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Due to my father-in-law’s unexpected hospitalization, I had an opportunity to make a trip on Amtrak’s Silver Star and Piedmont earlier this week. Early Saturday morning we began by driving my wife and pre-school daughter from Western North Carolina to the Orlando area. I would need to return to work Wednesday so I would be returning to North Carolina alone. The Amtrak fare with roomette was actually substantially cheaper than booking a one-way plane ticket less than seven days out so we traveled separately to Charlotte where we dropped my vehicle at the station and picked up my pre-paid tickets.
Monday afternoon, October 15, my wife drove me the 15 minutes over to the Amtrak station in Winter Park. We were there for #92’s scheduled departure time of 4:56pm even though Julie had cautioned us to expect the train about 10 minutes late. Given the park across the tracks, Winter Park is easily one of the most inviting places to catch a train anywhere in the United States. Particularly from mid-October to mid-April when the Florida temperatures are balmy and coats or at least sweaters and sweat shirts are required for comfort outdoors in the Southern Appalachians.
At about 5:05pm we could hear my train approaching from the south end of town. Today’s Silver Star consisted of two locomotives hauling a baggage car, two Viewliner sleepers, a Heritage fleet diner, the ubiquitous Amcafe, and three Amfleet II coaches. I was actually surprised to see two locomotives for such a short, shoulder-season train, but this was a good sign…….protection from lost time in case one of the locomotives failed en route. I will also go on record as saying I really wish that Amtrak would provide longer trains. I think they could fill an additional sleeper and a couple of more coaches most of the year on the Florida trains and the Crescent……at least north of Atlanta.
I climbed aboard, turned left, and found my west-facing roomette in the 9211 car…..the first revenue sleeper on the train. It turns out that my room was BETWEEN two roomettes occupied by Amtrak crew members. This goes back to the bare-bones skeletal fleet issue again. I had no problem trying to sleep between crew members BUT if Amtrak still operated dormitory cars for the crew, those are rooms that could be sold to revenue passengers. I wonder if my room, purchased just four days in advance, would have also been occupied by a crew member had I not bought the room?
The room itself was typical for a Viewliner roomette these days. Some obvious wear and tear……..the curtain didn’t seem to quite completely block out light from the corridor (and I forgot my duct tape!), the Velcro didn’t quite completely work, one of the reading lights had no bulb in it, and there was some paint wear and rust on the undercarriage. The door had to be jiggled just so to actually lock and for my second Viewliner ride this year I ended up with my head oriented forward. I prefer to sleep feet first and do aboard Superliner sleepers BUT I also prefer not to wedge my head into the narrower space just inches from the commode either. I think I would actually prefer a couple of communal toilets down the corridor for roomette passengers to be honest.
My car attendant, Leon, was experienced and savvy in determining how frequently his passengers would want to see him. He did this by introducing himself and asking each new passenger whether they had traveled in a Viewliner sleeper before. He would briefly describe what the various buttons did and ask if we had any other questions about the room itself. He then talked about the ice and coffee section and offered a dinner reservation. In my case I took a 5:45pm reservation (the other choice remaining was 7:30 and I feared they would be running out of things by then.) and asked only that Leon let my bed down at 9:00pm and to make sure I was awake 30 minutes outside of Raleigh (or 30 minutes outside Cary IF the train were more than an hour late departing Southern Pines.) Leon was always congenial and usually available (he announced when he would be taking meal breaks and where to find him otherwise) if a passenger needed him. Big thumbs up for Leon.
The Heritage fleet diners continue to look rattier and continue to soldier on more than fifty years after first coming down the line. I have noticed that after years of experiments and patchwork to keep them going that no two of them are the same. This one had only booth seating without the wasted space of the tiny (and never-used) lunch counter section. The tables were wider than the last diner I ate in and thus a little uncomfortable for someone my size…….6’4” and I could certainly lose 35 pounds and be better for it. Oddly, I’ve sat at Heritage fleet tables that were both more comfortable and less comfortable……and it isn’t wide fluctuations in my girth…….it’s different table width. I don’t have this issue on the Superliner diners where the tables are not quite as wide and the booth sizes are uniform from one car to the next.
There has been talk that with the lighter fare dining service that older Amfleet cars may be reconditioned into diners so that the Heritage fleet diners may be retired. I’d prefer new diners of the Viewliner prototype BUT I think I wouldn’t mind Amfleet diners IF they go with narrower tables or, better yet, tables with chairs which actually pull back from the table as on VIA Rail Canada’s Heritage fleet diners.
The food itself, honestly, has not taken the hit I feared it would when they simplified the on-board food prep. I do miss a steak at dinner and will likely cash in Guest Reward Points for a ride on the Empire Builder soon for the purpose of having steak on the train but, frankly, I’ve had some pretty bad meals out of full diners over the years too. I will say that what we’re getting in the diner now though is way overpriced and if I were traveling coach I would settle for a microwaved burger and chips from the lounge car instead of the sit-down dinner. I think other people feel the same way as my 5:45pm reservation came and I found just a half-dozen other patrons in the diner. I actually was alone at a table until just a couple of minutes before my meal, the beef ragout ($19 +) with mashed potatoes and carrots (as opposed to broccoli) arrived from the kitchen. The food was warm and tender and helped by adding salt. The crew was not overly outgoing and I had to ask for both silverware and the salad. Both were provided immediately without any sign of ‘attitude’ from the wait staff. The mission was accomplished, no one snarled……but then October northbound from Florida is not a heavy travel period…..and I returned to my room satisfied.
For those of you who keep an eye on such things, the Country-Fried Steak was the evening special. It and the stone ground pizza seemed to be the only dinner choices which were picked over and left not completely eaten by other diner patrons.
Back in my room I made a couple of calls on my cell phone and watched the swamps and palm trees give way to dust (with some swampiness still) and pine trees. After dark I switched over to reading the book I had packed for the trip until Leon came to put my bed down.
I find sleeping in the Viewliner roomettes very difficult. Part of it is trip excitement and the subconscious fear of missing something grand in the night. It’s mostly a combination of things, however. These cars are much lighter than a Superliner and they bounce about the track more. It’s a much rougher and noisier ride. On the Crescent the trip through Virginia is mountainous and curvy and you get a lot of motion from reverse curves during the night. On the Silver Star the CSX ‘S’ line north from Savannah to Cary, NC has been neglected somewhat and it is now a much rougher and slower ride than it was when I first rode it more than 30 years ago. The train’s schedule has you on the roughest sections right when you should be having your deepest sleep too.
So…….I went to bed shortly after passing into Georgia. I was still wide awake at Savannah, drifted off and missed Denmark, SC. Awoke for Columbia, SC but missed Camden. I stirred in time to see Hamlet’s lovingly restored gem of a train station, missed Southern Pines, but awoke as we rolled through Sanford, NC which is about halfway between Southern Pines and Raleigh. I dozed again until Leon rapped on my door at 5:10am and announced that we were due to arrive on-time in Raleigh at 5:40am.
An on-time arrival! Wow. Thanks to schedule padding we had made-up our tardiness by Jacksonville and CSX managed to keep us on-time to Savannah. Northward from there on the old Seaboard main there is very little freight traffic remaining and we rolled through the night unopposed. I have been a vocal critic of how poorly CSX handles its traffic congestion and it’s still rough between Richmond and Rocky Mount, VA. However, I can honestly say that they seem to be doing a better job in recent weeks. They seem to be trying to do a better job in getting Amtrak over the road in a more timely fashion…..at least down here on the ‘Silver Service’ routes. Delays do still occur but most are in the 60-120 minute variety…….not the 150-250 type I experienced a couple of years ago. Credit awarded where credit is due CSX.
The Raleigh Amtrak Station is interesting. It’s a brick colonial style building which was originally built some years ago (1920’s maybe) by the Southern Railway. It became redundant and was turned into a seafood restaurant when the Southern Railway discontinued passenger train service (a Greensboro – Goldsboro day turn) in 1964. At Amtrak’s inception in 1971, trains used the Seaboard station about 8 – 10 blocks north. The Seaboard station looked surprisingly similar to the Southern building but was larger and had a lunch counter which went belly-up shortly after Amtrak began operations with just half the number of passenger trains the Seaboard was still offering in 1971. When CSX abandoned parts of the ‘S’ line north of Henderson, NC in the early 80’s, Amtrak rerouted the Silver Star to Selma on former Southern Railway rails and moved into the former Southern Railway station……..a rare instance of a restaurant becoming a train station! As traffic has grown, the former Southern station has seen some renovation work which is mostly tasteful although a bit more modern than the original structure. A covered unloading area has been enclosed to become a first-class lounge…..the only one in the south other than New Orleans…..and part of the platform area has been enclosed with lot’s of glass and a long bench to increase capacity for indoor waiting. These are short-term fixes though. It would be difficult for this station to handle the additional passengers that even one additional passenger train would bring to town.
Amtrak train #73, the Piedmont for Charlotte, is due out at 7:05am. Amtrak does not guarantee the connection from train #92 and will not ticket it if asked. I circumvented the system by making two separate reservations and being prepared to take my chances. I also knew that I could still connect from a two hour late Silver Star by transferring at Cary instead……a move possible if one does not have checked luggage. Once 92 departed for points north (by leaving the station in a southeasterly direction the 28 miles to Selma), the Raleigh ticket agent made an announcement that anyone who had just arrived holding tickets to depart later that day on the Carolinian could exchange their tickets without penalty and travel on the earlier Piedmont. This was a nice touch and is something I hope they do on a regular basis whenever #92 does make the connection.
Today’s Piedmont backed into the station at about 6:45am and we were allowed to board as soon as the train came to a stop. The consist was one locomotive, a Heritage fleet lounge car, a Heritage coach, and a Heritage combine. This equipment is owned by the North Carolina DOT and is unique to the Piedmont. Much of it was new to the Kansas City Southern Railroad in the mid 1960’s and is in better condition than most pre-Amtrak era equipment still rolling. The combine is part coach (about 36 seats I counted) and part baggage. The Piedmont will handle checked baggage at Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, and Charlotte and it will also handle bicycles on a rack in the baggage section. The cyclist does pay a $5.00 surcharge and must reserve the space in advance, however.
We left on-time at 7:05am and I was riding in the middle car, a former KCS coach fresh back from its most recent refurbishing (it’s second since NCDOT got the car in 1994) and enjoyed the new clean carpet and the new upholstery on the seats. I most enjoyed the HUGE glass windows bigger than anything on any other eastern Amtrak train. By the time we left Durham shortly after 8am we were about 75% full which is not bad for a Tuesday morning on this nice little train which operates with no guaranteed connection and isn’t quite fast enough to be a ‘real’ commuter operation.
Food service on the Piedmont is unique too. Originally the DOT contracted the service out to a catering vendor (like the guys who serve sandwiches at lunch at construction sites) and the food was decent. Biscuits out in the morning run, BBQ sandwiches on the return. The first vendor went bankrupt and their replacement learned that there was not enough profit working with the NCDOT. For seven or eight years now there has been no person ‘manning’ the café to sell snacks. HOWEVER, the car is stocked with coffee, juices, sodas, and prepackaged chips and cinnamon buns at either end of the run. Passengers are invited to the lounge car for one complimentary snack and a beverage (two beverages if you’re having coffee) during your trip. The service is on the honor system and seems to be working pretty well. Not what it was but still something unique to North Carolina’s state supported Piedmont.
The ride was smooth and relatively fast and our arrival in Charlotte was on-time. The only significant things to note are these: The NCDOT has invested a great deal of money and towards track and signal improvements along this route. The tracks are actually state-owned and leased to Norfolk Southern for operation……a lease arrangement which predates Norfolk Southern itself going back more than 100 years now. The ride, while not Northeast Corridor fast, regularly sails along at 79mph……this is really significant between Cary and Greensboro as this segment had been unsignalled and limited to 59mph until just a few years ago.
(Insert - I see in another post that this edition of #20 had been delayed by striking a car near Greer, SC......the train looked to be just slightly more than an hour late when it hit the car.)
The other note is that while CSX has been much improved in terms of timekeeping, Norfolk Southern has not done as well with the Crescent over the last year or two. I don’t regularly go looking for the northbound Crescent but I have encountered it in North Carolina in the daylight a couple of times this year. (In daylight in North Carolina is not good for this train.) Our Charlotte bound Piedmont encountered the northbound Crescent on the outskirts of Kannapolis Tuesday morning. It was about 7 hours and 15 minutes late. Consist was one locomotive, baggage car, two Viewliners, diner, Amcafe, and four Amcoaches. Why, I wondered, does the Silver Star rate two locomotives for an eight car train yet the Crescent only one for a nine car train?
So…….that’s my snapshot on the state of things these days. It was a pleasant trip and I would not hesitate to do it again……under happier circumstances.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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As always, I enjoyed your report. Glad things are looking up on this route. On my last trip on the Star we were 12 hours late from Jax to Camden. I can't believe you didn't have Leon wake you up to see Camden! We keep working with the city to restore the station, but overcoming inertia (and more important things like water from the Catawba river basin) is very hard.
For what it's worth, a very raifan type rumor is circulating locally that Amtrak is thinking again about routing the Star via Charlotte and NS to Columbia. I'd hate to lose it, but I'm sure it would help ridership and would take advantage of all the track work NC has done. Actually a routing on NS all the way from DC to Greensboro for daylight service would be the best.
Hope your father-in-law is doing ok.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hi Palmland & Zephyr......thanks for your replies,
My father-in-law has been diagnosed with lung cancer. No idea what his 'time' is and they won't know until they see how he reacts to the first round of chemotherapy which is coming just any day now. (Could be 5 weeks.....could be 5 years.) My wife wanted to spend some quality time with him before the chemo started and that's the reason for such a quick trip.
As for rerouting the Silver Star - the idea of moving through Charlotte is a good one and I would like to see that if we get a third Florida train again. That's in addition to the existing Palmetto, not instead of.
Given the North Carolina monies which have renovated both the Hamlet and Southern Pines stations plus built an 'S' line specific platform for the Silver Star in Cary, I'd think that North Carolina would object strongly to any plan which eliminates passenger service to Southern Pines and Hamlet......and presumably Camden.
Of course what I would really like to see is a passenger train providing a through sleeper from Florida to Asheville, NC. Run it as a section of the Silver Star to Columbia and, with the Saluda Mountain line out-of-service, then to Charlotte, Salisbury, and Asheville. THAT would be a train I would use several times a year.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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A reincarnation of the Skyland Special would be good. The Southern ran it into the 50's - an overnight train with a sleeper from Asheville to Jax (via Saluda/Columbia/Savannah-on SRR line to Hardeeville, now abandoned-ACL-Jax).
Wouldn't it be great to ride that now.
Sorry about your father-in-law. Hope he has lots of good years.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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First, Mr. Presley, I am indeed sorry to learn of your Father's medical condition; thoughts and prayers for the "best outcome'.
You are fortunate that rail travel represented the most expedient means to respond to the Family Emergency. In my case, to respond to an Emergency in Greenwich CT, I could expect and would be severely criticized if I were to respond by any means other than air travel. With some families, it is a case of "appearances count'.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone - I wasn't trying to publicize my father-in-laws' health per se......I just couldn't think of another way to demonstrate that it was important that we pile into the car and head for Florida on a day's notice......another option significantly cheaper than flying without having purchased advance tickets.
Palmland, nice memory on Southern's 'Skyland Special'. While it would be nice to have such a train via it's original Saluda Mountain route, I'd accept some reasonable alternative!
Mr. Norman, rail proved to be an effective mode for getting me home from Florida by myself. The 'quick response' was actually the family drive to the Orlando area in the first place. There may have been questions had we opted to try taking the train down.
I do agree that having rail as a legitimate option for getting home to North Carolina was fortunate and something that is simply not available to citizens in most parts of the country. This harkens back to predictions in the late 60's that had Amtrak not come into being, SCL's New York - Florida streamliners would likely have become the last surviving intercity passenger trains. This is because the market is there, the distance of the trip is 'just right', and I envision Hell as being somewhat like operating a vehicle on I-95 for eternity.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David, I do hope the chemo will be effective and once over will put him back on the road to health. Please keep us posted even if it isn't the Amtrak thread. As you know we have developed a friendship on this forum and as such we are all interested.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Thanks for the trip report. Two items to note, the space in the sleepers for the crew is blocked in advance from sale and is not impacted by rooms not sold during the trip.
Also the 7 hour late Crescent that you saw does operate with 2 engines. This particular train had to set off the lead engine due to damage from striking the car.
Posts: 332 | From: Long Island, NY USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MDRR: Thanks for the trip report. Two items to note, the space in the sleepers for the crew is blocked in advance from sale and is not impacted by rooms not sold during the trip.
Also the 7 hour late Crescent that you saw does operate with 2 engines. This particular train had to set off the lead engine due to damage from striking the car.
Thanks MDRR - I had written the trip report separately and then cut and pasted it into my post before I noticed the thread about the Crescent striking a car. I've since watched the posted video from the police car and noted that there were two units on the Crescent at the time of impact.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David -- thanks again for another great trip report!!! I had thought about meeting you in Winter Park on Monday before you caught the Star, after I read your first post Monday AM, but we were out of town all last weekend, and I wasn't able to fit it into my schedule conveniently. One of these days, though, I WILL drop by the Winter Park station to meet you and saw Howdy!!!
Hope your father-in-law is doing OK -- glad to hear that the Star actually operates reasonably close to schedule now and then!!!!!!
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Thought of you being in the area but the entire trip was planned (and Amtrak tickets purchased)about 10:30 Friday evening......just 10 hours before we actually started driving.
FWIW - we will be making periodic trips to the Winter Park area for some time to come. In addition to her parents, my wife's younger sister and her family are still in that area. Moreover, my brother-in-law and his family are moving to Melbourne from Texas next month courtesy of an Air Force transfer.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Great report, David, and so nicely written too! Thank you for it.
Just so you know, the new "Diner Lite" on the Lakeshore Ltd does NOT include a salad! (or a roll) It's no great loss, since they were not very good since the meals were cut back a few years ago, but it does seem kinda tacky not to have a roll even.
I personally have no particular difficulty sleeping on Viewliner roomettes as opposed to those on the Superliners. In fact, one thing I really like about Viewliner roomettes is that the have the private commode. In some ways, especially on just a one-night overnight trip, having my own toilet is even more important to me than having my own bed.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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I miss the size and comfort of the berths in the old Heritage Fleet roomettes........but I don't miss having to raise your berth to use the commode! I do appreciate that having private restroom facilities is of greater importance to some!
As for dinner on #92.....I think I would have preferred a dinner roll to the salad.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David, once again another good post about your experiences on a trip. Thanks for sharing it with us.
My condolences regarding your father-in-law's diagnosis. I sincerely hope that he'll respond well to the chemotherapy.
By the way, the northbound track on the CSX 'S' line from Savannah to Cary sounds like it's as bad as the southbound track on the CSX 'A' line from Washington, DC to Rocky Mount. Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: The Raleigh Amtrak Station is interesting. It’s a brick colonial style building which was originally built some years ago (1920’s maybe) by the Southern Railway. It became redundant and was turned into a seafood restaurant when the Southern Railway discontinued passenger train service (a Greensboro – Goldsboro day turn) in 1964.
Current Station: The Southern Railway Company built the current Amtrak station in 1950. Southern Railway discontinued passenger service to their Raleigh station in 1964. Passenger train service to this old station resumed in 1984 when Amtrak moved from the old Raleigh Seaboard station. The station currently accommodates six passenger trains daily, consisting of the north and south bound Carolinian, Piedmont and Silver Star.
Raleigh is one of the busiest stations in North Carolina and in the South. As a result, Amtrak spent more than $580,000 to expand waiting room space and to add a First Class passenger lounge."
So, the station is actually much newer than the 1920's. Does anybody know what Southern used for a station in Raleigh before that? Was there a Union Station of some sort somewhere, or did each company always have their own. This also gets around to, when did the original Norfolk Southern end passenger service?
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I'm curious now myself and will try to find out when the original Norfolk Southern Railway ended passenger train service. I'm also curious what Southern did for a station before 1950. There may have been a Union Station of sorts in Raleigh before that time.
Let me shoot an email out to some folks in the Carolina Association for Passenger Trains and se what I can uncover.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David: Through the 50's at least, the Southern operated a through New York or Washington to Raleigh sleeper that went to Greensboro and then was put into a Greensboro to Goldsboro train. If I recall correctly, the arrival was very early morning. Since the SAL did this route much more directly, I wonder where the ridership came from. There may have also been an Asheville to Raleigh sleeper, but I do not recall. You could also make a day run from Raleigh to Asheville or Atlanta, on the Piedmont out of Greensboro to Atlanta and the Carolina Special to Asheville. It was anything but fast. George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Below is an answer to the question regarding whether there was a Union Station in Raleigh from a member of the Carolina Association for Passenger Trains.......(short answer....yes - until 1950 apparantly)
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Yes, Union Station is still standing in Raleigh, as is the Seaboard Station and the NS station. Only the Seaboard station is recognizable.
The Union Station required a long back up move for all railroads since it was a stub end station, so all of the railroads decided to abandon it and build their own separate stations. *************************************************
Still working on an answer on Norfolk Southern Railway passenger service. I found a scan of an employees timetable from 1964 online which makes no mention of any passenger service.
In the early days of Southern's 'Carolina Special' there may have been a through sleeper from Cincinnati to Raleigh (via Asheville and Greensboro) and perhaps on to Goldsboro. By the early 1960's, however, the sleepers on the Carolina Special were only making a Cincinnati to Asheville turn.
By the time the Carolina Special ended in December 1968, the remaining Asheville train was rerouted into Salisbury and connecting to/from Washington with the Piedmont. Previously this train had connected with the Crescent and carried a through sleeper but by connecting with a day train instead there was no longer any need for the sleeping car.
Seaboard could better serve Raleigh with faster, direct trains and this is probably the reason Southern gave up on Raleigh in 1964.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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George, if you're referring to when Southern Railway left the passenger rail business, the answer is either January or February of 1979. (I can't remember which.) This is when Southern's last passenger train, the 'Southern Crescent', made its last trip. The train was turned over to Amtrak at that time, where it has continued to this day as the 'Crescent'.
Hope this helps.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
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Under Raleigh Union Station on Wikipedia (the finest source for information on the whole wide internet....not) is a note that Seaboard built their own station and left Raleigh Union Station in 1942 because they were tired of the lengthy backup move.
Norfolk Southern and Southern Railway remained in Union Station until Southern, AFTER Norfolk Southern discontinued passenger service, left for their own run-through station in 1950.
That would likely peg the end of NS passenger trains in 1948, 49, or early 1950.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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By NS George was referring to the original Norfolk Southern Railway, a Norfolk-Elizabeth City-Wilson-Raleigh-Fuquay-Varina-Robbins-Charlotte shortline which began in the late 1800's and was merged into the Southern Railway in 1974.
Here's the scoop thanks to an enthusiast of the old East Tennessee and Western North Carolina narrow guage railroad - I posed the question to their email group as well -
The original Norfolk Southern exited the passenger train business on January 31, 1948. It was their moving out of Raleigh Union Station that left Southern as the only tenant and prompted Southern to build their own run-through passenger station which opened in 1950.
The Southern Railway station is the current Amtrak station in Raleigh although the 1942 Seaboard Station (which hosted Amtrak from 1971 to 1985) and the old Union Station both still stand and are in use by other businesses.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David- looks like you are on target for end of NS passenger service. My Nov. 1949 Official Guide does not show it. It is in the Jan. 1947 Guide. Leaves Norfolk at 9:45am and arrives Raleigh at 8:10pm. The two trains met around Edenton - which I believe is near a very long trestle across scenic Pamlico Sound. We used to drive from Baltimore to the outer banks and part of the drive followed the NS.
I recall seeing the SRR Washingotn-Raleigh sleeper. A college friend and I took the SAL from Richmond to Raleigh to see a high school friend at NC State in mid-60's. I remember looking out the dorm room and seeing a very short SRR train with a 10-6 on the rear. The Guide shows it connected to the Peach Queen in Greensboro. Southbound it left Washingotn at 11:25pm (you could board at 10pm) and arrived Raleigh at 8:55a - a 9.5 hour trip. The SAL did it in 5 hours on the Meteor.
The Norfolk Southern Railroad was bought by the Southern in 1974 and merged into its Carolina and Northwestern subsidiary. This of course was long before the name was used for the new Norfolk Southern Corp. in 1982 (from Historical Guide to North American Railroads).
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Tarheelman: The southern passenger service I was talking about was that into Raleigh, not systemwide. I am well aware of Southern's service otherwise, as I was a semi regular passenger on the declining service in Tennessee and Alabama in the mid to late 60's, and rode the Crescent out of Alexandria VA a couple of times in the 70's.
Notelvis is right. I was referring to the original Norfolk Southern. Thanks also for the information on their last train. I have a 1952 OG, and it shows NS as freight only.
Where is the original Union Station?
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I'm starting to feel like a real historian!
The Union Station in Raleigh was located at the corner of Dawson and West Martin Streets. That's about two blocks north and about six blocks east of the current Amtrak station.....a location much closer to downtown. The lead track for Union Station joined the main lines a couple of hundred yards northeast of Boylan Interlocking. Again, just a few hundred yards from the present Amtrak station.
Here is a website with photos of the various Raleigh stations and office buildings as they appeared earlier this year. I don't know what business occupies the former Union Station now but I have driven by this building not even realizing that it was once Raleigh's railroad depot!
Why in the world they painted the existing brick Amtrak station white when they renovated it a few years ago I cannot understand. It looked much nicer in it's original red brick.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sorry for the confusion on my part, George. I didn't know that there once was a short line named Norfolk Southern.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
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It's an honest mistake. When I posed my question about Norfolk Southern passenger trains over at the Carolina Association of Passenger Trains email group I had somone answer that Norfolk Southern had only existed since 1982 and had never operated it's own passenger trains.
Right answer for the modern era NS.
If you ever get to the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer (Salisbury), they have a diesel locomotive and maybe a caboose from the old NS in their collection.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Tarheelman: No problem. It seems some railroad names do get recycled at times. Sometimes it is too easy to forget that what you may consider common knowledge is not for those that were involved or around at the time. I was totally surprised that there ever was a Raleigh Union Station, as it never existed in my time frame of knowledge.
An example of a recycled name: There have been three Mississippi Central Railroad companies. 1. The original: Canton Mississippi to Jackson, Tennessee. built 1852 to 1860, know for a while as the Great Jackson Route, because with help of a connection it joined Jackson Tennessee and Jackson Mississippi. Dissapeared into the Illinois Central in the 1870's as part of the spoils of war. Mississippi Central name retired. 2. The second: built 1897 to 1909 between Hattiesburg MS and Natchez MS. Absorbed into the ICG as part of or shortly after the ICRR + GM&O merger. Mississippi Central name retired again. Operated by ICRR and now mostly abandoned east of Brookhaven MS. 3. The third: ICG abandoned most of the Jackson TN to Grenada MS portion of the original. A part became a short line, Grand Junction TN to Oxford MS, under the name Natchez Trace Railroad, even though located no where near the Natchez Trace. This has since been taken over by Kyle and renamed Mississippi Central. Wonder if the people involved even know this is a remnant of the original Miss Cent.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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George, if I had to guess (and it's only a guess), I'd say that the operators of the current Mississippi Central RR have no idea that it's a remnant of the original Mississippi Central (or that the name goes back to the mid 19th century, for that matter).
David, thanks for the link to the NC railroad stations. I never knew that the building housing Davis Garage in Winston-Salem was once the city's passenger rail station.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
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