posted
While we are waiting for Hurricane Sandy and Electionmageddon to arrive, we might contemplate this video of a misbehaving Australian train passenger and the consequences of her misbehavior.
It's a good question. Rough justice or violence against women? What if it happened on an Amtrak train?
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Sadly I once witnessed a "Frankenpassenger" on the Empire Builder just as it pulled into Chicago. It had been an especially wonderful trip beginning in Seattle, so maybe that's the reason it still leaves such a sour taste in my mouth all these years later.
I was riding in coach and it had been a marvelous trip. Our car was filled with friendly souls and we were sorry that the adventure was coming to an end. The couple sitting directly in front me had pretty much kept to themselves, she reading most of the time while he frequented the bar. As we were just about to pull into Union Station in Chicago, he returned to his seat and started speaking very loudly in German about how things in America are so different. I don't speak German, but he was clearly agitated, shouting "America this way, in Deutschland the other way". It wasn't hard to translate.
As the volume of his speech grew louder, the obviously embarrassed wife tried desperately to calm him. But to no avail. The situation quickly escalated out of hand as he slapped her across the face with the force of a mad man. Stunned, sickened silence filled the car. No one moved. But I instinctively reached for the wife to see if she was ok, at which point he lunged at me with hand drawn ready for another slap. I froze, making eye contact with the car attendant who was standing just feet away. I backed down and people slowly began to exit the car. Such a sad ending to such a wonderful trip.
I spoke to the car attendant later as we walked through Union Station. I was extremely rattled, but she was not at all. She explained to me that they are trained to ignore those situations whenever possible, remaining uninvolved. That answer didn't sit well with me at the time, but I suppose in hindsight it would have been fruitless to get involved as the train was emptying. Still.
It still leaves me with a weird feeling almost 20 years later.
Posts: 31 | From: Seattle, WA | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I couldn't quite follow what the Australian woman and the others were arguing about, but I think I got the main idea.........
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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She explained to me that they are trained to ignore those situations whenever possible, remaining uninvolved.
I would be really surprised if Amtrak's policy was to ignore those situations. I mean, heck, they're witnessing a felony right in front of them. I'll bet that their policy is somewhere along the lines of: a) be a good witness, and b) call the Conductor right away. There is just no way that their policy is to "ignore". The attendant probably said that to cover her rear end since she did not act.
BTW, those domestic violence situations are EXTREMELY dangerous. I know that the instinct is to help the victim, but you could easily become a victim as well. I can't tell you how many times I've been at a family fight and the victim tells me to "Arrest him!! I want him to go to jail!!!", and then when I arrest him, the victim then attacks ME, saying, "But I love him!! You can't do this to him!! Take those handcuffs off!!!". Oh boy, I sure don't miss that aspect of the job. But it's common--happens all the time.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Another example of passengers getting even: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16177725 As usual, the video doesn't show the whole story. In this case the student admitted afterwards he did not buy the correct ticket. The conductor did return to work with an unblemished record. And both fare-dodger and "big man", who "escorted" the main off the train, did not face any charges.
Another video, which I can't find right now, showed what appeared to be a man in a wheelchair being denied access to a train. On the face of it, it sounds despicable and that was indeed how it was portrayed when it hit the news channels. Then some more video emerged which showed the "victim" hurling tirades of abuse at the staff. For a few more years yet, older rolling stock is not subject to wheelchair access which was why he couldn't board this particular train, as explained by the conductor, resulting in the tirade of abuse - after which he started filming the apparent injustice. I think in this case the conductor was vindicated either by the station's CCTV or another passenger's video.
So be careful of "jury by YouTube"!
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Is there not, or should there be, a "train marshal" on Amtrak trains? I am thinking, especially, of LD trains which travel long stretches of remote and unpopulated areas, such as those along the Zephyr, SC, and Empire Builder routes.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
No, Amtrak never "trained her (that TA) to ignore" such a situation. I used to teach in the Amtrak training school, even wrote some curriculum for the school. I was a hands-on trainer for over 300 new hires into that job position.
We did not train them to "ignore." Correct response would be use the PA to call "immediate sssistance" which would have sent the conductor and other crew quickly to the car. After getting it under control, most likely there would have been a call for LE to meet the train at CHI platform, if any further action was warranted. Safety of the other passengers would be paramount as well.
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
On my recent trip to KCY on the Runner my buddy and I had a long converstion with one of the crew and the cafe attendant. The subject came up of unruly passengers and she said that they just ejected one somewhere before St. Louis. That reminded me of our Dallas trip last year where the DEA had a shootout with a drug dealer on the Eagle at Dallas Union Station. Fortunately we were not on the train at that time. Our train was the next day.
I have always been under the impression that unruly/violent passengers are not tolerated. The police will meet the train at the first opportunity and the culprit(s) will be ejected and most likely jailed and prosecuted. That is exactly as it should be. I find it hard to believe that they are trained to ignore an assaultive incident such as described.
Someone correct me if I am mistaken about Amtrak's policy in this matter.
Posts: 140 | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
My employ with NRPC Amtrak ended 10 years ago and my assistance in the HRD (new hire training) goes back 20+ years, so I of course must say I can in no way speak for or represent in any way that particular company. But after that legalese, I will venture to say while I was privileged to ride their shiny rails for pay- Amtrakers at all levels tried their best to give the customers a safe and happy ride. Some succeeded better than others.
Humans are involved in the daily ops, and the most important ie. critical onboard staffer is the Conductor. He/she has a lot of latitude in these aggressive passenger situations. They can issue a verbal warning to "behave" and if there is non-compliance, the train can and will be met by law enforcement. "Ejections" don't always necessarily happen. It is a judgment call. In my years of personal observation, most conductors I worked with placed the safe and timely operation of their train in compliance with the Rules and protection of the passengers as their top responsibilities.
I'd hazard a guess- that last sentence is still true today. I've seen certain con 9as close to the "advertised" as possibleductors "eject" entire GROUPS of misbehaving passengers, and deservedly so.
Note to Iron Mtn. Wow, I couldn't begin to state what Amtrak's policy is today; suggest talk to them directly. My above comments are just personal reflections, that's all.. RR Bob
Edited to add the word *timely*
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
RR Bob, I have witnessed several incidents myself in which the conductors and OBS showed not only forbearance but also good judgment in handling difficult passengers. Every time one of us on RailForum complains about an attendant or conductor with attitude, I think about these incidents.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Identifying violent and unruly is a judgement call, to a degree, depending on the situation. Usually employees who deal with public groups of people, including Amtrak attendants, bartenders, teachers, correction officers, police officers recieve instruction ranging from some verbal guidance to thorough behavior and crisis management techniques.
I benefitted from the actions of a conductor on the Texas Eagle a few years back. He handled a situation well. There were several young ladies behind me who were playing their music and singing along with it. It was very annoying. Twice I politely reminded them that they were not supposed to play their laptops or whatever they were and not to sing outloud. The second request I was bit more firm. They pouted and made a small concession to my request, being that they started listening to the music with their earphones on, but continued to sing.
I went and found one of the conductors and told him about the situation. He responded in an assertive and appropriate manner. I did tell him that the ladies were just having fun and I suspected maybe they had one or two too many adult beverages. He settled them down and then told my wife and I that there were some empty seats in the next car and if we so desired we were welcome to relocate. We did so. When I got home I contacted Amtrak commending this gentleman on the way he handled the situation.
I have spent some years as a bartender, alternative classroom teacher, and correctional teacher. In those situations you learn quickly when to act and when to let it ride for a bit. You develop the "look" which is the first response. Next is a friendly but business like request to settle down. And then a firm no nonsense warning. And if all else fails you take the appropriate actions to end the situation. But you never let it get out of hand. And you always are assertive. That doesn't mean angry, rude, or aggressive.
From what I have read the airlines have difficult situations with some passengers. It is a bigger problem at 30000 feet. Too much alcohol in people who can't handle it is most likely a major contributor to the problem.
Posts: 140 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Iron Mountain: From what I have read the airlines have difficult situations with some passengers. It is a bigger problem at 30000 feet. Too much alcohol in people who can't handle it is most likely a major contributor to the problem.
As "tense" as air travel has the potential to be nowadays (nothing to do with security or flight safety; just "everything else"), I sometimes wonder why airlines even sell alcohol (well, anyone knows why they do - $$$$$$). It also would appear that to "comp" a planeload when delays occur, is "counterproductive".
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Interesting you brought up the "comping" subject, GBN. I know that airlines will comp booze under certain conditions. I once gave up my seat on a SW 7-3-7 on request of the FA, in order to accommodate a young mom with kids. The thankful flight attendant asked me "what I drank" and then comped me TWO minis of Bailey's Irish Cream.
During my time with Amtrak- I never saw any alcohol comped under ANY conditions. Free food, sodas, room upgrades, yes but NEVER any adult beverages. Especially in late train situations with many unhappy passengers - it appeared they did not want to invite John Barleycorn to "join in."
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
While I'm not really a "regular" on SWA (seems like what little flying I do is on United - hey I know my way around O'Hare Terminal #1 as well as their website, so why not?) , it seemed like they were "loose" with the comps for a delayed flight. However, "we were on our way" (and with no further incident) before they comped the booze.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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