Among other things, it would cost $1 billion. They predict 4-5 years for an infastructure upgrade. The "new" North Coast Hiawatha would follow the Empire Builder route to Fargo, then take the old Northern Pacific route down to central Montana. The possiblity of a daily run was also studied.
Considering the report on the possible return of the Amtrak Pioneer, with a predicted cost of 493 million, I can't figure out why the cost for the return of the NCH is going to be $1 billion? I would think the track (including the track over to Helena) should be in pretty good shape due to the Montana Rail Link. The 1 billion seems, to me, excessive.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Maybe we should have more Montanans debateing national policy.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lest we forget, there has not been a passenger train over this route in thirty years; the infrastructure to support such has been retired.
Further, the "institutional infrastructure' has also been retired. For example, does Montana Rail Link's Book of Rules even address the operation of passenger trains? Have they Operating Officers to supervise the Amtrak crews over their lines (Hose roads DO have jurisdiction over Amtrak crews).
OK, somebody beyond the die hard railfan contingent will show up to ride; but that will sure be some pricey ride in view of the public funding required even to get the service running.
While at first glance, I would be quick to place my $2 on that proverbial "snowball in hades', there is always the chance that Sen. Baucus (D-MT) will deliver to 1600 what the President wants to sign regarding Health Care. Sen Baucus has in the past been involved with railroad affairs; when the MILW shut down Lines West circa 1979, he set forth a "directed service' initiative which I guess resulted in a short 'stay of execution' for the inevitable.
Well maybe if Sen. Baucus has a passenger train "chip' to cash in, a restored Hiawatha could be a go, otherwise I think viewing by revenue passengers of the Yellowstone and Clark Fork was done for the last time thirty years ago.
Should have the Basic System, which designated one Chicago-North Pacific Coast routing, called for the Northern Pacific rather than the existing Great Northern? That could be debated until the cows come home.
Finally, Richard, required host railroad track and signalling improvements start at Adobe Page 30 - $620M of 'em.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I agree, Mr. Norman, that track and signalling improvements are expensive (does the $620 million include the obligatory Positive Train Control?). I still can't rationalize the difference in the projected cost of the Pioneer startup (493 million) vs over 1 billion for the North Coast Hiawatha. With the MRL and BNSF on the route, are there not improvements already in place along the infastructure?
The Pioneer represents around 2600 miles (depending on the route chosen if it makes a comback) while the North Coast Hiawatha is around 2300 miles. Also, the Pioneer would require a great deal of track building..especially around Boise. I don't know if Positive Train Control was figured in for the Pioneer study. I just can't see the difference..the Pioneer estimated cost is less than half the estimated cost of re-establishing the North Coast Hiawatha.
I think your link mentions a good point about arline routes arond the Rocky Mountain states and Northwestern states, in general. The point they make about how difficult it is to fly from Bismarck to Billings..a 400 plus mile trip by train but 1000 miles for the necessitated Bismarck to Denver to Billings route, by plane, I think is significant. Flying from major cities like Denver or Salt Lake City to cities in the Dakotas, Montana, and Wyoming is a leapfrog contest that is not flyer friendly.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Richard, PTC is separate - an an additional $60M; Ref Adobe Page 34.
I agree that there are inconsistencies especially when stated on a per mile basis between what the UP reported to the consultants for Salt Lake City-Portland and what BNSF/MRL need for Mpls-Seattle. I think it a very safe assumption that none of the parties concerned, Amtrak included, are very receptive to the thought of reinstating either the North Coast Hi or The Pioneer.
But either way, I sincerely hope that the LD train advocates around here will accept that there "is a bit more to it' than just starting to run the train again. The passenger train infrastructure over both these routes has been dismantled. When Former Sen. Mansfield (D-MT; deceased) dictated to Amtrak they would reinstate service over the NP, that was Summer 1971 and after a two month hiatus, the infrastructure and institutions were clearly in place.
Obviously if Sen Baucus (D-MT), should he succeed in collaboration with Sen. Snowe (R-ME), delivers to 1600 what the President wants, or at least resembling it, for Health Care reform, he will have a "chip or two" to cash in "for the folks back home". Even if I personally would like to have him find another 'chip', i.e. non-passenger rail, that is not my call to make. Who knows what Sen. Snowe will want?
North Coast Hiawatha at Deerfield IL 1974 (courtesy Mr. Ainsworth's site)
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Your picture, Mr. Norman, of the old North Coast Hiawatha dome cars got me a little "teary eyed". Same thing with the old dome cars of the Northern Pacific. About the only other thing that does it, for me, is looking at an old Heathkit catalog (1970's) and wishing that Heathkit would make a come-back and again offer various electronic kits.
By the way, are any of the old Northern Pacific sleeper dome cars still around....maybe in museums?
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I would venture to say that a return of passenger train service to either the Pioneer route or to Southern Montana is more likely to be a 'no' rather than a 'go'.
I'll suggest that part of the difference is that the Pioneer route (with the exception of accessing Boise) is still in the hands of Union Pacific and last hosted passenger trains 13 years ago. Less effort to bring the physical plant up to speed for passenger service would be required here.
However - you are correct Richard in that getting back into Boise presents a tremendous hurdle. I would suggest that what support for reinstating the Pioneer that exists in Idaho is pretty much contingent on it coming back to Boise.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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You will note there is one such in my earlier linked photo's consist. Domes and Obs; Amtrak sure went "apeo' with them during the early years.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The operative paragraph at the end of the Executive Summary:
quote:Therefore, Amtrak recommends that federal and state policymakers determine if intercity passenger rail service along the former North Coast Hiawatha route should be reintroduced and, if so, that they provide the required levels of capital and operating funding to Amtrak. Upon such a decision, Amtrak will aggressively work with Federal and state partners to restore the service.
Mr Baucus, your ball...
If this comes to life, it will be imo a political payoff to Senator Baucus for bringing home the bacon on healthcare.
My read: Amtrak is a cheap political giveaway to Beltway folks.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Can anyone provide a list of all station stops anticipated on the Hiawatha & Pioneer routes, should either be reinstated? Thanks
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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The proposed stops (and schedule) on the North Coast Hiawatha are contained in the link Mr. Norman gave us.
The stops on the Pioneer in 1992 (routed through Wyoming) west of Denver were: Greeley CO Borie WY (Cheyenne by bus) Laramie Rawlins Rock Springs Green River Evanston WY Ogden UT (Bus to Salt Lake City) Pocatello ID Shoshone (Twin Falls) Boise Nampa ID Ontario OR Baker City La Grande Pendleton Hinkle-Hermiston The Dalles Hood River Portland ....and on to Seattle with the same stops as the Starlight.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: [QB] Richard, PTC is separate - an an additional $60M; Ref Adobe Page 34.
I agree that there are inconsistencies especially when stated on a per mile basis between what the UP reported to the consultants for Salt Lake City-Portland and what BNSF/MRL need for Mpls-Seattle. I think it a very safe assumption that none of the parties concerned, Amtrak included, are very receptive to the thought of reinstating either the North Coast Hi or The Pioneer.
**************************** I also have to wonder, Mr. Norman, if Amtrak is really interested in restoring the Pioneer or North Coast Hiawatha. Here is an article from the United Rail Passenger Alliance with similar views (be sure to note the 2nd paragraph of section 1):
I think the comments about a 2nd train, from Portland to Chicago (a new "Western Star" to replace the Empire Builder leg) are interesting..section 2.. the 15th and 16th paragraphs.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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For those with a lot of time on their hands, this piece I found surfing the web has an interesting historical perspective on passenger train profit/loss issues, primarily in California and the west.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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"Lotta good stuff" in that piece you located, Mr. Twin Star, even if not directly related to Northern Pacific passenger service.
I defer to you to open a topic specifically referencing the material.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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First I read the fascinating United Rail Passenger link Richard provided above about the NCH and Pioneer. Then I just got my local Minnarp newsletter with a rant by Andrew Seldon about how LD's are not the money losers Amtrak claims, because they are not measured in terms of load factors where they outperform the NEC and corridor service (and make more money).
I found the 2nd article by googling Andrew Seldon (president of the Minnesota ARP), who was quoted as a reference at the end. He is considered an authority on passenger rail, and even got an interview for the job of Amtrak prez once (small world: I also went to Sunday school with him in the 50's.) His views echo URPA and he may even be part of it.
So in my twisted and rambling but linear mind, this NCH study brought up the well-worn issue of how we measure and evaluate LD's as a business. As a supporter of LD's, I want to believe the URPA/Seldon side. But then Mr. Norman, with his experience in the industry and dogmatic pragmatism, pops my balloon. Please Mr. Norman, now don't go telling me there is no Santa Claus.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thanks for the Pioneer stops, Twin Star. Some of it sounds like the route of the Wyoming detour I took on the Zephyr a few times. And I see it would come in on the south side , which is interesting . . . . Too bad it's a bus to Cheyenne, but I guess it wouldn't be too long a ride. Would there also be a bus to Caspar, perhaps from Rawlins, do you think?
I tried to access Mr Norman's pdf file to get the proposed stops on the Hiawatha, but the file doesn't want to come in on my computer.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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When the North Coast Hiawatha was discontinued in October 1979, and the Empire Builder was rerouted via the Cascade Tunnel route between Spokane and Seattle, Amtrak service was eliminated at 18 stations. Fifteen of these stations in southern North Dakota and Montana had been served exclusively by the North Coast Hiawatha, and the remaining three stations were on the Stampede Pass route in central Washington that the Empire Builder no longer served. The proposed route of the reinstated North Coast Hiawatha would pass through the communities in which 16 of these stations were located. It would also operate via Helena, Montana (instead of Butte and Deer Lodge, Montana, which are on the now partially out-of-service portion of the former North Coast Hiawatha route). These 17 communities, termed the “potentially reinstated stations”, are listed below.
Potentially Reinstated North Coast Hiawatha Stations Valley City, ND Jamestown, ND Bismarck, ND Mandan, ND Dickinson, ND Glendive, MT Miles City, MT Forsyth, MT Billings, MT Livingston, MT Bozeman, MT Helena,MT Missoula, MT Paradise, MT Yakima, WA Ellensburg, WA East Auburn, WA
The potentially reinstated stations are presented in this report for illustrative purposes only. Whether a reinstated North Coast Hiawatha would stop in all of these communities, or would serve other communities, has not been determined. As many of the potentially reinstated station buildings no longer exist, are used for freight railroad purposes, or have been sold or leased to private entities for non-railroad purposes (e.g., restaurants, museums, retail shops, etc.), this report also does not intend to imply that the particular station facilities formerly utilized by the North Coast Hiawatha would be used as station stops if the train is reinstated and serves the communities in which they are located.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by sojourner: I tried to access Mr Norman's pdf file to get the proposed stops on the Hiawatha, but the file doesn't want to come in on my computer.
As noted at the "change' topic, it sppears that Amtrak's website at the moment is a "work in progress".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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