool.
As a side note, most of the "Eastern" 10-6 cars had pairs of bedrooms, one with a long couch and one with a short couch and a chair. But we would often see cars off the California Zephyr or the Santa Fe with two chairs in each bedroom. We liked that better, especially six when engaged "en suite", the four beds were all next to each other rather than two running lengthwise and two crosswise to the car.
I miss "real" sleeping cars, and I miss the Pullman company. But maybe I'm just getting old...
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Like you, between my youth and the early years of Amtrak, I've ridden:
sections roomettes bedrooms compartments slumbercoach double rooms Single Bedrooms (under the dome, ex-NP car)
Absolutely, the folks who designed Pullman cars, be they on the staff at P-S, Budd, or ACF, knew what they were doing. As you know, I have a vendetta against applying the word "roomette" to what is in fact a Double Slumbercoach space WITHOUT the toilet!!
The Bed-Lengthwise/Bed-Crosswise pairing of double bedrooms was a post WWII feature on almost all 10 roomette, 6 DBR cars. Out west, UP, ATSF, and SP all had them, certainly by way of their Budd-built products, but also from some of their P-S products.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Well, it looks like I got both Messrs. Pullman and Resor on one accomodation - a Duplex Single Room.
This was on the Broadway Limited during 1966 in Hugh Henry Brackenridge (12 Duplex 4 DblBR) Harrisburg-Chi. This was a reaccomodation compliments of The Pullman Company after my Roomette's flourescent lighting in 10-6 Catawissa Rapids resembled 'Hot-l Baltimore' (flashing). It was definitely a superior accomodation to the Roomette as you could use the 'facilities" without closing the bed.
The premium over a Roomette was 14% (Pullman rates were usually figured as a %tge premium over Lower Berth - demand pricing? WAZZAT).
A lower room definitely rode well, even if it were not the most convenient for nocturnal viewing (but don't Amtrak Bedrooms have the same fault?).
That was the only time I ever rode in such accomodation, but then how often did Air Force EM's ride the Broadway (my $$, BTW)?
Incidentally the Master Rooms in Mountain View and Tower View - the Broadway Obs cars - had showers; never got to try such out in this life.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well, I'm talking to the experts, but my best Pullman trip had to be on B&O's National Limited from Baltimore to Cincinnati in 1965. The team of Reistrup and Howes were making one last effort to revive their passenger service. As a result the wonderful 'Sun Room' Observation-Lounge cars with 2DBR-1CPT-!DR were in service again.
Since the trip was a special occasion (my brother's wedding) we sprang for the Draving Room. We felt like kings sitting in that huge room and enjoying the somewhat deserted observation section. The cars were orginally bought for the NYC's Southwest Ltd (and I believe used occasionally on the Century). Poor old B&O got them second hand but operated them in a first class manner. That was the last summer the cars operated on the train before it was consolidated with the GW (although they operated a short while on a truncated and shortened version). One was saved for the B&O museum but sadly vandals got to it.
I believe I would take that over a Sightseer Lounge any day.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by train lady: on occasion if someone were walking by at the moment they would land on your bed. Simlpy because there were no hard walls to lean on and no door to close. I had it happen more than once and it is not fun! [/QB]
I've been mulling this over, TL. I suppose I wouldn't have minded if it were Marilyn Monroe falling into my berth, as she walked by, but would not have enjoyed Tony Curtis or Jack Lemmon in the same fashion. Your comment threw me back to the Some Like It Hot days!
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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But Bob, think of the story you would have to tell your grandchildren if someone with the celebrity status of Tony Curtis or Jack Lemmon fell into your berth. From interviews I have heard, they are very interesting to people to converse with.
As for Marilyn, you'd never know if Joe DeMaggio was on the train. Then your grandchildren might have to ask how your face got broken. You have to think of the future when someone falls into your berth.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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On the other hand considering the screwy law suits today you would probably get sued for compromising their privacy because you told someone. Or the press would report it as an alcoholic incident. There are all kinds of possibilities. It happened to me when I was 10 years old and traveling alone from DC to LA. All I remember is that I was terrified and started screaming. Think where that could lead today.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by train lady: It happened to me when I was 10 years old and traveling alone from DC to LA. All I remember is that I was terrified and started screaming.
And I'll bet the Calvary came to the rescue in the form of the porter, maybe even the Pullman conductor, and probably a female passenger or two. Apologies were said, you were comforted and the incident was over. Hard to remember there was a time when doing this sort of thing (a 10 year old going cross country alone by train) was both acceptable and safe.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mr. Harris--it's 'cavalry'. Calvary is the site of a certain notorious crucifixion.
[Yes, I mess up sometimes too...]
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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Yes, Mr. Harris it is not safe today for a child to travel alone by train, But then it was. In addition to the porter in each car there was a stewardess on board who was an RN. I do remember that she checked on me periodically , took me off the train in Chicago and delivered me to an aunt who put me on the next train. She also delivered me to the parent waiting at the the other end.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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I too remember porters looking after me on my first trip alone. I was 12 and took a through sleeper on the PRR-L&N from Paoli, PA to Bowling Green, KY. Changed in Bowling Green to the Memphis (moved forward to the through coach) section. That was the trip I saw the wreck of the Dixieland shortly after it occured in Guthrie, KY. Many memories of that trip stick with me yet and probably something to do with coninuted interest in 'night trains'. No RN/stewardess on the PRR or L&N's Pan American though.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ehbowen: Mr. Harris--it's 'cavalry'. Calvary is the site of a certain notorious crucifixion.
[Yes, I mess up sometimes too...]
Thanks. duhh. I knew that. The main disconnect in my computer tends to be the one between fingers and brain.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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