When AMTRAK was formed, the D&RGW and the Rock Island both did not enter service.

My recollection was that a third "major/regional" railroad also did not join AMTRAK.

Here's a quote from Claytor: "I looked over the situation and it was clear to me that we didn't have to sign up with Amtrak. We could afford to keep our primary train and make it the finest in the country. If we turned over the Crescent to Amtrak, I knew what would happen. It would go to hell, very fast."

According to the book, the Crescent remained a first-class operation until it was finally turned over to Amtrak in '78.

Santa Fe joined Amtrak very reluctantly. There was a technicality in the law that created Amtrak which allowed the railroads to operate only those trains that were still running in 1971. What SF wanted to do was revive the Chief, and drop other routes. But since the Chief wasn't currently running, only Amtrak could revive it, which is what happened. If SF could have done that themselves they would have stayed out of Amtrak.

To this day BNSF still takes passenger service seriously. Amtrak trains running on BNSF tracks have the best on-time performance in Amtrak's system.

------------------
Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

D&H's NY-Montreal service was previously a joint operation with the New York Central, who ran it south of Schenectady. (I didn't mention Penn Central. I won't.) My understanding is that when service resumed, an Amtrak locomotive and crew ran the NY-Albany section, with the D&H picking it up from there.

It was an impressive train, boasting a full diner and mostly-D&H livery. North of Albany, worn out Amtrak E-8's were replaced with refurbished Alco PA1's sporting D&H warbonnets, and an observation-dome was added to the rear; probably the best-equipped train ever to run on that line. It also linked Grand Central with Montreal's Windsor Station, two of the most majestic pieces of railroad architecture in North America.

Needless to say, it didn't last long. The PA's eventually went to Mexico and the rest of the equipment, I believe, was absorbed into Amtrak. The Adirondack assumed a turbo, then Amfleet, then some really lousy Heritage equipment left over from the Clockers. It now runs slowly from Penn Station to Gare Central. Grand Central is commuter-only, and Windsor Station is now a co-op (or something). And the track was bought by Canadian Pacific, who continually increases its speed restrictions in lieu of proper maintenance.

Having been in the railroad industry on A-Day, I had previously learned that the ATSF decision to join Amtrak was only reluctantly made. In fact, it is my understanding that negotiations to enter Chicago Union Station pursuant to Section 4.4 of the May 1971 Agreement were still "ongoing" into A-Day, although the first Amtrak-sponsored Santa Fe train did leave from CUS as scheduled..

Another railroad on which the decision to join was hardly a "done deal" was the Seaboard Coast Line. SCL passenger trains were likely still "making money" on an avoidable cost basis ("cookie jar" is my favorite term; I've even used such in conference with clients).

However, looking ahead, SCL could see that their "above average maintained" equipment would need to be replaced. Further, their Florida trains enjoyed a disproportionate amount of revenue from Sleeping Cars, and as Executors submitted return tickets for refund to a deceased passenger's Estate, they could only see that portion of the business deterioriating.

SCL could also envision Amtrak "breaking" the interchange at either Richmond or Washington (depending whether RF&P joined up or followed majority owner SCL and stayed out). Through cars for Corridor destinations have always been deemed essential; even though the "threat" was often placed on the table PRR/PC never "broke" that interchange (usually they managed to get the "division" of interline revenue tilted a bit more in their favor). Although Amtrak has considered "breaking" the through service periodically (a through Chgo-Fla Superliner equipped Capitol-Silver Star has been considered), they have always thought the wiser and have left the matter alone.

I just did the Montrealer/Adirondack about a month ago. Pleasant trip but the cars are not in the best shape. They have really old coaches - not sure their origin, certainly no dining car or observation car. Oh yes - and the crew was quite rude. Of the 60-75 passengers boarding in Montreal they forced everyone into a single coach saying they would be busy later on - later on wasn't until Albany some 6 hours later. People travelling together were forced to sit apart. And of course we had to walk thru 3 empty coaches on the way back and forth to the snack bar.

Definitely not the wonderful full service train you described above.

quote:

---

Originally posted by drew_henderson:
Gare Windsor is still in use as a commuter opertaion . . .

---

True enough. I'm just loathe to call the rear entrance to the Molson Centre Windsor Station. Too many grim reminders there for a New Yorker. Fortunately, the real Windsor Station still exists a block away, and in remarkably good shape considering its present disuse. It'll never see service again, though. A stadium stands in the way.

I wrote the post above partly in reaction to my own trip on the Adirondack in February. You're correct - it's a dismal, poorly managed train. Though the crew on mine was friendly, they still regimented the inane seating system you describe. The coaches are bleak. In Winter, heating is sparse; the temperature often descends into the 40's Fahrenheit. Still yet, someone in refurbishing had the distinctively Penn-Centralish idea of tinting the otherwise-panoramic windows, completely defeating the only advantage of those cars over Amfleet. The reason: in Summer, the A/C is inadequate to cool the sunlit coaches alone. Talk about an all-season disaster.

The coaches were pulled from the NY-Philly Clocker service. Basically, they're commuter coaches, not the long-distance cars of the Heritage fleet. Though the train is billed as having a lounge, it often only has an Amcafe, or at best, a run-down Amlounge. And CP's constant downgrading of the old D&H line has put an extra hour on the run in the last year.

Call it Amtrak irony: the 70's finally caught up with the Adirondack.

quote:

---

Originally posted by drew_henderson:
Of the 60-75 passengers boarding in Montreal they forced everyone into a single coach saying they would be busy later on - later on wasn't until Albany some 6 hours later. People travelling together were forced to sit apart. And of course we had to walk thru 3 empty coaches on the way back and forth to the snack bar.

---

I encountered a similar situation on the Starlight about a year ago. On the Northbound trip the attendants made every effort to put single people in two seats, as there were plenty to go around. But on the return trip everyone was doubled up no matter what, leaving two completely empty cars at the rear of the train. I boarded in Salem and only one of those empty coaches filled up when a tour group boarded in Oakland. The crew was polite about it, and when I asked the attendant he let me sleep in one of the empty cars so both me and my seatmate could stretch out for the night. This was with the condition that I return to my assigned seat in the morning.

------------------
Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

I also had the same type of situation. I boarded the Sunset Limited in Jacksonville, headed to Tucson. They jammed me in a very full coach. After we departed, I walked back, and there was an empty coach. I moved my things and sat back there. It was late at night and I thought that most people were asleep. The car attendent found me about an hour later and was extremely rude. I ended up talking with the conductor who was nice. He said that I could stay in that coach until New Orleans, but they were taking it off in New Orleans, and I would have to move then. I agreed that I would move, but at least that way I would have a nice sleep in an empty coach over night. The next day, at New Orleans, they did not take the coach off. The coach I was originally told to sit in remained filled the entire trip. I stayed in the empty coach which remained close to empty most of the way.

THe Rock Island simply didn't have the cash to join Amtrak. DRGW's loss was small, but they didn't want Amtrak on their railroad. For Southern, it really was a matter of pride, and their loss was relatively small.

------------------
Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

The measurement period for determining the Amtrak "entry fee" was Calendar Year 1969. Incidentally there was another option in addition to the 200% avoidable noted by Mr. Resor, and that was 100% of the "ICC fully allocated' loss. But I'm not aware of any carrier that accepted the second option.

Thus, if a carrier had sucessfully eliminated a substantial amount of service subsequent to (or even during the latter part of) the "measurement period", that would constitute a disincentive to join, as the "cost/benefit" would be diminished. I believe this was the case with both the RI and the SOU.

On a closing note, there was actually one railroad that had eliminated all passenger service prior to 1969 that still joined Amtrak. That was the SP subsidiary Northwestern Pacific. Being a California intrastate railroad, they were concerned that a State regulatory agency could force them to reinstate passenger service. Joining Amtrak, they felt, would provide them protection under Federal law that would override State jurisdiction in such a matter. Aside from the filing fees and the allocated cost of surely "in house" attorneys to research the matter and draft the necessary documents, this was a no cost decision. No trains during 1969 meant no "avoidable cost loss", which meant no entry fee.

Where did they find the money?

John, who was 13 and living on the West Coast at the time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rresor:


I'm not sure where the bankrupt Penn Central (with a third of the nation's passenger service) found the money to join Amtrak. I don't recall whether they received some specific government grant, or what. Their losses were massive, but Amtrak had to have them -- both for their passenger routes and for their equipment.

---