posted
Well, the second item listed does not surprise me at all. Where do coach passengers mostly eat? The cafe car. Where do sleeper passengers mostly eat? The diner. So it makes sense (to me, at least) that hot dogs and bottled water are top sellers. That's what people want on a train----not some sort of "gourmet" over-priced food item. Just give me hot dogs, chips, and a soda and I'm happy---and I think most are like that.
But for the first item....whew.....part of me wants to say, "Bravo!" to Amtrak for bringing in real chefs who know what they're doing to offer advice on dining menu items. But the other part of me wants to say, "Why are they spending money on celebrity chefs when we all know that in the end, Amtrak still won't know how to serve fresh vegetables". In my opinion, Amtrak has NEVER figured out how to serve veggies that are cooked right. Prior to "Simplified Dining"---yes, absolutely. But ever since then, nope, they come out rubbery and weird. I just wish Amtrak would stick to the basics, and then with those basics, concentrate on learning how to cook and serve them properly. That's all we really want----we don't expect 'gourmet' on Amtrak. The Orient Express?? Yes. Amtrak? No.
I don't know if Amtrak has "chefs" any more---does anyone know? And what I mean by that is a true chef--professionally trained---at a location such as CIA (Culinary Institute of America), as they all were in the past. Because it seems like these days, chefs are not needed. All you need are decent organizational skills, and the ability to pop prepared foods into the convection oven and then plop it down on the plate. Oh, and you need to know how to cook a steak. High school kids could do this job---who do you think cooks your steak at Red Lobster or Applebee's? I would LOVE to be an insider at the Amtrak kitchen so that I could inject reality into their worldly ideas on dining car food.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
If Amtrak's cafe fare has been improved, perhaps they should mention it. When I ride coach and know I'll get hungry, I buy much better food on the way to the station. In a big city station like DC or Philly, there are much better places in the station itself. No way am I buying what they are used to selling. Sleeper Class is a different story. A good meal is a major part of a train journey.
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
"Just give me hot dogs, chips, and a soda and I'm happy."
Sorry, I am not. I very much want a wider range of healthy items available in long-distance snack bars. More nutritionally aware passengers want this choice.
One of the unhealthiest things you can do when exercise options are limited such as on a train is to eat a lot of heavy, fat filled, and worthless junk food. Do this too often in your routine and the quality and longevity of your life can be expected to decline.
In no way does healthy have to mean gourmet and overpriced.
posted
For financial (and political) reasons Amtrak has to provide the uneducated and nutritionally unaware American palate with what it wants.
As for fresh veg in the diner, unfortunately purchasing, storing and preparing those in a dining car is costly, space-hungry and labor-intensive, something Congress does not want.
Hence reliance on the sous-vide method. Not only do Amtrak and the airlines but also many low- and midpriced restaurants buy their vegetables precooked, vacuum sealed and quick-frozen, as they do their steaks, chops and slabs of prime rib, but finishing them properly in convection ovens is tricky.
Amtrak's food specialists seem to have mastered the entrees but need better timing with the vegetables. Sometimes they succeed.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Clearly, you see a marked correlation to what people are eating in abundance. (I was raised on southern food and love it more than any other, but my mother always tried to emphasize healthy choices.)
posted
Having been around the edge of the airline industry for almost 40 years I have seen "Chef's Advisory Panels, etc." come and go and then some.
What it all comes down to is who is in the galley and how much care and experience they put into the preparation and presentation of the food supplied them.
On our recent flight from Rome to Newark on Con-- oops! United, we were in BusinessFirst. We had a brunch for the first meal. It came from the Italian flight kitchen and should have been wonderful. It was unevenly heated but still tasty. The second meal was a sort of chicken pot pie that had been overcooked to the point that it was rock hard.
I suspect that the least senior crew member had been shoved into the forward galley position. It takes a lot more work and skill than working the aisle.
I suspect the same is true on Amtrak. I've had the same meal a couple of times and the taste and presentation varied greatly. I'm looking forward to seeing how things will be on our Coast Starlight trip in early September.
Frank in overcast and cool SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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What it all comes down to is who is in the galley and how much care and experience they put into the preparation and presentation of the food supplied them.
Bam!!! That is the answer---right there.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Does anyone remember riding the Coast Starlight in the late 80's and early 90's when a chef (a tall black man, skinny) would bring a whole big box of herbs, spices, and other thingies on-board for cooking? I remember seeing him walk up and down the aisle as he headed to/from the crew dorm--he always brought them with him. I guess he didn't want to risk his secrets getting out (or the items stolen!)---boy that was great food. That guy really knew how to cook!
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Andy, I cannot help you on that one insomuch as I have only ridden the SP Cascade and the SP Shasta and Coast Daylights, as well as Lark. However, I can recall a "Chef" aboard the "City" 59 August 2003 who had an absolutely wonderful and unique Nutmeg sauce for the Veal Chop Amtrak was offering at that time. I can recall seeing him on the platform at Memphis where I was detaining, and he said to me "now you come on back and I will show you MY sauce to be served with a steak" (could he really match the sweet, sour, and buttery sauce Peter Luger's serves, I shall know not).
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by smitty195: Does anyone remember riding the Coast Starlight in the late 80's and early 90's when a chef (a tall black man, skinny) would bring a whole big box of herbs, spices, and other thingies on-board for cooking? I remember seeing him walk up and down the aisle as he headed to/from the crew dorm--he always brought them with him. I guess he didn't want to risk his secrets getting out (or the items stolen!)---boy that was great food. That guy really knew how to cook!
I encountered a similar chef about 10-12 years ago on the Sunset Limited where the Sunset doesn't go anymore...... supper westward out of Jacksonville.
Rather than your guy, this chef was a gargantuan man..... probably 400 pounds and at least 6'6"..... and his steak was the best I have ever eaten on a train.
I had not encountered the chef yet when I told my tablemates just how that steak compared to others I've had in Amtrak diners but, near the end of our seating, the chef hoisted himself up to the top of the stairs and was hanging out in the galley area for a moment or two.
The guy sitting next to me calls to the chef and in a mock challenging tone says "Hey, did YOU cook this steak?"
The chef answers "Yeah. What about my steak?"
Tablemate points to me and says "This guy here says it's the best steak he's ever had on an Amtrak train."
The chef breaks into a million dollar grin and says "I bring my own spices..... and I'm from New Orleans, what do you expect?"
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Looking at the list it is no surprise. All are states where in the past a large portion of the population did hard physical work and there was and is a high poverty index. While there are many people that are no longer doing as much physical work as their ancestors, they still have much the same eating habits. Thus they are taking in calories and a food composition that may have been appropriate for their parents and grandparents but is not for them.
Then there is also the reality that nothing matches sitting down to a good plate of barbeque with 2 or 3 glasses of sweet iced tea. Ah, sweet iced tea, the true nectar of the gods.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
George, you are quite right. Poverty and a tradition of hard work must play in big role.
Curiously though, until refrigeration, the South enjoyed a much longer season when fresh fruit and vegetables were available. You'd would think that this would have had a positive influence.
Then there is the curiosity of the North Central states having significantly healthier populations than the southern ones. Yet, the Midwest shares a history of hard farm work with the South.
The only factor I can think of is education. Schools in the deep South consistently rank at the bottom in educational achievement. Apparently this carries over to diet and portion size choices.
So, if Amtrak wants to attract customers with higher incomes and higher educational achievement serve the healthy food they expect. Had to bring this back to Amtrak somehow!
By the way, don't serve me that BBQ where they just sprinkle a few spices over. I want it sloppy. And, I want lemonade with mine.
posted
To Don's sensible post I can only add that low-income Americans everywhere can usually afford only inexpensive foods, and those are usually high-calorie, high-sugar and high-fat. In rural Upper Michigan where I summer, obesity is a great problem, and it goes hand in hand with high unemployment.
Folks who eat properly are not only better educated but have higher incomes.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I also had a chef on a City who seasoned his servings in his own way. Yes, he was a New Orleans local. This was during the time of simplified dining - he was "having none of that nonsense" apparently. Good for him but I do wonder if management ever found out that he was too good for Amtrak.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Geoff: I heard from dining car staff that the chefs became afraid to make the meals better because AmManagement did not like it. That's a shame--I mean, they are certified professional chefs (at least, they were back then---I don't know about now) so it's not like it's a kid experimenting and he'll make people sick. Oh I miss the great dining car food---really miss it. Remember at dinner you would always be asked, "Soup or salad?". Soup disappeared years ago.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
My wife and I just discussed the food on our Amtrak/Golden Princess trip.
Overall, the Amtrak food was just as good, and in some cases better than the food on the cruise ship, with one exception, the ship's bread pudding with raisins. Obviously, the Amtrak food was much more limited, but the steak and the spare ribs were better than anything the Princess was offering. We both agree the food was better on the Coast Starlight, but there was nothing wrong with the Sunset Limited food.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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It's been about 8 years since we've cruised on Princess. The quality of their food must have come down quite a bit since then if you are able to compare it to Amtrak's. Miss Vicky, you've done Princess more recently that we have. What do you think?
I would compare the food in the Main Dining Room (as opposed to the specialty/pay extra restaurants) on Celebrity, our favorite cruise line, to what you would be served in a nice restaurant. Excellent service and very good quality ingredients and preparation and presentation. Even Room Service (No charge) is several steps above what I've had in good hotels.
On our last cruise the MDR food and service was so good we didn't eat at any of the specialty restaurants at all. I think many people felt that way because they were doing some pretty good BOGO and other reduced price deals to try to fill up the smaller venues.
We are flying to Vancouver next Saturday and staying at the Airport Fairmont which is right in the Terminal. In the morning we will cross the street and take SkyTrain directly to Canada Place for boarding. I think it's about $7.00 ow and maybe 30 minutes. VERY convenient!
Frank in now sunny and warmish SBA Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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We ate at the main dining (anytime dining) 8 to a table, and at the buffet. The food was good, but nothing special.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I once had a unique Veal Chop aboard #59, City of New Orleans, served with a very exquisite Nutmeg sauce. I highly doubt if such was in whatever Amtrak's "official cookbook" is titled.
But Amtrak is acting no differently than many another hotel chain. I once learned of a real chef at a Holiday Inn somewhere being told to "cut it out". The concern was of course that a standard would be established that could not be met at other outlets. While Amtrak allows their public contact employees far more latitude to "be themselves' while performing their duties than any other national transportation or hospitality company, it appears that with Food and Beverage, such was "a step too far". Can anyone imagine a Flight Attendant, who fancied herself as a chef, "spicing up" the in-flight fare - and keeping her job (gee Dad, did they REALLY once serve hot full course meals aboard planes)?
Now regarding cruise-lines, I never thought the fare was anything to "write home about'. Now that their business model is such that passengers are attracted aboard with a "loss leader" fare comprising ocean transportation and "three hots and a cot", and otherwise expose them to a "bazaar" of extras not exactly peddled at loss leader prices, one of the "extras" they want to peddle is their "gourmet" restaurant, that is not an environment to enhance the regular fare served. This is in apparent contrast to back in my day, the cruise-lines passed along the savings from serving tax free alcohol to the passengers; understand that is "uh, not exactly" the case anymore.
All told, when I travel (looks like 15 nights this year), I am grateful when "the best surprise is no surprise" - and I don't think I'm alone on that point. Anyone here knows that Long Distance Amtrak travel is an entry into Adventureland. Maybe that is why they choose to stick with a standardized food menu and allow no deviations from that,
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
"Overall, the Amtrak food was just as good, and in some cases better than the food on the cruise ship"
Mike, if that is your experience, please change cruise lines.
On Celebrity and Royal Caribbean, for example, chefs use no pre-prepared food, with the exception of sugarless ice cream. They make everything themselves and in my opinion considering the moderate-range cost of these cruises (compared ships like the Queen Mary 2) they do a fine job. With the limitations of their galleys, the ingredients chefs are given to use, and the restrictions on chefs imposed by Amtrak management, Amtrak dining does not compare to my experiences on decent cruise ships.
posted
Don, that was our first and last Princess cruise. Next year we are going on Carnival to Cozumel and Belize. Our first Carnival trip was very nice and the food was definitely better than Princess.
That said, the Princess food was good, it just was not anything special. The Amtrak spare ribs were just as good as anything we had on the Princess.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
This likely as appropriate as any active topic at which to introduce this "off topic" material, but the linked Middle Seat column appearing in Today's Wall Street Journal (feature articles should be free content) titled "If The World Was Run Like Airlines", is simply "priceless": http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323393804578555500822061478.htmlPosts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Great article! Sadly though, it may not be off topic. Amtrak has not even begun to tap the revenue possibilities of auxiliary fees.
Seeing the fee revenue being raked in by airlines, Amtrak may institute new and increased fees. Amtrak already copies airline "capacity-controlled" fare pricing, where other passengers on your train may have paid considerably more or less than you. Can it resist the lure of egregious change fees, carry on and checked luggage fees, and on and on?
I hope Amtrak management is smart enough to recognize that the lack of add-on fees helps make rail travel more attractive to the budget-conscious if not time-conscious.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
First, Mr. Nadeau, I'm not certain if you are a WSJ subscriber, but if you are not, then I now know that their feature material is free content.
The extra for this extra for that airline pricing model simply represents a pay for what you use fare structure. It also assumes that any airline passenger has some kind of EFT card, be it credit, debit, or prepaid (don't you have to have one?), and that same assumption cannot be presumed for any Amtrak passenger (less so for a Greyhound). Further, since relatively few Amtrak trains (as distinct from routes) offer checked baggage, so it could be said the cost of handling a passenger's baggage is unavoidably built into the base fare. Food and Beverage (including water; who drinks nowadays from anything but the plastic bottle?) are, save Sleepers, and always have been pay-up.
The only change I could foresee would be Sleeping Car passengers paying individually for meals, as many may hold why should I pay for something I'm not going to eat (the 9PM Dinner served on 59, City of New Orleans, is simply later than many an elderly person wants to eat - try me on for size on that point). Now so far as airplanes go, I welcome the ala-carte pricing structure. I haven't checked a bag on an airplane in almost thirty years - anything I need can fit in my over the shoulder and under the seat (even a puddle jumper's, which seems to be about the only thing I fly on nowadays) flight bag. I'm 5'8", 163lb and fit perfectly well into a regular seat. A wine has to be paid for anywhere you go, save First Class or Auto Train.
Now where I think the airlines are missing the mark with their ala carte pricing is with carry on baggage. That carry on bag is the real premium and it should cost (problem would be how to enforce it; and I guess it would be a giveaway to those with "precious metal" reward plan standing), however the first checked bag should be free. Since I don't fly all that much (flew ORD-MIA-ORD Mar, booked ORD-HPN-ORD Aug; likely ORD-RIC-ORD Sep, and possibly ORD-ATL-OR Oct), I have to wonder if baggage fees have taught some people my first rule of travel; "If you can't carry it, don't bring it."
Finally, first checked bag free would put a stop to the "racket" I have observed pulled by passengers on the puddle jumpers I always seem to be on (hooray; ORD to MIA was an A-319) and that is they know their proffered carry on cannot be handled as such. There it gets grabbed as you board - and checked for free. Try stumbling over those people as you deplane.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I am very sorry for the late reply. When the FAQ instructions for having emailed notices of additional comments did not work for me I presumed the Railforum functionality was not compatible with my Mac computers. I recently discovered the problem was me not using the full reply form.
I fully support appropriate user fees for services such as excess checked luggage that if not charged would increase fares for all customers. I support fees for travelers who want better seats.
What I don't support are fees for functions that should be provided. Spirit Airlines charges $100.00 at the gate ($50.00 at the check in counter) if you don't pay in advance for one small carry on item! If paid online prior to online check in, the price falls to a mere $25.00 or $35.00. No fee should be charged at all.
quote:Originally posted by DonNadeau: Ryanair threatened to charge a fee for using a toilet on its shorter flights. Its CEO said passengers should take care of that need prior to boarding.
This cannot be real. Surely this was found in some 1960's time frame Mad Magazine.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Mad is certainly the word. Yet somehow the airline gets more passengers every year. The charges are such that a family of four going on vacation to Spain are often better off going on a mainstream airline like BA/BMI/Iberia because it will be cheaper than the drip charges of Ryanair. But people see headline fares of £1 and jump at it, not realising that they pay for everything else thereafter - starting from the £10/US$15 fee just to pay for your ticket - and they used to charge a credit card fee per passenger, even on the same booking transaction! Yes, you can avoid that fee by using an Electron card... if you can find anybody that issues them anymore.
They're out to get media coverage - and more's the pity, it works.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I've had a superb pea soup on an InterCity riding DB in Germany in the 80s.
I think I can prepare a mean KC strip.
There's a reason, and it's not just automation, pre-Amtrak dining car kitchens had 5 folks. Making it from scratch is always better than defrost, heat, and serve.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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