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Just appeared on Yahoo News: April 3, 2007: A specially modified V150 French TGV high-speed train, set a new world rail speed record at 574.8 km/h (357.1 mph) in France's Champagne region at Bezannes, eastern France, about 125 miles east of Paris on the yet to be opened new line between Paris and Strasbourg.
Two electric locos with three unit articulated double deck coach set between them. 25,000 hp, overhead power voltage increased from normal 25,000 to 31,000, larger diameter wheels on the locos.
Technicians on the train had "French excellence" emblazoned on the backs of their T-shirts. Soure: Reuters and others.
Good Morning, America ! Let's wake up and do something.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Fantasy: Let's see, if New York Empire Service Service was similar to French TGV service, I wonder how long it would take to travel from NYP to Rochester,N Y where I would visit relatives. Of course I would probably start my journey from Trenton. Maybe 4 hours (not traveling at the speed record)? Driving would be 6+ hours because I make 2 or more stops. Family on Long Island, who travel to Rochester frequently, experience longer driving times due to bridge crossings where the traffic comes to a crawl frequently. They do have easy access to the Long Island RR straight into NYP station if they wish to use Amtrak. But wouldn't consider as it is now. Jet Blue is the other alternative for them. Air travel time is usually 1hr. BUT getting to the airport,security,ground delays, etc. makes the travel time 3+ hrs. easily. Oh yes,WAKE UP America!
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Part of the reason I love train travel is I can see the countryside. High speed is fine for those who have to "get there" in a hurry. I therefore opt for a choice of high speed trains and the kind we now have. I do not want to see a blur. BTW did you all see the notice yesterday by a Mr. Castelveter, spokesman for the air transport Assoc. which is the major trade group for airlines? There has been so much dissatifaction by airline passengers over lost luggage, hours spent sitting on the tarmac, days in the airports, delayed and late flights that CONGRESS NEEDS TO APPROPRIATE MORE MONEY to up the system. Then the airlines can solve the problems. RIGHT !!!. oH YES SPIRIT IS GOING TO CHARGE $5 PER BaG TO CHECK BAGGAge IF YOU BOOK ON LINE. OTHERWISE IT WILL BE $10. Can you imagine the uproar if Amtrak did similar?
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Train Lady: Paying to check your bags....They will pay it to the airlines instead of taking the train because "the train takes too long". But maybe Congress NEEDS TO APPROPRIATE MORE MONEY to up the system for Amtrak so it can provide baggage cars on more trains and provide more stations with checked baggage,in turn Amtrak would charge the passenger for the appropriations by Congress. But I understand your point with high speed rail. First, I don't know if I would be very comfortable watching the landscape "speed by" at 200+m.p.h. It is not noticeable in a plane. But on the ground it is very noticeable and uncomfortable for me. I love train travel to see the countryside. But the person only interested in getting from point A to point B is not. So the regional high speed intercity is for them. There were times I wished we had those speeding trains with dedicated track instead of flying. I'm sure there will also be the regular runs at a good speed(but down to Earth) as they also have in Europe. Heck! I traveled on the Acela from Boston to N.Y.C. and I was nervous when it kicked up a little speed on that stretch somewhere in Massachusetts/Rhode Island.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The fastest I have ever moved on the ground (not counting the initial landing on a few airplanes) is 135 mph. That was on both the Swedish X2000 and the German ICE trains when they were tested on the NEC in the early 1990's. Wow....what nice trains.
I did not have any problem viewing the scenery at that speed (nor have I on the Acela)....mainly because that 135 felt like about 80 in a conventional train.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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How are they gonna protect all that track from the terrorists?? Wouldn't this make a very attractive target? We can't even keep drunks off the track.
Posts: 326 | From: San Antonio Texas USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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City of Miami: I'm guessing that the track is well protected with security cameras,etc. Also, it must be fenced off?
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Most of the stories about the record-breaking train failed to mention that the new high-speed line from Paris to Germany (the one the record was set on) cost US$6.6 billion, and was approved by the French parliament despite official forecasts that it would never make a profit.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Very few if any do. They are built for the same reason that good roads have been built. It was determined that the overall advantage to the society was worth more than the cost. That is why when you read about public works projects they talk about the cost/benefit ratio. In actuality it is expressed benefit divided by cost. We just have not figured out that this concept should be applied to railroads in the US. There is a lot of benefit to hauling people by rail instead of in the air or on the road that cannot be retreived from the fares or freight charges.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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That's a good point, George. The Channel Tunnel (between England and France) isn't likely to make a "profit", as such, for quite some time. But as it's cut a large chunk of the London-Paris and London-Brussels flights, think how much less carbon emmissions there are! Same for Paris-Brussels flights. What price can you put on the environment?
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I saw the news video of the train (only had three cars) whooshing under an overpass. It was fast. But I can't help but wonder if maybe its too fast for ground transportation. A California Assemblywoman was aboard, and she described the acceleration as being very similar to an airplane taking off. She seemed to enjoy it, but folks who don't like to fly would probably avoid a 350 mph train as well.
On the other hand, if fares were reasonable it would offer real competition to transcon air travel.
As for me, though, I'd be happy with a 125 mph train that ran on time and under budget.
On a related note, the Governator is trying to push high speed rail off the 2008 ballot, as he successfully did for 2004 and 2006.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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Unfortunately it does not appear that the US or any of the subdivision of it are willing to spend the money for either the 125 mph or the 300+ mph, or for that matter even for a reliable 79 mph. I would suspect that if the relatively small money required to do additional sidings, second mains, and simply bring the track conditions up to a good quality overall for a consistent 79 mph were done you could see a huge increase in ridership on long, medium, and short distance trains, IF we have the equipment to stuff the people in that show up to ride.
While it seems that the California HSR is living the Perils of Pauline, it appears that the extension of the Caltrain service to the Transbay Terminal is going to happen, and that will include provision for the HSR downtown San Francisco station. And,this is building less than two miles of line at a cost of around $2 billion.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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George: "less than two miles of line at a cost of around $2 billion". WOW! Is that the norm? Or is it a difficult engineering task? I'm trying to remember where the Transbay Terminal is. Is it on the embarcadero where the ferry building is?
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I think we've all managed to lose sight of what actually happened here: this was a demonstration run. It had nothing to do with normal service. The standard TGV will top out at 186 miles per hour except on speed-restricted corners, such as the ones along the coasline in the south of France. However, they do not have anywhere near the problem of people not knowing how to conduct themselves properly. First of all, they have no road crossings, and where they do (local lines) they have full-width crossing barriers and a driving culture that knows how to use them. Simply enough, never assume that the crossing protection equipment is working. I loved the video of the test runs. I want to do that! Some of the highly-zoomed shots don't do it justice, but then the view switched to the shot out the rear, and you can see the cantenary poles (150 m apart) going by at one every three-fourths of a second.
On the other hand, Amtrak has yet to be embraced by the majority of the populace, and they never get enough money to do a halfway decent job, yet somehow they manage to do it anyway. I'm happy for Amtrak's safety record and hope that the good statistics will be with them for a long time. However, it's going to take a serious change in how Americans think to get Amtrak into contention in many areas. I know climate change has become a blip on the radar screen in the past six or eight months, but it's going to take a lot more than that to convice me that people in this country care enough about more than themselves to actually change their habits. Habits like switching on your V-8 truck with a loud exhaust and letting it idle right outside my bedroom window for half an hour until my alarm clock goes off (time to get up...) so you don't have to drive around with an interior temperature of less than sixty-five degrees, God forbid. Habits like taking the Canyonero less than a quarter mile to get milk from the store or get your mail. How does the song lyric go? "We'll take a limousine because it costs more." Habits like moving in or renovating city centers instead of pushing farther and farther every year into ex-farmland, which necessitates more pavement for more huge stores spread out father so you don't have to drive more than eighteen seconds to get your drive-through junkie juice and donuts in the middle of your increasingly longer commute every morning. We as a populace simply don't get it. Everyone's gearing up to start whining again about how "expensive" gasoline is. In the past three years, when I shoot back, "when was the last time you rode your bicycle more than ten miles or to work and back" I have always gotten the attitude-laced blank stare, crickets chirping audibly in the background. So, since people are only making enough political noise to keep Amtrak basically going from year to year, enough to almost balance out the airline lobby, the trains keep running. Safely, again, for the most part. But, as soon as you hint at a Susnet East restoration or a Desert Wind/Pioneer/International/daily Crescent and Cardinal frequencies, the money just isn't there. When I get on a train, everyone seems to be focused on how late the train is or how rough the ride is or how the public address system is inoperative. Yet again, it boils down to getting what you pay for.
20th, your points about HSR on the Empire Corridor are well-put, but you still have a corridor that will have numerous geometric speed restrictions on it. Think Lyons to Clyde, or Big Nose/Little Nose, or the Seneca River bridge and Montezuma "floating" bridge. I would love to see it happen too, but for the time being all I want to see is reliable service on well-maintained infrastructure that people feel like running. Reliable service, like 85-90 percent on time with realistic schedules. Well-maintained as in no more broken rails because rail is so expensive they'd rather run it until it shatters beneath the weight of a moving train. Well-maintained as in some sort of programmatic replacement of wear items. As in the switches move when the dispatcher tells them to. As in the switch heaters actually work. As in evaluating the character of the track when it's loaded, not just taking gauge measurements with no train around. You should read the 1994 New York high-speed rail report. It has recommendations on which curves to realign to cut down on speed restrictions. In short, to get HSR up and running on the existing tracks here, you need to change the block signal spacings, add interlockings (ones that are graded for higher speed), realign some curves, and actually start prosecuting people who drive around crossing gates, putting themselves, the people aboard the trains, and residents of nearby communities all at risk because their coked-out, sky-high, or just plain ignorant brains can't wait for a train to pass. In order for changes to actually happen, you have to start by making them yourselves. And while many people on this forum are actually doing things like that, I will be racing thousands of other people tomorrow when I'm in an Amfleet I coach and they're on the Thruway. I shouldn't say it too loudly, but I'm going to be more comfortable than they are, even whent the heat is stuck on and some of the bathrooms don't work.
(I'm headed back for the holiday weekend, and to retrieve my bicycle so I can start riding to work once the weather warms again.) While Amtrak has their problems, I'm always willing to work with them to improve the system the best that I can. I don't care if the bowl is just thick enough that my fork only splits through the plastic toward the end of the salad. It's better than airline "food." In short, work the solution, not the problem, and with a spot of good weather and an Amtrak-friendly Congress, the wheels have finally stopped rolling backward.
See you onboard! I want 82073 again!
Posts: 391 | From: Schenectady | Registered: Jan 2002
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The "less than 2 miles" is entirely within the city of San Francisco, is entirely underground, is for the most part 4 tracks, includes two 90 degree turns, passes under a major building, includes a station for both Caltrain and the High Speed line. In short it is about as complex a piece of railroad as you could have.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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George: Thank you. That's what I suspected. Just as when the TGV system was built it included new rail lines to accommodate the high speed and more direct routing. Amtrak 207: The Empire Corridor would need a new rail line or parts of one for high speed. It would take years of debate, blah blah, etc. before that happens because of many reasons which you stated. The bottom line is a change of thinking which needs to be strongly encouraged by leaders who have the guts to do it and beat back the lobbyists. AND YES we will be taxed or surcharged. Get over it America. Unfortunately, we are so lacking in that area. It is certainly not going to happen in my lifetime. But 207 I certainly agree with what so much of what you have said.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I'd recommend pausing it, go and make a cup of (iced) tea, and then playing it once it's fully downloaded. The download is not terribly fast - unlike the train, which is FAST! 150m in one second.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Most of the stories about the record-breaking train failed to mention that the new high-speed line from Paris to Germany (the one the record was set on) cost US$6.6 billion, and was approved by the French parliament despite official forecasts that it would never make a profit.
I'd recommend pausing it, go and make a cup of (iced) tea, and then playing it once it's fully downloaded. The download is not terribly fast - unlike the train, which is FAST! 150m in one second.
That article could be summed up in two words: Sour Grapes.
You can bet if this speed run had been done in Germany they would be singing a completely different song.
Despite what is in the article, you can bet that this trainset was instrumented to the maximum. After all, all these guys with "French Excellence" on their shirts were not there to joyride. Remember, at the present time when we get to speeds above 350 km/h, we are in Terra Ingonito and a major function of these speed runs is to shed some light in this zone of the unknown.
I have always thought that one of the last things I would ever be doing would be acting as an apologist for the French, but in this case I am.
Some of the stuff in the article, which at this point I have only skimmed, are downright silly.
1. Of course you do your testing with proptotypes. It would be bad engineering to do otherwise. That is one of the main thing prototypes are for.
2. Crosswind considerations are a factor in any train design, so what's the point here? There are steady wind and gusty wind conditions that are factors in both train design and operating rules. All these trains discussed in the article are heavier than the Shinkansen trains, and Japan (and Taiwan) are subject to typhoons, unlike France and Germany.
3. The tunnel size statement is just silly. If the tunnels are too small for the design speed of the railroad, that is bad design, pure and simple. The Japanese Shinkansen tunnels are somewhat small, about 64 square meters for two tracks, but recall that their original design was for 125 mph, which at the time was regarded as being on the cutting edge of technology. Now they are running 50% faster. For a new railroad, if you want to be able to run 400 km/h or faster, you design the tunnels for the aerodynamic conditions at that speed, plus some conservative overage.
As said in the beginning, the article is a sour grapes whine mostly on the basis of, we should be getting the praise, not them.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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George, I do not necessarily agree with the contentions stated in the news items that I post, and I hope you will keep that in mind.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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My comment on the article was on its contents, not on you for posting it. In fact, having dealt with the people on both sides of this issue for quite a few years, the viewpoint expressed was not surprising. I was only trying to point out some of the irrationalities in it for those who have not experienced the willingness of either of the two parties involved to disparage the work of the other.
If you have ever read Gulliver's travels and remember that Lilliput and that other country, who's name I can't think of right now, going to war over which end of an egg to open, you will grasp the silliness of the carping that exists between the two countries involved on matters railroad, and a lot of other things as well. They are living proof that using the same system of measurements does not work for commonality in much of anything else.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Perhaps the snarkiest remark about the super-TGV came from a British radio host who said it would enable the French "to retreat from the invading Germans faster than ever before." Oooh!
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Well yeah, but... Our roads! Our roads are so much better than theirs! We have roads! That actually enables us to get in the Escapade to go get the mail in total comfort instead of getting that dreaded exercise stuff- that stuff will kill you!
(above remarks made very much tongue-in-cheek)
Posts: 391 | From: Schenectady | Registered: Jan 2002
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I've ridden on both the TGV in France (1998) and the Shinkansen in Japan (2003-2006). Both were impressive, but the speed is a bit disconcerting. I think the TGV was faster, but the Shinkansen was a much more enjoyable ride.
For anyone who really enjoys trains, Japan is like a train wonder land. I spent more than 5 years living there and the trains are immaculate. When they say trains are on time, they are usally arriving at the posted time +/- 10 seconds. No kidding!
Japan even has such a large number of train enthusiasts that they have numerous magazines devoted to train photography, and vacation package tours that involve trips on numerous steam engines.
If nothing else the Japanese are fanatical and meticulous about preservation, maintenance, and cleanliness. It truly needs to be seen to be appreciated.
If you've ever considered visiting Japan, go for it. An amazingly exotic country with nearly all the comforts of the West, and then a whole bunch more that are better! When it comes down to it, what more can you ask for than good service, well maintained equipment, on time arrivals, and people who take their jobs seriously.
quote:Originally posted by TinCanSailor: If you've ever considered visiting Japan, go for it. An amazingly exotic country with nearly all the comforts of the West, and then a whole bunch more that are better! When it comes down to it, what more can you ask for than good service, well maintained equipment, on time arrivals, and people who take their jobs seriously.
-Allon
If you do, there is a rail pass available to foreign tourists. US$250 for one week coach riding, and US$350 for "Green Car" which is the first class / business class seating. The day you first use it is Day 1, so if you get in late in the day do not use it until the next day. Sinply buy tickets for whatever you do that evening.
There is a national schedule book which is about the thickness of a 1950's Official Guide. However it is in Japanese only. That is not as bad as it sounds, as you have a national map in the front few pages showing all lines. The numbers next to the lines are the pages on which you find the schedules. Get an English or bilingual map and sit down and figure it out. It can be done. We spent a week traveling, mostly on Hokkaido and Honshu with no more than one day ahead planning using the Lonely Planet guide book for Japan, the railway schedule book, and the travel service offices that exist in most railway stations of any size. It is a railroad oriented country. There are nice but not lavish hotels at or adjacent to every railway station, possibly except Tokyo - we spent no nights there. I think we got in a taxi about twice. Generally we took trains, subways, and city buses.
However, a warning: We may have found this easier than a lot of other people. We have lived, at that time, 14 years in Taiwan, and I spent two years of that working in Hong Kong, so are used to things Asian in general, and I have learned to recognize a lot of the simpler Chinese characters, many of which are also used in Japanese writing.
Be polite, be patient, be tolerant of things done differently and you will probably have no trouble. Understand that it is their country and they do things their way. Figure out what it is and things can really go smoothly.
Most foreigners that have trouble in Japan or Taiwan have made the trouble for themselves, frequently by wanting to have it the American or European way. (Don't let anybody kid you. There are a lot of tourists / expat residents from Europe that can out-obnoxious the worst of Americans.)
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I'll second the Japan Rail Pass! It's a great bargain especially if you plan to use the Shinkansen. Obviously the more you travel the better the bargain it is. Usually one round trip on the Shinkansen and it pays for itself.
It's in English, and all you have to do is enter the desired start and end points. You can get a good Railway map in English at most large train stations.
posted
Haven't dug into the link yet, but looks like a great source of information. You just got to love the Japanese - English: The first sentences on the page titled "At the beginning," which is an explanation of how to use the service:
"Thank you for making it use HYPERDIA-timetable. Hitachi Information Systems,Ltd starts the new service of information on the Internet which provides a transfer and a timetable guidance of Japanese domestic aviation, railroad and bus(a part),from the viewpoint of trial."
It takes a little getting used to, but if you deal with it a lot it is also easy to start writing that way. Most Asian languages do not appear to use articles, so figuring out normal usage for "a" and "the" can be very difficult for people who's native language is Japanese, Chinese or Korean. Pronouns have no gender, so "he" and "she" can appear randomly.
Back to trains: This statement gives you a hint of how pervasive railroad service is:
"The outline of the service:
The Japanese whole area is covered in the range of the service. (The number of the stations : about 10,000 stations, The number of the trains : about 50,000 trains)"
In other words, service from everywhere to everywhere many times per day.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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