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I am in complete agreement with the following. Please note the comments, near the end, about the importance of food services on the Capitol Corridors:
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No argument here. Understanding the concept presented there, however, requires an ability known as "three dimensional thinking," wherein one must coordinate ideas from a variety of angles to understand the picture.
The practice in Washington DC these days is to employ "two dimensional thinking" which tends to be linear in its aproach, e.g. B always follows A no matter what word you are trying to spell.
I've gotten into some contentious debates on other boards with several two dimensional thinkers, and it is extremely difficult to explain to them how the larger picture affects the smaller ones. They just come back at you with the same linear arguments and declare that it can't be any other way.
Thus even well laid out three dimensional arguments such as these, by themselves, aren't likely to have much impact on the current political process, sad to say.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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That newsletter is intended primarily for NARP members, and probably isn't directed at two dimensional thinkers or other low-watt bulbs. Hopefully articles like that one will indeed help to clear things up, having positive influence on efforts to improve Amtrak.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Well, aren't the "three dimensional thinkers" around here just full of themselves?
I wish I were special like a "3DT." If someone dared disagree with me, I'd just play my trump card: "You're just so linear, 2D dude." Ah, life would be so much simpler.
Come to think of it, I think I will declare myself a 3D Thinker. After all, the only qualifying prerequisite seems to be to just say you are. I can do that!
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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Well, I'm finding just being 3D is not all that it's cracked up to be.
This afternoon I announced to my wife my new dimensional thinking status. I tried to explain to her that this weekend's Honey-Do List was much too linear for me (how more linear can you get than mowing the lawn?).
Mrs. Zephyr considered all this, and then communicated her "1D" feelings to me.
The swelling has started coming down, and the bruise is healing nicely. But I'm a little concerned about how long it will take for the pitch of my voice to lower to normal.
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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Well, for an old, two-dimensional mind I think the article hit the nail on the head.
I used to live in Northern Montana. One of my most pleasurable memories, on the old Burlington Northern passsenger train headed east, was having a tasty, hot breakfast in the dining car while admiring the scenery of lower Glacier Park. I even remember how good the coffee tasted. (Passenger trains used to have absolutely great coffee. I once asked the attendant what brand of coffee they used..they said it was "Farmers" coffee. I could never find "Farmers" in the supermarket..maybe they only sold coffee to commercial outlets?).
Another fond memory...having a freshly-prepared breakfast on the Coast Starlight, and admiring the scenery from Klamath Falls to Eugene. The new "dinner lite" breakfast has ruined the whole invoked image. Maybe they could at least have a Starbucks available in the lounge car.
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Interesting argument bout have they taken into account amtraks food competition with in the stations themselves. Take the metroliners and Acela, if your traveling early will the rider eat before getting on the train? will there be options like subway, dunkin donuts or perhaps a full service restraunt in or near the station that a rider would chose over on board food service. What are the percentages of riders actually eating amtrak food compared to the amount brought in. Are the prices of the train food alot more then what can be purchaced at the station? I don't think we'll ever return to the days of Pullman and Harvey as far as dining on the train.
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by yukon11: Well, for an old, two-dimensional mind I think the article hit the nail on the head.
I even remember how good the coffee tasted. (Passenger trains used to have absolutely great coffee. I once asked the attendant what brand of coffee they used..they said it was "Farmers" coffee. I could never find "Farmers" in the supermarket..maybe they only sold coffee to commercial outlets?
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Well, I for one hope they NEVER return to the original Harvey house method of dining. The thought of having to get off the train rush through a meal in one of their restaurants and then get back on the train is not an appealing thought. It would be like riding the Greyhound bus. In the 1970s I took my 3 children from DC to LA by bus. We all hated the idea of having to get off and eat at some crummy restaurant on their schedule. We took the train home.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Train Lady you obviously have never experienced a Fred Harvey meal or splendid service so I will briefly .. set the table.
Stopping the train and having passengers get off to eat ceased more than 100 years ago with the advent of the dining car. But when detraining for meals was the only choice Fred Harvey and the Santa Fe made certain that everyone had time to enjoy a meal prepared with the freshest ingrediants and served upon linen table cloths and with linen napkins in a very polite and professional manner.
Fred Harvey operated the Santa Fe dining cars and at the same time operated the many hotels along the routes, which themselves were considered a destination, such as the El Tovar at the Grand Canyon.
The Fred Harvey reputation is still talked about and I am certain that a sophisticated and experienced traveler like yourself would also boast about it if you had had the experience.
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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And to add to Mr. Norman's interesting link, The Harvey Girls: Women Who Opened the West by Lesley Poling-Kempes is a good read on Mr. Harvey's Houses of Good Repute.
The mention of Pullman and Harvey operating diners of yore begs the question: is contracting out diner and/or lounge services a viable option today?
I know, I can hear the jeers and howls already from the 3D Thinkers. But let me tell you a story that may apply here.
In the early 80's, a newly-elected President (I dare not mention his name, for that would really get the 3DT'ers frothing at the mouth) cut (or at least did not increase) the budget of most Federal Agencies. Remember that? And I was working for one of those agencies at the time, namely the U.S. Forest Service. And, oh my, the sky was falling. The sky was falling. Really, really falling.
The USFS's reaction was to immediately close all campgrounds. They did this, in my sub-3DT-level opinion, more for political and pr reasons than out of budgetary necessity. There were many other near-worthless programs where cuts could have (and should have) easily been made. But recreation was most visible to the public, so the "Closed" signs went up at the CG gates. It was like Smokey mooning the campers.
Meanwhile, amongst the doom and gloom of the budget "crisis," a lower level employee at a remote ranger station was birthing a thought. Why not see if we can get someone else to operate the campgrounds, and pay us to do it? He dealt with the water-cooler cynics, and kept pushing this crazy idea. Finally he prevailed, and was granted authority to advertise for bids on a few sites. And it worked!
His idea was successful, and eventually adopted by most (if not all) Forests in the Calif region.
When I was transferred a few years later to this Forest, one of my job responsibilities involved being a member of a team which reviewed these bids on CG contracts. The process surprised me. I had always associated contract awards to "lowest/highest bidder." But this process was quite different. Bidders were required to itemize improvements they would make to the campground, and things they would offer to improve the users' experience. All at their expense. They would also state how much they would pay the government for the right to operate the site (but this was the least important factor). And if they won the contract, performance had to be guaranteed by bond.
We had plenty of bidders. Recreation went from a money pit to about budget neutral. And the users (the campers) were the biggest beneficiaries (wow, we can take a hot shower now!).
Could something like this work in some areas of Amtrak OBS, like the diner and/or lounge? Not a "lowest/highest bidder" contest, but an award to the bidder who offers the best package to enhance the passengers' comfort, safety, and experience (as well as putting a few bucks in Amtrak's coffers)?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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"The USFS's reaction was to immediately close all campgrounds. They did this, in my sub-3DT-level opinion, more for political and pr reasons than out of budgetary necessity. There were many other near-worthless programs where cuts could have (and should have) easily been made. But recreation was most visible to the public, so the "Closed" signs went up at the CG gates. It was like Smokey mooning the public"
I think I agree with you. That is the standard M.O for government buracracy's when some one mess with their money the first thing they do is cut what the public see's and then blames the highest public official they can. School Boards do that all the time "Oh dear think of the poor children!" Last week I heard a comment from a "education consultant" who one of his first comments about his trouble getting a project thru he mentioned one name and bemoaned that he couldn't get enough funding. When he did that I knew he didn't have a plan b. S.O.P for to many people in Washington and a good many state capitols.
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Zephyr, I think your idea has merit. I have actually wondered the same thing.
I am skeptical of claims that privatizing entire trains would work, due to the right of access issue. Amtrak, I believe, is needed as the coordinating agency and for train crews qualified to operate on freight railroad tracks. But I have on occason floated the idea that everything behind the locomotives could be put out to bid, subject to basic service standards.
By the way, I never meant to imply that anyone on this board is a "2DT." I was referring primarily to bureaucrats, policitians, and those who follow them blindly. We've got a pretty enlightened bunch here.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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Well, Mr. Toy, I hereby voluntarily state I'm 2 or below DT. See above the reaction I got from my wife on the 3DT announcement. Ain't going there again. By the way, my limp is better. Voice almost back to normal.
Back to camping. The initial FS criticism of the campground contracting idea was: Who on earth would bid on something like that?
It turned out there were a lot of bids from unusual sources. Ski resorts, for example, put in bids. They had key staff they had to lay off after ski season. Operating campgrounds was a way to offer these people year-round employment. We also received bids from individuals, clubs, families, and businesses (when I worked there, REI got a bid to rent out a very remote, abandoned fire lookout as a sort of an unusual "vacation rental"). Also, businesses were formed that specialized in this area (as an aside, a very large percentage of the fire crews and equipment working on wildland fires now are contract).
Of course, the other big hurdle was the employees' concerns about losing their jobs. But I know of no one who did. They were reassigned. Many became contracting officers and inspectors. Or they changed departments. Or they had to transfer. Most landed squarely on their feet (everyone I knew). This may not be the case in contracting out Amtrak services. But, as heartless as it may sound, Amtrak's mission is not providing job protection for life. It's mission is to provide transportation (I believe).
I tend to agree with the "engine back" thought (i.e., Amtrak owns and operates the equipment). But I'd like to see Amtrak try out contracting all or some onboard services. Maybe pick one LD train. Get input from the public, employees, advocacy groups, and so on. Develop good specs, and give it a shot. If it works, expand it. (Imagine impassioned debates on this forum over whether the EB, OBS'ed by GrandLuxe, is better than the CS, brought to you by Toy Trains, LLC).
If it fails, Amtrak's purse would be protected by performance bonds. And if it's obvious there's little hope of making it work, then I'll just shush-up and re-direct my energies to that Honey-Do List (still think mowing lawns is too linear for me). But feeling OK, because Amtrak tried something new, rather than the same-old, same-old.
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by zephyr: Well, aren't the "three dimensional thinkers" around here just full of themselves?
I wish I were special like a "3DT." If someone dared disagree with me, I'd just play my trump card: "You're just so linear, 2D dude."
Zephyr, I apologize for any misunderstanding that my post may have caused. I am sure there are others on this site who are smarter than I am, and was not saying that 1) anyone here is dumb, or 2)that anyone who has a different opinion is of low intelligence.
My intention is to say that if NARP or anyone else puts forth a complex argument, they shouldn't worry unduly because some people won't understand it. Their target audience was probably policy makers and others of high intelligence, and rightly so. In my opinion people who can't comprehend such arguments shouldn't be put in positions of high responsibility. If you want to argue otherwise please do so, that's what we are here for. But let's focus on the topic.
As for privatization, my view is that the current system "isn't broken, so don't fix it." Amtrak already has a means in place for providing its services that works just fine. I am happy paying for Amtrak and its government workers.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 4020North: In my opinion people who can't comprehend such arguments shouldn't be put in positions of high responsibility.
But, alas, they get elected to Congress and impose unrealistic profit goals for Amtrak's food service. That's why Amtrak is now planning to spend millions converting lounges and diners to dual use cars to meet those goals, with potentially counterproductive results. If these guys in positions of high responsibility were able to comprehend the NARP piece this wouldn't be happening.
Getting back to Zephyr's point, I seem to recall that when I first proposed private bidders for on-board services I was told that railroad unions would put up a fight, and thus the idea was squashed as unlikely to happen. I hadn't considered the labor union angle, but that doesn't discourage me. In business and in politics everything is negotiable.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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Yes, Mr. China I have in my lifetime eaten a Harvey meal on the Santa Fe. My point is I doubt that the pea brains who are trying to derail Amtrak will ever go back to that quality meal. I would not be surprised to find them going back to the Harvey houses. If you look at the pictures of the Harvey Houses "lunch rooms" you will note that they are not set up with tables and cloths but are rather a bar type arrangement. They look very much like the old drug store or dime store lunch counters used to be. I repeat this does not appeal to me.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Congratulations Ms train lady on having a Harvey meal, there are not that many of us still around.
The Harvey Houses did indeed have lunch counters but they also had dining rooms and I have eaten in them as well as the dining cars.The La Fonda in Santa Fe, the El Tovar at the Grand Canyon and the Alvarado at Albuquerque have each added to my waist line by way of a fine .. sit at the table .. meal. The lunch counters also served the same menu items but were intended for those who wanted a quicker or smaller meal, and I have also done that. There are many photos and post card depictions of dining rooms at all of the Harvey hotels.
However, the salient point is that with the advent of dining cars, and I hasten to add that I was not present at the time, trains did not stop for passengers to detrain for a meal. The only exception was the troop trains in WW II which could not be accomodated with sufficient dining cars, but those trains were not on a "schedule" like regular passemger service.
Regarding suggestions above which talk about privitizing the AMTRAK meal service in the dining cars, I think this has a significant potential and I would hope it receives due consideration.
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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At Chicago Union Station, the Gold Lion Restaurant was the area off the Southwest corner of the Great Hall (it was always the headhouse in railroad days) and lasy used as a temporary Met Lounge during '04.
As you walk Eastward from the Great Hall "To Trains" on the left where there is still a restaurant that was the Harvey Lunch Room that served at counters and plain tables the "regular folk'. It also served during the '70's, when operated by a concern named Faber Enterprises, us "lowerling" railroad employees working in CUS. Gold Lion is where "WE" went when the boss was paying.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Actually I have eaten at the El Tovar and didn't think about it being connected with Harvey
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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How many dimensions were involved when the discussion got to bagpipes and drum therapy? Has drum therapy been suggested to Mrs. Zephyr as an alternative to violence? Is there any hope I can get off the watch list?
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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To answer your silly questions, Mr. Rocket (you realize very few will know what we're talking about):
1. Sub-1D (like, maybe sub-conscious and squiggly linear);
2. Great idea (hon, guess what I got you for your birthday?); and
3. Hopeless.
Hey, I got a question for you (or jump ball, if anyone else has input). Have you ever been to the Minnesota Transportation Musuem or the Superior Transportation Musuem (in Duluth). Worth a visit?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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Zephyr, I have never been a real museum fan so my knowledge of these is limited.
Minnesota Transportation Museum (MTM) has run local excursions using steam power, which I took my kids (twins) on when they were very little. They loved it. They also loved Amtrak journeys. With their limited vocabulary, when I mentioned trainride, they would always ask if we were taking the black train (steam) or the blue train (Amtrak).
MTM has a few attractions around the Twin Cities listed at www.mtmuseum.org including a replica of the Twin Star Rocket (excuse the shameless self promotion) built by a guy who lived near where I grew up.
I think MTM also owns the rails a local dinner train runs on, who also has a site www.minnesotazephyr.com
I went to the Duluth museum about 25 years ago when Amtrak ran the North Star to Duluth. The museum is at the beautiful depot Amtrak used to use and it is a local tourist attraction. They have a lot of neat old railcars and the usual history stuff. A few years back I got as close as the parking ramp next door and forgot my bike was on my roof carrier pulling into the ramp. I was truly a candidate for drum therapy after that one.
Duluth is kind of an interesting rail town. There are many routes coming down the steep slope to the port from the Mesabe iron range to the north. It was also the original starting point for the 2nd Transcontinental railroad, Northern Pacific. There is an excursion train that runs up the North Shore of Lake Superior which is one of the most scenic areas in the US.
But I have never been to any of the large rail museums elsewhere, so I can't really say how these rate. I would like to see Sacramento's some time.
Local public transportation here is embarrasing. Hertz has a desk in the MSP Amtrak depot and cars onsite, pretty good for a one train town.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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In addition to what Twin Star Rocket has typed, here is the web site for the Lake Superior Transportation Museum: Lake Superior Railroad Museum
I agree it is quite the collection of railroad paraphanalia.
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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