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In the strand for RRRich, the issue arose about good scenery on the Cardinal only being viewable on the eastbound train--i.e., westbound you go past the best scenery at night. I was looking at the schedule to see if it could be changed to make the viewing better westbound, but the only way I can see for doing that would make for very inconvenient boarding and departing times for passengers at the busier stations. I wondered if anyone has any ideas . . . Maybe make the train Washington DC to Chicago only, or would that lose many passengers?
Also, why is the history behind calling the train the Cardinal? (It doesn't go to St Louis!) Is there another historic name that would indicate the route better?
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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If the westbound is on time then in the summer months virtually all the good scenery will be in daylight. I've done this route westbound twice now and didn't miss anything of significance.
As to the name: what is the state bird of most of the states that the train passes through?
Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Eastbound, you will get the views along the Ohio River and all of WV and VA in the daylight. Westbound, in the summer you will see the Blue Ridge Mountains in VA and most of the New River Gorge before dark, but in the morning, you are right -- all you will see is Indiana farmland and industrial Chicago suburbs.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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the state bird of Va. is the cardinal. At one time the cardinal was named the George Washington and also the James Witcomb Rliey. Not sure why all the name changes.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Cardinals are very pretty, but I still think it's a silly name. I'd prefer James Whitcomb Riley!
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Chesapeake and Ohio RR (later C&O/B&O, Chessie System, CSX) operated three trains on this route. The George Washington, that Train Lady mentions, was the nicest but on an overnight schedule Cincinnati-Washington.
There was also the Sportsman and F.F.V. The F.F.V (I believe there may have been a blue grass song with that title) was short for Fast Flying Virginian, or if you prefer, the First Families of Virginia. Courtesy of Wikipedia: "First Families of Virginia (FFV) originated with colonists from England who primarily settled at Jamestown and along the James River and other navigable waters in the Colony of Virginia during the 17th century. As there was a propensity to marry within their narrow social scope for many generations, many descendants bear surnames which became common in the growing colony."
On the C&O the F.F.V. was primarily a mail and express train but did serve as the primary overnight train between New York (PRR, NY-Washington) and White Sulphur Springs. It carried four or five sleepers for the Greenbrier and Homestead resorts. With the early morning arrival there westbound and late evening departure eastbound, it did serve the New River gorge area in daylight and arrived Cincinnati around 3pm.
Any of those names would be better than the somewhat prosaic 'Cardinal'. The other name Amtrak used in its earlier operations on this route, was the James Whitcomb Riley. In earlier days this was a daylight all coach stainless steel streamliner with observation/lounge operating from Cincinnati to Chicago on the New York Central's Big Four route. It was one of the two trains I saw in Cincinnati that was pulled by a magnificent NYC steam engine. Talk about a good looking train!
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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But of course we should note that The Cardinal does "not exactly" fly and for that matter, not "as the crow flies". Cardinal's 27hrs Chi to NY makes the Erie RR #8 Atlantic Express (23'30") look like an Acela.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Thanks for the additional info. I must say, even though I don't much care for Cardinal, I do prefer it to Sportsman!!!!
In its meaning "First Families of Virginia," F.F.V. is a pretty well-known phrase, akin to Boston Brahmin. I believe there was even a cookie with that name at one time. And there is aan amusing song in the musical 1776 sung by the character playing Richard Henry Lee, where he says he is is F.F.V., from the First Fami-Lee, in the First Colon-ee, Virginia. (It's full of silly puns "Lee" puns with -ly adverbs . . . . )
I did not know it was a train too, that is cool! Still, I think an all-Virginia train would be more appropriate for that.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sojourner, I agree about the song but I do think the one John Adams sings about congress is really hysterical. Your opinion?
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Perhaps Amtrak will have a renaming contest when/if they do a performance upgrade as they've done on the Empire Builder and Starlight.
I would still like to see the Cardinal and Capitol swap equipment. A Superliner lounge on this route would be terrific. And as a viewliner train the Capitol could add through cars from the Pennsylvanian at Pittsburgh.yes the Cardinal would have to stop at Washington). While 'River Runner' would be an appropriate name, that's been taken.
I see that ITunes lists at least 9 versions of the song FFV, aka the Wreck of the FFV. But that name would not exactly resonate with today's travelers. I think the 'Chesapeake' would be a good name for at least the eastbound train to reflect its eastern destination and railroad heritage.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Yes (off topic), I like the Adams song, too--esp his apt remark about Congress! But my favorite song is probably the one where they fob off the writing of the Declaration on Jefferson. I'm not sure what it's called, but it manages to rhyme "I don't know a participle from a predicate" with "I am just a simple cobbler from Connecticut."
Musicwise, these songs may not be the greatest, but in context they're all very charming and witty IMO.
Is the Wreck of the FFV the same tune as the Wreck of the Old 97, Palmland?
I hope they don't get rid of the Superliner on the Cap Ltd--I love that observation car when you come to places like Harpers Ferry and Martinsburg. I do wish the Viewliners had a car with more windows.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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No, sojourner - definitely a different tune. Some of the lyrics:
Well along come the FFV the swiftest on the line Running long the C&O road 20 min behind **** Aw, but off of the road she darted into the rocks she crashed Well the engine she laid upsdie down and Georgie's breast was smashed Well his head lay against the firebox door and the flames were rolling high Well I'm proud to be born for an engineer on the C&O road to die
Gotta love those upbeat old country songs.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hahahah . . . very good. They sure to get into the gritty grimy details in these crash songs, don't they? I'll have to look for the song!
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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For the signalling fans out there (maybe just me then) a fair chunk of the route between Chicago (exc) and Indy (exc) (ex-Monon?) is (or at least was) DTC - no signals, dark territory, basically permits to proceed verbally transmitted and repeated back via radio. Unlike CTC, if you are equipped with a scanner then you have a pretty good idea of what other trains are around you, what authorities you have etc. Great fun!
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I love the songs from 1776: "Here a Lee, there a Lee, ...." and the one about Congress. Just the other day I was thinking how appropriate it is today. I saw 1776 at the movie theater in Williamsburg sometime near July 4th of the year it was released...within hours of watching the Newport News section of the James Whitcomb Riley call at the quaint colonial station. I have a copy of the movie and need to dust it off again. As for the train, I prefer Cardinal to J.W. Riley but thought George Washington was a better name though Thomas Jefferson would have been a good one, too.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2003
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I actually saw 1776 as a Broadway show (which it was before the film), seems to me that was in 1976, for the bicentennial!
I couldn't watch that Adams show with Paul Giametti because the only John Adams is the guy from St Elsewhere. . .
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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The guy from St. Elsewhere was William Daniels. IMO the part was written for him ( it wasn't,of course) but it surely seemed to be. I read that the show was written in 1972 by a history teacher to foster knowledge and mostly interest in American history.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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When the Cardinal was a Superliner train, not only did it have more passenger cars than at present, but the Superliners also offered more capacity. The Cardinal also usually ran with a full train set of Superliner sleepers, diner, sightseer lounge, and coaches. Course its origination and termination point was at Washington DC.
A few years ago (now), rumors were circulating at Amtrak that perhaps if the Cardinal was returned to a Superliner train, offering a Sightseer Lounge Car, it could appeal more to tour groups and people looking for more of a sightseeing tour. Now the philosophy may be a little flawed on that in Amtrak's overall "mission" but the action was aimed at increasing ridership. So I applaud that part of it.
I know many have said that the extension of the Cardinal to NYC has brought more passengers to the Cardinal. But I've yet to see a comparison of patronage at "highs" and "lows" (number of passengers and financials) as to when it ran with Superliner equipment versus the current single level equipment (which offers less capacity and not even a full service diner - just a diner lite).
The Cardinal, in my opinion, is operating at an all-time financial and ridership low and could do better - even with just a second Viewliner sleeper!
The schedule of the Cardinal also changed from when it was a Superliner train and became a single level train. For example, it left Washington DC earlier heading westbound - so this did provide some more daylight viewing during the more scenic parts of the trip. So that's another thing to consider.
I for one would like to see the Cardinal operating with Superliner equipment under a different schedule (but with a connecting train from the NEC), and the Capitol Limited retaining its Superliner equipment. Then take the Cardinal equipment (perhaps just two Amfleet coaches, an Amfleet Diner Lite and Viewliners and tack it on to the rear of the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh and operate it as almost two trains in one between Chicago and Pittsburgh (similiar to how VIA operates the Ocean and Chaleur to Matepedia prior to the split/combination of the two trains etc.)
The NEC runs with a variety of trains that I think could connect with the Cardinal to do a "cross the platform change" at Washington DC if the Cardinal reverted back to Superliner equipment.
A challenge for Amtrak would be to get enough Superliner cars assembled to re-establish the Cardinal as a Superliner train. With various Superliners coming out of the shops, or scheduled to come out of the shops, I don't see why this can't come to be. Often Superliner Sightseer Cars are substituting for coaches on the Pacific Surfliner route, in addition to regular Superliner coaches. Change the days of operation for the Sunset Limited, and you've freed up a Superliner train set.
If Amtrak wanted to make this change, it could. I think it would be a positive change to put some sort of better "sightseeing observation car" on the route of the Cardinal.
As a single level train, the Cardinal is operated to NYC out of convenience for Amtrak - and perhaps passengers - as all single level trains originate or terminate at Sunnyside Yard in New York City.
On my trips aboard the Cardinal - I just don't see any reason to operate this train past Washington DC if it is just going to have a lone Viewliner and three Amfleet II coaches. Lot of turnover at Washington DC with few passengers traveling between Washington DC and NYP on the Cardinal.
Posts: 337 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Interesting ideas, JP; thanks for your thoughts.
What was that other train that used to go in Kentucky--Kentucky Cardinal? Did it go to Lexington?
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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