I was unaware that the Starlight, or any LD for that matter, had a designated Quiet Car.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Not to defend the miscreant in any way, but what's wrong with "disrespected"?
Posted by RR4me (Member # 6052) on :
Henry, while it is in the dictionary, it still feels wrong to me. I can act in a disrespectful manner, I can show you disrespect, and I can act with disrepect. But saying that I disrespected you doesn't look proper to me (and I have no problem with saying I respected you). Just a small personal problem of mine, I guess . Kind of like saying I maliced you, rather than acted with malice toward you. And to keep it TrainWeb Forum worthy, that's my train of thought!
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
RR the term seems to have started in the inner city and is very prevelent and well understood among african americans. ( I hate that phrase. Why can't we all be just Americans?)
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Even a print 2001 dictionary I have recognized it as a verb.
To use disrespect as a transitive verb appears to be quite "mainstream" English nowadays, even if such was first used by rap lyricists .
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Language is ever-changing, but I do have my betes noires. One of them is the unnecessary use of French.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
That's the first I've ever heard of the Starlight having a Quiet Car. I think that might be an error....I'm pretty sure they don't have one on that train. (unless it's something new that was just added).
People like that are why I don't ride in coach any more. I can picture EXACTLy what it was like for those passengers who had to put up with her.
Posted by cubzo (Member # 4700) on :
I will be on the Starlight tomorrow and I will ask about the quiet car but I don't think that there is one.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
I don't think there is a quiet car, but I noticed that on the Starlight and Cascades (and too few other trains), the announcements in coach included one to use cellphones respectfully, avoid using them in the dining car, and go downstairs if you wanted to use them in coach.
With regard to disresepcted--the slang term usually used is less often the full word but rather just to "dis." Turning nouns into verbs and vice versa has been going on since Shakespeare's day; in fact, the Bard himself is credited with doing it to introduce many new coinages. Nevertheless, I'm not sure I like the sound of it either. One of my bete noires (to use Henry Frenchy talk) is the use of impact as a verb. It's been going on very several decades, but it always grates on my nerves when I hear it.
Posted by RR4me (Member # 6052) on :
Cubzo, don't ask too loudly Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Language is ever-changing, but I do have my betes noires. One of them is the unnecessary use of French.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by cubzo: I will be on the Starlight tomorrow and I will ask about the quiet car but I don't think that there is one.
Since they didn't specifically identify the train in the article, I believe the media may have inserted reference to a quiet car for dramatic effect.
Posted by amtrak92 (Member # 14343) on :
We also have to remember that most members of the Media haven't stepped foot on a LD train. So they just assume that it has a quiet car, they don't bother to read the timetable at all.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
So to get kicked off a train with no 'quiet car', you have to be REALLY, REALLY not quiet.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
I'm just off the Starlight (#11 that left PDX instead of SEA yesterday -- more on that later) and there were several announcements about no cell phone usage in the Diner or coaches. It was suggested that people who wanted to use their phones should go to the lower level of their coach or to the Sightseer Lounge. I didn't go beyond the Parlour Car so don't know what the compliance was like.
Frank in sunny and warm SBA
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by sbalax: there were several announcements about no cell phone usage in the Diner or coaches
Pet peeve of mine: here the announcements are still made in the quiet cars, so just after every station stop you get a long diatribe of announcements like "please do not use mobile phones and please keep noise to a minimum" - in the quiet car!
Posted by MDRR (Member # 2992) on :
Geoff- that is no different than on Amtrak. In fact, currently on the Acela, we have an automated announcement regarding info available on Twitter regarding major delays that plays every 15 minutes over PA system driving everyone crazy...
Posted by mr williams (Member # 1928) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geoff Mayo: Pet peeve of mine: here the announcements are still made in the quiet cars, so just after every station stop you get a long diatribe of announcements like "please do not use mobile phones and please keep noise to a minimum" - in the quiet car! [/QB]
Worst of all is when the buffet car attendant reads virtually the entire menu.....
Thinking back, though, I remember writing in my trip report on the Sunset Limited of how, as we headed west from Jacksonville, I could hear the guy in the next compartment talking to his son in New Orleans, and wondering why he didn't use a telephone!
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
I'm grinning ear to ear.
Posted by mpaulshore (Member # 3785) on :
train lady's notion that the verb "to disrespect" "seems to have started in the inner city"--and Gilbert B Norman's notion that the verb "was first used by rap lyricists"--and sojourner's notion that the full form of the verb, and not just its shortening "to dis", qualifies as "slang"--are all wrong. The online Oxford English Dictionary's first example of a use of "to disrespect" is from 1614, followed by examples from 1633, 1683, 1706, 1852, and 1885; in addition, there are examples of the derived adjective "disrespected" from 1640, 1791, and 1876, and an example of the derived noun "(a) disrespecting (of something)" from 1631.
Furthermore, the notion of RR4me, Gilbert B Norman, and sojourner that "to disrespect" was first formed from the noun "disrespect" may well be wrong, seeing as the online OED's first known use of that noun is from 1631--seventeen years later than the first known use of the verb! The OED's entry for the noun even explicitly acknowledges that the noun may have been derived from the verb.
It's true that "to disrespect" may have been slightly uncommon in the past, and that it owes its surge in popularity in recent years largely to rap artists and African-Americans. There's even some possibility that the late-twentieth-century popularizing of the word was not based on any exposure to earlier uses of it, but represents a recoinage of it--just as some earlier uses, particularly from the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, may represent recoinages as well. But frankly, there's nothing wrong with any of that. It's simply an inherent characteristic of English--just as it's an inherent characteristic, to a greater or lesser degree, of most other human languages as well--that words and word categories have a certain fluidity; and there's no reason to object to new formations as long as they're logical. (As for illogical new formations, sometimes they get ridiculed out of existence within a short time, and sometimes they get past that barrier and become lodged in the language for decades or centuries.)
The moral of all this? Check the facts before you pontificate! Especially when the subject is a much-neglected, much-misunderstood field like linguistics.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Well look who, after a 26 month hiatus, decided to "honor" us with his presence.....
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Dear Mr M Paul Shore, I did not need to check my facts because my wording did not say what you say it says. Reread my post. Moreover, I did not post to pontificate; I posted cuz I thought it was interesting and would lead to more fun discussion. If my post sounded like pontificating, I do apologize--to everyone else on the board (but not to you)!
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Mr. Shore, perhaps you should look up the definition of pontificate before you lecture us.If you don't understand what I mean just read your posting.There is a way of correcting misconceptions without being obnoxious. We don't deliberately provide wrong facts though perhaps we should to keep you busy.
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Just when things were getting a little too quiet, polite and civilized around here . . .
Posted by RR4me (Member # 6052) on :
Fact is, I still don't like the word!
Posted by Railroad Bob (Member # 3508) on :
I saw the Youtube showing the police extraction of the ultra-chatty passenger; she left without much of a fuss. The only disrespect I see in this whole case is talking nonstop from Oakland to Salem on a cell phone in a public railroad passenger car-- that was disrespect to her fellow passengers.
I don't even like to talk for 30 seconds on my mobile phone, if others are in earshot-- but that's just me. Generally I like to TEXT, but only if I'm not driving, since that's unsafe and illegal, etc.
RR Bob out.
Posted by smitty195 (Member # 5102) on :
I'll bet the passengers wish she would have been booted off before Salem. For those who have ridden the Starlight, can you imagine someone talking on the phone from Sacramento all the way to Salem?? That's outrageous. In the middle of the night, people are trying to sleep. And yes, I'm stereotyping, but I'm sure she did not have a quiet, dainty little voice.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
quote:Originally posted by smitty195: but I'm sure she did not have a quiet, dainty little voice.
IF she had, the whole incident would not have happened and her chattiness would be unknown to the rest of the world.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
OED??? Someone is quoting my favorite dictionary? Nice...
Why is it my favorite? It lists "irregardless" as a word! Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Oh, it's fun to be a Wikipedant. Here's what Wiktionary has to say, in part, about "irregardless":
"The approach taken by lexicographers when documenting a word's uses and limitations can be prescriptive or descriptive. The method used with irregardless is overwhelmingly prescriptive. Much of the criticism comes from the double negative pairing of the prefix (ir-) and suffix (-less), which stands in contrast to the negative polarity exhibited by most standard varieties of English. Critics also use the argument that irregardless is not, or should not be, a word at all because it lacks the antecedents of a "bona fide nonstandard word." A counterexample is provided in ain't, which has an "ancient genealogy," at which scholars have not leveled such criticisms.[1]"
Ain't that cool?
When I was a nightside copy editor at the old Chicago Daily News we used to get into red-faced shouting matches, some of which came close to fisticuffs, about "nonstandard" words. I miss those days.
One of the occasionally disputed terms was "the Amtrak," as in "I took the Amtrak to Chicago." The pro-usage guys said it was fine but the others dismissed it as dialectical.
Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :
That is kool Henry, but I love it for its ability to send the English professors and their wannabes into apoplectic fits when they hear or read "irregardless".
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
Then there is the phrase "I could care less" meaning "I couldn't care less". But that begs the question.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Perhaps "I could care less" is elliptical for "I could care less but I don't"?
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
In Texas and parts of the South I have often heard people say "I flew the Delta" or "I flew the Continental". For whatever reason, that doesn't bother me but "graduated High School" and "stand on line" do.
Frank in sunny and warm SBA
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
"Stand on line" is simply a regional expression, Frank--I believe it usually indicates someone is from NYC. It doesn't bother me any more than hearing someone from Britain say "queue up" or "stand in the queue."
One regional expression that does sometimes irritate me, though, is the (southern, I think?) use of "I sure don't" in answer to a question or request. I get irritated because when I hear the "sure," I assume the person is going to say "I sure do," but then they don't, so it's disappointing!
As for "graduated high school," I believe "graduated from high school" also used to be considered incorrect, since it is technically the school that does the graduating. In other words, you were supposed to say "I was graduated from high school." But the usage of the word has changed over time, and apparently keeps changing. I don't know if "graduated" without the "from" is regional or not, but I certainly hear it often.
Regarding use vs nonuse of articles, as in "the Amtrak," I recall finding it odd in Britain that people say "in hospital" instead of "in the hospital" and "in university" instead of "in the university" (e.g., I am a student in university") Odd that I found it odd, when I do say "in college"!
Another Anglicism I found most odd was hearing mathematics shortened to maths instead of math!
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
"Taking the Concorde" rather than "taking Concorde" was a big annoyance for the bigwigs at BA for some reason - an insult perhaps?!
Queuing is actually more correct (first-in, first-served) than a line which infers no ordering. It's one of the few things in computer programming where we don't have an Americanism (color/colour, initialization/initialisation etc) but have an English Queue.
Can't say I've ever thought that "in University" is a problem! Though "at University" is probably more common. Along the same lines as "in jail" or "in school" - or, as you say, "in college"! I think saying "in *the* hospital" you're implying a specific named hospital rather than conveying a general indication of a type of place.
Something some Americans do which I find hard to read is saying "Fred and Jack and Jill and Bob went to the moon" instead of "Fred, Jack, Jill, and Bob went to the moon". Use of the final comma is another debate in itself.
Language is a funny thing. But apostrophe abu'se is unforgivable!
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
Now to get peeves about acronyms off our chests . . . but not in an acrymonious way.
Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Now to get peeves about acronyms off our chests . . . but not in an acrymonious way.
TLAs are OTT?
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
On of my favorites was either on this site or another forum. On the topic of current 110 mph corridor upgrades not truly being HSR, someone suggested PDQR for pretty darn quick rail. (Now we are even back to train-related.)
Posted by Henry Kisor (Member # 4776) on :
How about "Never say STFU to TSA at ORD"?
Posted by RR4me (Member # 6052) on :
Geoff, your comment about "at university" as opposed to "in university" brought a small private chuckle. My daughter took advantage of the University of California's education abroad program in her junior (third) year of college. She went to Copenhagen, but I also purchased a Eurail pass. Most of her time was spent traveling to Austria, France, Spain, Germany and Portugal. I can't call it a mistake to have given her the pass, as I'm sure she gained some informal education with all that travel, but she sure wasn't "in" university! (And if the movie "Taken" had been seen prior to her stint, I would have worried myself into an early grave.)
Posted by The Chief (Member # 2172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike Smith: OED??? Someone is quoting my favorite dictionary? Nice...
Why is it my favorite? It lists "irregardless" as a word!
Thanks Smitty for the tip. After removing irregardless from my lexicon a couple of years ago, I shall research and reevaluate its usage.
Henry I'll check your Wiki source but I'm cautious about those entries. Like you, I, too, have toiled on major dailies' copy desks and recount those discussions,,,
What I think is this is yet another "I'm-the-most-important-person-in-the-world syndrome." Society, courtesy and manners continue to disintegrate.
Coast Starlight does not have a quiet car (yet) per se, but like many LD trains has the announcements which vary by crew member. I speculate that this incident may prompt Amtrak to bolster, publicize, and implement stricter cell phone rules. And that's a good thing.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)