RailForum.com
TrainWeb.com

RAILforum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» RAILforum » Passenger Trains » Amtrak » History of New York's Penn Station

   
Author Topic: History of New York's Penn Station
Ocala Mike
Full Member
Member # 4657

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ocala Mike     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
PBS's American Experience will be broadcasting a show "The Rise and Fall of Penn Station" on Feb. 18, 2014 at 9PM. Check your local listings.

--------------------
Ocala Mike

Posts: 1496 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the tip, Mike. And not to hijack your thread, but on the theme of how not to design a new station a la MSG, I saw this article on the new station in Tacoma.
Posts: 2394 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
'Check your local listings' means just that with PBS. Simply because Mike's outlet (WMFE Orlando?) airs the production at that time, does not mean others follow suit.

My problem with PBS offerings such as 'American Experience' is that their Comcast On-Demand offerings are very limited and are never in HD. I do not have a DVR - I'd never figure out how to work it. My only means to watch DVD's is either here on the computer or sitting out in the auto (don't worry; Lexus has plenty of interlocks to make sure some idiot driver is not watching them while in motion)

So maybe I'll see it; or maybe I won't.

Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Henry Kisor
Full Member
Member # 4776

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Henry Kisor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's a very good five-minute trailer for the show here.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For the benefit of subscribers, and others who may 'get lucky', here is The Times editorial noted within the video Mr. Kisor submitted:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pdf?res=FB0D1EF93A59137B93C2AA178BD95F478685F9

Would have 'Old Penn' been destroyed today? no way. But the preservation movement hardly held the sway that it does today.

Many held 'good riddance' and looked forward to the opportunity to go into town for the Circus, Knicks, Rangers, and Sinatra without ever having to step outside of the new structure.

Preservation is of course the anathema of real estate developers, as it deprives any ownership party from making 'best use' of their property. Sure, go ahead and preserve Cincinnati - it's way out in the Styx, but for a structure sitting atop some of the pricest rock on this planet, it is something different. Anyone laying eyes upon 'Old Penn' during the 50's and 60's, would quickly dismiss it as an eyesore with its walls washed only head high, the WWII blackout paint peeling off the skylights, tasteless concessions abounding, and the insult of all, the 'flying saucer' ticket cage erected in the concourse so that more space could be free for concessions, which, take it from one who had 'been there done that' did nothing to expedite the process of obtaining reserved accommodations, looked like 'the Martians have landed' from the sci-fi flicks prevalent during that era.

Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ocala Mike
Full Member
Member # 4657

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ocala Mike     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:


Simply because Mike's outlet (WMFE Orlando?) airs the production at that time, does not mean others follow suit.


Very true, Gil, and because I know you like to keep your call signs straight, WMFE is now WUCF (since 2011). I actually get 3 different PBS feeds via DirecTV, out of Orlando, Daytona, and Cocoa. I've still managed to miss certain programs I wanted to see (most notably Independent Lens features) that were not carried by any of them. I have a feeling the one about Penn Station will be shown on WUCF, although possibly a day late.

--------------------
Ocala Mike

Posts: 1496 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sbalax
Full Member
Member # 2801

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sbalax     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We now get PBS on cable (COX) from Orange County because Los Angeles no longer has a PBS channel. The Saturday night programming is vintage Lawrence Welk…

Frank in sunny and warm SBA

Posts: 2154 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
During my years with the MILW, I had occasion to visit on RR business, the offices of Tishman/Spyer, who were then the property managers for 10 120 and 222 South Riverside Plaza - the buildings atop CUS N of Jackson. At the time, Tishman's offices were at 666 Fifth Ave - be it assured a very non-descript building obviously atop 'quite' pricey land. As my contact there explained, no developer in NY wanted to be part of a building with any archetectural significance - don't need any preservationationist in the way of 'best use'.
Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jerome Nicholson
Full Member
Member # 3116

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jerome Nicholson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr. Norman, would Grand Central have matched that description in that same era? The preservation movement might have saved Penn if GCT had been demolished first.
And I'm shocked that you are DVR - phobic. If you can operate your computer, you can certainly learn how to use a Comcast DVR or a TiVo. Do you have a smartphone or a tablet? Either DVR is easier. And both are easier to use than a VCR used to be. Head out to a Best Buy or similar store or maybe the cable office and play with one.
Luckily for me, American Experience comes on at a regular time here in Richmond. I'll be recording it. If you want a DVD, I'll make one for you. And I also have their shows about Grand Central, and the Rise and Fall of the Streamliners. (that one was a masterpiece)!
Too bad VCRs hadn't been invented when they had their show on Cincinnatti Union Terminal! [Frown]
C

Posts: 471 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ocala Mike
Full Member
Member # 4657

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ocala Mike     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Gil is technologically challenged, like me. Outside of my ancient desktop computer and a cell phone for my wife and I, I am a dinosaur. We own no "I" - anythings, we don't record anything on our DirecTV, and our 5-1/2 year old grandson can "smart phone" circles around us when he visits. We like it that way.

--------------------
Ocala Mike

Posts: 1496 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RRRICH
Full Member
Member # 1418

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for RRRICH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I too am "technologically challenged" -- I can barely buy anything electronic (new software, etc.) without having to CALL (not e-mail!) Tech Support at least 5 times. My cell phone is simply that -- a phone. I don't have Internet on it, apps, or anything fancy. I don't subscribe to Face Book. This AM I got a device which supposedly converts old vinyl record albums to CD/mp3 format, so I imagine it'll take me most of the day to figure out how it works.....
Posts: 2427 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jerome Nicholson:
Mr. Norman, would Grand Central have matched that description in that same era? The preservation movement might have saved Penn if GCT had been demolished first.

Mr. Nicholson, please excuse my parsing of your immediate post:

Here are two photos taken Nov 22, 1963; the first shows passengers aboard a New Haven train that looks a little 'ratty'. Let it be noted those cars, #44XX MU's, at that time were only NINE years old.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iU1pVKNPRKI/Uo6SO4LPrRI/AAAAAAAASok/HvleExUq_v4/s1600/+Kennedy.jpg

Of interest, everybody did as I still do today - read the paper.

Here is a photo of GCT same day that shows the array of bill boards making the place look much alike Times Square.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/11/15/ap6311250408_0_slide-667995e1828f878a1e0b78a677a2509a9aef2b9d-s6-c30.jpg

But to best answer the 'mirror mirror on the wall, which one was the dumpiest of all?' somehow I think 'Old Penn' edged out GCT.
quote:
Originally posted by Jerome Nicholson:
And I'm shocked that you are DVR - phobic. If you can operate your computer, you can certainly learn how to use a Comcast DVR or a TiVo.

Now regarding the remainder of your posting, first PLEASE take note that I take no umbrage whatever with such; it is probably a case of simply 'I don't care'. I own one DVD; that is taken while Muti rehearsed with an overseas orchestra for a performance of Berlioz 'LeLio', which for some reason, likely because it is European made, it will not play on my computer, but will play in the auto.
quote:
Originally posted by Jerome Nicholson:
Do you have a smartphone or a tablet?

My 'roster' of 'electronic playthings' beyond my 2007 vintage Dell desktop with an XP OS (MS still supports it) consists of an LG 'clamshell' phone, also 2007 vintage, which makes and receives phone calls and, as I surprisingly learned, also texts.

I first had occasion to text this past August when I was meeting my Niece at Lincoln Center for a Mostly Mozart concert. The only way she communicates, except with my Sister (her Mother), is by text. So I asked Verizon to hook it up for my four day visit plus the day before so I could 'tune up'. When the trip was over, I asked them to turn texting off - and haven't missed it since. Since that trip, I have received two cell phone calls - one was a telemarketing robocall - and have made none.

Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonNadeau
Full Member
Member # 61606

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for DonNadeau   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My problem is that the old NY Penn was replaced by the worst large transportation facility that I have ever experienced. It provides a horrible environment in nearly every way except perhaps to those who have not experienced anything better. Those "air rights" have taken a terrible toll.

One the bright side, NY Penn does offer seamless connections to local transportation, in contrast to Chicago Union Station, and as Mr. Norman mentioned also to major sporting and entertainment events. These attributes do not begin to compensate for what people experience using this facility each day.

--------------------
@DonNadeau

Posts: 366 | From: Iowa | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geoff Mayo
Full Member
Member # 153

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Geoff Mayo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
which for some reason, likely because it is European made, it will not play on my computer, but will play in the auto.

Being "European made" has absolutely no relevance to it working or not. An amusing naivety which I'll generously put down to ignorance rather than more ominous undertones that could easily be read from that statement.

What you probably discovering is that the DVD is region encoded - a ploy that serves no purpose to us consumers and is entirely for the record/movie company protection racket. Basically they don't want you perfectly legally importing any DVDs from another country that might sell for a lot less (even with import duty imposed), even though the DVDs were pressed in exactly the same factory.

Now, as to why it works in your car and not in your computer is probably because the former handily ignores the region encoding, and the latter more strictly adheres to it. I always buy multi-region DVD players for this reason.

Music DVDs often don't have region encoding, however, so this surprises me a little.

--------------------
Geoff M.

Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jerome Nicholson
Full Member
Member # 3116

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jerome Nicholson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr. Norman, Your computer sounds like the one I bought years ago. It now gathers cobwebs in the corner while most of its functions are now handled by my Android phone and my tablet. I STILL haven't learned half of their uses!
I say most functions because I type these messages to you on the old HP Compaq computer at work! I also have devices that can convert LP records, thae cassettes, and VHS tapes to MP3 files on my 2007 Dell computer and send them to the "cloud" where I can access them from anywhere. That's if I ever get around to using them. I bought them over a year ago and they also sit in a corner!
Maybe one day.....

Posts: 471 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It might be hard to to believe, but during the '80's, I was 'first kid on the block' with the playthings of the day.

I first had a personal computer during 1983 - an Apple 2E; it was fine, but is the only Apple product I have ever bought. I had a cell phone permanently mounted in my auto - a 1985 Buick - back in those days, the tagline was 'when you're out of touch, you're out of business.' It was simply a tool for a business person and hardly one for a ten year old kid receiving and sending a whole lot of meaningless nothing.

I had a FAX machine during 1986.

But then I lost my edge; I guess I started to wonder who needs all this stuff? I went online during 1999 with a Dell system - and that was prompted by that my then-current 'box' purchased during 1993 (a PC) was not Y2K compatible. Dial-up was fine, and that was replaced with the present Dell system during 2007 when the previous started to 'act up'.

My phone history has been three permanently mounted car phones in 1985, 1988, and 1992 autos, However, during 1996, I leased an auto (never do that again) and could only have a 'bag phone' or a cell phone about the size of a woman's purse. During 2003, that bag phone died and was replaced with a reconditioned 'brick phone' - that died during 2007 - and while I was on a trip. So I hurried off to the same Verizon outlet in Stamford my Sister had used for her present phone, and bought for $250, the LG clamshell I have to this day.

The FAX's separate phone line is long gone, and today I just use it for a copier,or if I want to send a FAX, I'll hook it up to my phone line.

And so, as Robert De Niro said at the end of 'Casino', which I think was the best of the Scorsese gangland movies, 'and that's that'.

Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Henry Kisor
Full Member
Member # 4776

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Henry Kisor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GBN, it sounds as if you have a firm grasp of your needs. But mine are vastly different.

As a deaf person I depend a great deal on electronic communications (text messaging and email) as well as writing (word processing software) and investing (spreadsheeting).

That means frequent upgrading (every two or three years) for reliability as well as increased speed. My first computer, in 1981, was an Osborne 1. I've gone through Radio Shack, Heathkit, Dell and IBM PCs, and in the early '90s switched to Apple because my place of employment did. Right now I have a 2013 Mac mini for home and a 2012 Macbook Air for the road.

I gave up my last text pager in 2006 when I retired, but decided to buy an iPhone 5s last week, because carting even a lightweight Macbook Air everywhere I went just got old.

Not bad for age 73, eh? All the younkers express incredulity that such a geezer is as connected as they are (within reason).

My spouse, of course, is convinced I am just a technogeek with too much time and disposable income on his hands.

You can understand why I am so eagerly anticipating wireless coming to Amtrak trains everywhere, huh?

Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just like you, Mr. Kisor, of course I use this computer for productive purposes beyond that of participating at this and Railroad Net.

So far as transportation and lodging, I can't think of when I last booked an Amtrak, air, hotel, or rented auto by means other than on-line. I also have used Amtrak e-tickets and printed United boarding passes (whoops I lied; I did use the phone with United this past March when going to KMIA, they offered a last minute at e-check-in First Class upgrade at a price acceptable to me. However, after learning only one seat was available and I would have been committed had I clicked before knowing the seat, I resorted to the phone to find out which First Class seat it would be. On learning it was a window, I then finished the upgrade online).

I also regularly trade securities online.

Retail purchases, I think I have had three of such in this life - out of town flowers (Pro Flowers the least of evils; you can actually unsubscribe from their bombardments). I've attempted a few others but gave up and resorted to the phone. E-Bay, Craig's List, et al; never been near 'em.

I have two games; Flight and Train simulators. You'd be amazed what you can learn about flight from the latter. In fact my United FA neighbor and friend once said to me 'Bernouli's Law? I haven't heard that one since I was in 'StewSchool' over thirty years ago'.

Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Henry Kisor
Full Member
Member # 4776

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Henry Kisor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GBN, even though I have held private pilot certification for 18 years, I was never able to land a Flight Simulator airplane at Meigs, so gave up on the game.

At the moment I am teaching myself how to fly a toy "nanocopter" around the living room. It is extremely difficult to learn. (I bought the toy as training wheels for a larger drone that I will use as research for a new mystery novel.)

Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr. Kisor, regarding KCGX, lest we forget:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV4tgjSPgks

Of interest, Rwy 18-36 (the only) was 3899ft. By contrast KORD Rwy 4L-22R (the shortest) is 7500ft.

I've 'landed' the FS 737 at 'KCGX' - and on occasion 'safely'.

Posts: 9391 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
'The Rise and Fall of Penn Station' - a 5 minute trailer, link provided from another site.

Penn Station trailer

Posts: 2394 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonNadeau
Full Member
Member # 61606

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for DonNadeau   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@palmland Thank you.

This says it all:
"One entered the city like a God. Now one scuttles in like a rat.”
-Vincent Scully

Unless I missed something, the website gives no information on how to view the entire film.

--------------------
@DonNadeau

Posts: 366 | From: Iowa | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geoff Mayo
Full Member
Member # 153

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Geoff Mayo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An example of a good landing in recent times was the Polish LOT B767-300ER that lost hydraulic fluid and was unable to extend its landing gear by any means. Video shows it landing perfectly level and gently. End result: no injuries, though the airframe was written off. Just a slight tilt one way or the other and the result could have been so very different.

--------------------
Geoff M.

Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Henry Kisor
Full Member
Member # 4776

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Henry Kisor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GBN, judging from the mushy approach on final and the somewhat bouncy touchdown, that 727 was coming in a just a hair above stalling speed. Normally that aircraft, I am told, was landed 10-15 knots faster than stalling for better control, and the nose immediately plunked down to get rubber on the tarmac for better controlled braking. It was an excellent short-field landing, although to the uninitiated it might have looked sloppy.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Railroad Bob
Full Member
Member # 3508

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Railroad Bob     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DonNadeau:

"One entered the city like a God. Now one scuttles in like a rat.”
-Vincent Scully

[/QB]

Ohh. Quoting Vin Scully. Greatest living baseball philosopher/play-by-play man. It's a gift just to hear his velvet tones. Do not have to be a Dodger fan, to know his greatness...
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Agreed, RRBob. Listening to Scully do play by play on the radio is so much better than watching on TV. And I'm an ardent Braves fan.
Posts: 2394 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tanner929
Full Member
Member # 3720

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tanner929     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey Guys, The famous quote "One entered the city like a God. Now one scuttles in like a rat.” Was not said by Vin Scully the Dodger broadcaster, but by Vincent Scully a renowned Yale professor architect historian, still living at 93.

Looking forward to seeing this documentary, their have been some articles in the New York papers concerning the MTA's "new" plans for an Updated Penn Station, unfortunately many of the plans are a totally new complex, legal fights with the Madison Square Garden Corps lease. MSG just completed a hugh renovation job so I don't see them moving anytime soon. The new plans don't look to include the McKim, White Post Office that was the sister building to the original Penn.

Like the old Pennsylvania RR and Penn Central the MTA will spend money on things other than real infrastructure.

Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Home Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2




Copyright © 2007-2016 TrainWeb, Inc. Top of Page|TrainWeb|About Us|Advertise With Us|Contact Us