One can compile endless lists of "problems" at Amtrak. Economically, the traffic summer maximum and winter minimum, with idle Western highlevel equipment, unusable on the East Coast Florida routes during the winter, ranks at the top of the list. There is a saying in business that nothing is more expensive than equipment that is not doing anything. Running Western equipment from Chicago to Florida during the winter, both with scheduled service and a Chicago Auto Train would make money for Amtrak. Amtrak management knows well that doing that is the last thing the Bush Administration wants them to do.
The map showed a link between Jacksonville and Chicago, labeled the CSX Southeast Corridor. North of Birmingham the link followed the routes of the South Wind and Dixie Flagler on the L&N and the C&EI.
The link also showed, as part of the BN Sante Fe Transcon, a link between Birmingham and Memphis on the Frisco.
The C&EI through Evansville lacks for an ideal Amtrak route for small on line population. It would work for an Auto Train service however.
A much better Chicago Florida route would combine the upgraded Memphis-Birmingham and Birmingham-Jacksonville lines with existing Amtrak service on the IC from Chicago to Memphis. Chicago Florida could operate on existing Amtrak schedules for half the trip. The IC route would serve the St. Louis and Missouri market. The route also has an substantial on line population now supporting the Illini, Saluki, and City of New Orleans. The route would not cross the Appalachians, but skirt it at Birmingham.
The City of Miami schedule in my 1941 Official Guide looks very good. (Note: Actually this train branched off at Fulton, did not transit Memphis, and took a short cut to Birmingham): 8:40 am from Chicago, evening from Memphis, overnight to Jacksonville, and day to Florida points. Northbound it ran 5:25 p.m. from Miami, overnight from Jacksonville to Memphis, and day to Chicago, with a 9:55 p.m. arrival.
I would summarize the idea not as new trains but as an extension of the Southbound Saluki from Carbondale to Memphis and Florida and as an extension of the Northbound Illini from Carbondale to Florida.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Jul 2007
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I agree with you that we would like to see a direct train from Chicago to Florida.....but I'm not sure routing such through Memphis would be a significant improvement over going by way of Washington, DC. I mean Memphis is awfully far west of Florida.
You've dismissed the improved C&EI line through Evansville, IN for having little on-line population BUT that line, aside from a more direct route, offers a couple of things that a Memphis route does not.
Primarily, the C&EI route would serve Nashville, TN which would likely be the most significant intermediate station in terms of generating passenger traffic on the entire route. (Those things being a young and mobile large population, major tourist destination, an infant commuter train operation so the notion of taking the train has at least been planted there, and no other Amtrak train already serving the city - every Amtrak passenger to/from Nashville is going to be using THIS train.)
The C&EI would also permit a station stop at Hopkinsville, KY.....a town recently shunned by Greyhound in spite of being just 10 miles from Ft. Campbell, home of the Army's 101st Division and one of the largest military bases in the United States. Don't overlook that potential......Ft. Bragg is a major factor in keeping ridership up at the Fayetteville, NC station.
Rather than go to Birmingham next, I'd suggest continue moving this train southeasterly (more-or-less) along the old NC&StL from Nashville to Atlanta via Chattanooga, another popular tourist destination that could bring alot of attention to becoming an Amtrak outpost.
The one drawback is that even improved this is not going to be a particularly fast route. The population density and tourist interest locations would suggest a late evening departure from Chicago, stops the following day in Hopkinsville, Nashville, Chattanooga, and Atlanta (plus Macon) then overnight a second night reaching Orlando shortly after breakfast. This two night schedule might not draw any more end to end traffic than the current go to Washington, DC and change arrangement does......but it does provide many untapped potential one night and partial day trips - Miami to Atlanta, Orlando to Nashville, Chicago to Ft. Campbell, Chicago to Nashville, etc.
So......that's my two cents. I do see Chicago to Florida as probably the most gaping hole in the long-distance network.
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Again, Mr. Supporter, I can only reiterate that whatever improvements the Class I industry is making to their plant so that more traffic may be efficiently handled, are not being made with passenger trains in mind.
One possibly wonders why, since I reside in the Chicago area, make use of Amtrak LD whenever reasonably possible, and go to Florida most every year, I'm not on the bandwagon myself?
It is quite simple that both CSX and NS handle considerable traffic as is over their Midwest-SE lines and have been rid of passenger trains since 1979 and A-Day (or even before) respectively. They are not about to embrace a return of such to their rails.
I rode The Floridian "bumper to bumper" during Nov 1977 (also South Wind and City of Miami pre-A-Day); while Amtrak put their 'best foot forward' so far as equipment went (2 SDP-40's Bagg, Dorm, 2 Sleepers, 2 Domes, 2 Coaches, Diner, Lounge), the service was hardly competitive with "safe and sane" drive time, served the second largest city in the region at an odd hour, and missed the largest SE city, ATL, altogether. No wonder it was a loser and was "Target 1" for the 'Carter Cuts" (oh but Dems love Amtrak, don't they?).
The private Auto Train did have Louisville-Sanford service - and it flopped. As a seventeen trip AT "veteran", it is no wonder. As I've often noted at these various forums, AT passengers are not railfans nor are they even train lovers, such as (and I hope I'm not out of line to name names) our Ms. Sojourner and Miss Vickie clearly have shown themselves to be. I really don't think either of these ladies are 'railfans' out on the photo line, but they both sure love their trains.
The AT passengers are "none of the above"; they simply want the most painless way out there to move their auto, generally for an extended stay, to Florida. Be assured, for as noted I've "been there done that", "arewethereyetitis" becomes quite endemic if AT doesn't arrive by noon, or roundly twenty hours on the train.
I know and respect that both Messrs. Presley and Supporter have posted their sincere thoughts in good faith, but I'm afraid Midwest-Fla is simply one more 'connect the dots' charade on the part of NARP and other advocacy groups, for which I think it is readily surmised I have little or no respect.
Posts: 9979 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Norman makes valid points. The host railroads are not particularly ameniable to the idea of another Chi-Fla train and those of us who would like to see one can't seem to agree on which dots we would like to see connected.
(I'd like to vote the city of my birth, Louisville, KY, for inclusion in this new train derby!)
At least I made a couple of trips on the erstwhile Kentucky Cardinal and can carry the memory of once boarding a passenger train (in the sleeper no-less) at Louisville Union Station with me forever.
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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No problem with your describing me as a train lover, Mr Norman, I think that's a good description. I don't really know much about the technical aspects (and don't care). I don't really know that much about the history either (but there I really like learning more all the time, as I often do here).
But I do think there ought to be Amtrak service from Florida to Atlanta, and I'd hope it would go on past there, at least through Chattanooga to Nashville. I also think there ought to be train service between Nashville and Memphis. My recommendation would be one train, the Chattanooga Choo Choo, not necessarily leaving NYP at a quarter to 4 but going thru Philly, Baltimore, DC and Charlotte on the Crescent track as far as Atlanta, then continuing to Chattanooga, and Nashville--providing a second NYC-Atlanta connection daily. My other recommendation would be a train from Florida to Atlanta, then on to Chattanooga, Nashville, Louisville, and Chicago.
I also think the Cardinal should be vastly improved, with better hours and better daily trains, and should somehow serve Columbus OH and Lexington KY, or there should be a shuttle.
I don't know where the tracks are, but obviously, there need to be more tracks, right along side the ones now, where the right of way is, if the lines are crowded.
As far as I'm concerned, Amtrak could drop the Palmetto and add these instead. It's crazy that Savannah--lovely city though it is--has so much better train service than a busy city like Atlanta.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: ....carry the memory of boarding a passenger train (in the sleeper no-less) at Louisville Union Station with me forever.
As do I, Mr. Presley; namely South Wind during Dec 1970
Posts: 9979 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I also had a ride on Amtrak's 'Floridian' Chicago to Jacksonville in August 1979. Riding in the dome down the street in Bedford, IN at 5:00am was also a memorable experience.
By this late date, six weeks before discontinuance, this train was using the otherwise abandoned Auto-Train station in a warehouse district south of Louisville.....so as to not require the backup move into Union Station.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sojourner's comment on the Palmetto got my attention as of course that is a train that we carolinians use with some regularity (and in fact has growing ridership).
But the point is well taken, that probably no route could be added without dropping another to pay for it, short of a significant change in this country's approach to rail passenger service.
David's notion of the Evansville route might be good from the standpoint of that line having a $200 million upgrade by CSX to provide addtional capacity. But I suspect Mr. Norman is correct in how receptive CSX would be to this.
With that said, I would favor a route connecting in Cincinnati (to avoid extra miles from Chicago) with an improved Cardinal. From Cinci, it should use the L&N route that can stop in Knoxville for that ridership (and importantly an I-40 thruway bus connection to Asheville then to Greensboro).
It should continue on to Chattanooga and Atlanta. This would also provide for connection to the I-81 corridor the NS is working on with the state of Virgina to connect DC with Lynchburg, Roanoke and Bristol and someday continue on into TN.
However, my sentimental favorite routing certainly would be Cinci-Louisville-Nashville as a frequent rider on the Pan American back 'in the good old days'.
Perhaps Nashville could be hooked into the system via a continuation of Nashville commuter service on the old TC route to Knoxville. Recently that line has been restored as far as Monterrey, TN and the state is supposedly acquiring the property for the remainder of the route to Knoxville.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: Perhaps Nashville could be hooked into the system via a continuation of Nashville commuter service on the old TC route to Knoxville. Recently that line has been restored as far as Monterrey, TN and the state is supposedly acquiring the property for the remainder of the route to Knoxville.
If you enjoy slow.
If I recall correctly, the TC trains took 8 hours plus between Nashville and Knoxville, including two hours on the Southern between Harriman and Knoxville.
The upgrade to 60 mph for the commuter only goes as far east as Lebanon, and even with the upgrade, the commuter trains are taking about one hour for the 32 miles. It is not truly 60 mph all the way. There are several curves to slower speeds in that 32 miles.
Between Lebanon and Monterey there is a lot of old and worn 80 lb/yd and 90 lb/yd rail, and very little heavier. Even with the track rebuilt to good quality, you are still left with the grades and curves, so the lod TC at its best speed limits of 35 to 40 mph are still about as good as you can do.
(I am originally a Tennessee boy and went to college at Tenn Tech in Cookeville. Wandered around the railroad for fun.)
Posts: 2810 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Sojourner's comment about jazzing up the Cardinal caught my attention. Traditionally the C&O did have sections of their 'George Washington' branching off the main trunk at Ashland, KY to Columbus and Louisville, KY via Lexington.
Going to Columbus from Ashland is still a possibility. So would a leg to St. Louis from either Cincinnati or Indianapolis. Sadly, CSX has ripped out the old C&O line from Ashland to Lexington. I regularly attend basketball games in Rupp Arena which sits on land once occupied by the C&O yards in Lexington.
Another sidebar - my mother, a Louisville native, used the Kentucky section of the George Washington several times each year going from home to college at Eastern Kentucky State College (now a U.) in the 1950's. She would change from the GW to a connecting L&N train down to Richmond at Winchester, KY. A highlight of these trips would be having a turkey sandwich, the cheapest item on the dinner menu, for supper in the C&O diner.
Thanks to steam excursions operated by the Kentucky Railway Museum in the 1980's, I did have the opportunity to at least ride the Louisville to Winchester portion of my mother's train rides back to college.
George, the Tennessee Central museum folks periodically operate an excursion from Nashville to Cookeville complete with E-8's and a dome car. I wonder if you've managed to get back for one of those trips?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: George, the Tennessee Central museum folks periodically operate an excursion from Nashville to Cookeville complete with E-8's and a dome car. I wonder if you've managed to get back for one of those trips?
No, but I would love to do it.
Posts: 2810 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:I'm not sure routing such through Memphis would be a signifcant improvement over going by way of Washington, DC. I mean Memphis is awfully far west of Florida.
I went back to my June, 1941 Official Guide and discovered some interesting facts I didn't know about. At that time, the railroads were providing Chicago-Florida service on the "three day" system. Three different trains operated on three different routes, one each day.
The Dixie Flagler ran C&EI to Evansville, L&N to Nashville, NC&StL to Chattanooga and Atlanta and onto Jacksonville, the most direct route as birds fly. This route crossed the Appalachians with a zig zag, actually backtracking and traveling North 39 miles from Stevenson, Alabama to Chattanooga. The train crossed the Appalachians again after crossing the Tennessee River at Chattanooga.
This route hasn't got any better since then. It's a problem one.
The South Wind followed the same route to Nashville but continued on the L&N to Montgomery and onto Jacksonville. This was slightly longer and skirted the Appalachians at Birmingham.
Both trains were steam.
The City of Miami took a longer but flater path on the IC's double-track speedway through Southern Illinois to Birmingham and onto Columbus and Jacksonville. The IC named Casey Jones' train "The Cannonball Express" with good reason. The City was streamlined diesel.
All three trains were all coach. Apparently, the railroads had suspended Pullman service for the summer.
Each of these three trains, though on different routes, followed the exact same schedule and departed Chicago at 8:40 a.m. and arrived at Jacksonville at 8:30 a.m., the next morning, 24 hours less 10 minutes.
They also followed the same schedule northbound.
The faster running times and longer distances cancelled each other out on all three routes. None appears inherently better than the others.
However, today Amtrak operates only over the IC route with station infrastructure in place. It's the only route over which you can spin Florida service as an extension of an existing train, not a new route. It would require only one new station, in Columbus.
Going through Washington is much longer. Today, you leave Chicago at 7:05 p.m. on the Capitol Limited, arrive Washington at 1:30 p.m. and depart at 7:30 p.m. on the Silver Meteor. It takes 24 hours, plus 25 minutes, just to get on the Florida train in DC. You arrive Jacksonville at 9:23 a.m., the second morning from Chicago.
I also checked the 1941 equivalent of this routing. It left Chicago at 3:50 p.m. and arrived in DC at 8:40 a.m. You could catch the Southern States Special on the Seaboard at 3 p.m., roughly 24 hours later, and arrive in Jacksonville at 7:50 a.m. on the second morning.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Jul 2007
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You've done remarkable research and obviously given this issue a whole lot of thought.
Look into the South Wind a little more and you should find that north of Nashville it was handled by the Pennsy from Chicago to Louisville via Indianapolis and thence down the L&N mainline to Nashville. By the last couple of pre-Amtrak years the Dixie Flagler was out of the mix and the South Wind was operating on alternate days with the City of Miami. In fact, L&N's Cincinnati-New Orleans Pan American was also operating combined with the South Wind between Louisville and Nashville.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mr. Supporter, I too wish to commend you for the painstaking research you have done regarding historical Midwest-SE services.
Regarding Pullmans on the trains you note such as Dixie Flagler, South Wind, City of Miami, they were inaugurated as year round all Coach trains. As of 1941 (year of my birth BTW) 98% of the Pullmans out there were heavyweight; many still had friction bearings. They were simply not compatible with "high speed rail' of the day.
But alas, that Coach business noted (as well as the Pullman) choose to shoe horn themselves into the likes of Air Tran, Spirit, and USA 3000 (of interest, at their website, they proclaim "book USA3000, pay at Western Union" - I somehow think they are pitching to a clientele who could well not have a credit card) - oh well, at least it's all over in about six hours door to door.
Of the three routings you note, the City of Miami was the fastest, and on A-Day Eve was speed competitive with safe and sane driving. Of course, we should note on A-Day there were still 'gaps" in I-57, I-24, and many a gap in I-75 Chatta Atl. We have enough "local knowledge" of that area to affirm, perfect, or refute, that statement. But City conveniently dodged any intermediate sources of traffic, and hence was discarded by the NRPC Incorporators (I should note this was inconsistent with their rationale elsewhere. The AT&SF and the GN routes were chosen over the UP and NP because the former had more end to end business rather than the more populous on-line traffic sources of the latter).
Posts: 9979 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Amtrak supporter makes a good case for the IC route given the high volume of freight traffic and winding routes via CSX or NS.
If assume this is something we'd like to see in the near future, one option that has been considered is simply to continue the CONO on to FL via the Sunset route. No new infrastructure and the route miles already in the system. Obviously this is longer but no negotiations or investment required.
A better alternative might be to go to Birmingham as suggested (perhaps making connections with the Crescent). Birmingham is in the midst of building a new intermodal transportation terminal to include Amtrak and is planning trolley/light rail in the city. But from Birmingham continue south on the former L&N to Montgomery (capital city - station still in place) then to Flomaton where it meets the Sunset route from New Orleans.
May be able to sell the miles on CSX since the Sunset miles NOL-JAX are part of the existing system. NOL-Flomaton mileage is slightly more than required for a Flomaton-Birmingham alternative. I'm not sure how you finance the new segment Birmingham-Memphis.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Research on 1941 Official Guides is always interesting, but I think it's more helpful to look at the schedule of the "Floridian" in its last days. It had a late-evening departure from Chicago and an early-morning arrival in Jax, about 36 hours or a bit less rather than the 24 of 1941. And therein lies the problem, as Mr. Norman has noted. Whichever route you pick. today's railroads will not give you that 24 hour schedule to Jax. You'll be two nights and two days on the road, and that's *too long* to attract anybody from planes, and not even competitive with driving.
I've posted frequently about the decline in East Coast Florida services, but at least they were still running on competitive schedules on the eve of Amtrak (24 hours NYP to Miami on the "Florida Special" in 1971). The Chicago-Florida trains were not.
A good bit of the former "City of Miami" route from Fulton, KY to Birmingham is either abandoned or in the hands of short lines. The Chicago-Louisville route via Indianapolis is partially gone and partially a short line. The L&N main is slow and congested, either via Atlanta or via Montgomery. The "Dixie Flagler" route via Evansville would probably be the best choice, but you'd still have to contend with Nashville-Atlanta (slow and busy) and Atlanta-Jax (slow and busy).
And as Mr. Norman noted, the Louisville Auto-Train service failed.
I never rode any of the Chicago-Florida trains, I'm sorry to say, and at my age (55) I don't think I'll live to see them return.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Absolutely! Any direct Chi-Fla train is going to require a 2 night schedule a la the Amtrak 'Floridian'. This is not much of an improvement over taking the Capitol to Washington and changing to the Silver Meteor. You're still investing 48 more-or-less hours if you want to travel endpoint to endpoint.
Sooooooo.......if progress is going to be made in getting any sort of passenger service back on a Chicago to Florida route, the key is going to be what opportunites exist for generating ridership on the 'middle day'.
Not many folks will ride this train from Chicago to Miami BUT what market is there for an overnight trip Chicago to Nashville or a 20-hour trip Chicago to Atlanta? How many of these passengers will be replaced by Tennesseans and Georgians looking for an overnight trip to Orlando or South Florida? How about daytrippers between Atlanta and Nashville? What about connections to/from the Crescent in Atlanta for passengers interested in going, say, Charlottesville-Atlanta-Nashville?
My point being that there are some niche markets out there......city pairs within the endpoints....of a midwest-florida passenger route. Any plan that doesn't recognize this and allow itself to be shaped by this is not going to move forward. Actually, at 45 I wouldn't bet on seeing a Chicago-Florida train return in my lifetime either. I had hoped to see the short-lived Kentucky Cardinal extend to Nashville and eventually beyond but that, of course, didn't happen.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Any of the routes into Atlanta from Chicago mean a considerable distance on any of three main routes that are cross grain to the appalachian chain. At considerable expense and with movement of a lot of mountainsides the whole distance can be driven at 70 mph plus on the interstates, which means that 10 hours driving time is practical. On the other hand, except for the Southern rebuilds in the 60's, mostly for clearance reasons, the rest of the alignments are not that far from their late 1800's locations, curves, and grades, so think 18 hours there abouts by rail, maybe more.
Posts: 2810 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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