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There has been much discussion at other sites regarding the Food Service experiment that Amtrak is now trying out on-board 91-92, Silver Star.
However, overlooked within such discussion is how eating habits have changed in American society since RPSA70 was enacted, with that legislation directing the NRPC to offer Dining (I think that word was used as distinct from Food) service on the LD trains. However that point is moot in that subsequent legislation, ARAA97 as I recall, repealed that provision. 1970 still saw the majority of folk eating three meals a day, and two of those meals were traditionally "we all sit down together" family style of "Leave it to Beaver" lore.
But times have changed; first of course is the decline of the two adult and children household. Secondly, so many occupations that were traditionally "9 to 5" now have other 'assigned hours'. Even in traditional two adults and kids households, kids have so many after school activities, there is no way all members of a household will sit down together. Eating habits from the traditional "three hots" have greatly changed. I myself, even having grown up in that "Leave it to Beaver" model, only eat twice a day and with no between meal snacking. My Niece (related by blood) on the other hand eats some nine times a day just "grazing" on salads, and at 38, she still "looks good'.
Now turning to travel, which has always represented a disruption from established routines, the "three hots" model is simply in another age. Lest we forget, airlines once offered "meal service appropriate to time of day and length of flight". Try that one on for size nowadays (I can recall flying forty years ago ORD-MSP on, say, in Coach a 7AM flight and being served a hot Breakfast; definitely so ORD-LGA). Now for all intent, to have a complimentary meal in Coach, you must fly overseas. Even hotel brands are moving away from same model. In particular is Marriott Courtyard, as that used to be my preferred mid-level brand, when they offered a full service (pay) Breakfast buffet. Now, as the General Manager of one such, told me, "it is a pitch to the Millennials". They now offer chain wide "Bistro" or otherwise a "MickeyD" experience of "line up and pay up" food and beverage service, with early to late serving hours. This lady further shared that it has met resistance from my (she said "our"; just being tactful) demographic. She further went on to note that the owners of the seven year old property had to "spring" some $2.5m to "upgrade" to the new model. Since Starbucks coffee is part of the new model, that means a "cut" for them on every cup served (no wonder that waitresses no longer make rounds with refills). Because of her courtesy (I got Breakfast "comped'), I'll of course stay at that Courtyard again; others "forget it'. Hilton Garden has now become my preferred brand at that level.
But to close this "sociological jabber" on a rail related note, perhaps the expensive and vulnerable to the "Micascope", delivery of Food Service needs to be reevaluated. The only problem is of course that 25 traditional Diners are on order - and if a change is to be made to the existing food service model on the LDSL (single level) trains, you can be sure those cars will be under the "Micascope" (of course, had the contractor established a plant in, say, Sanford FL, the "scope" would have conveniently been like the NYSE was yesterday).
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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There is anecdotally good sleeper bookings on the "meals not included" Star - or, put another way, there is less availability for space if trying to book on the Amtrak website. So I suppose as an experiment still in its early days, it's kind of working.
While my recent-ish Empire Builder trip was perfectly adequate in terms of food, quality, and quantity, variety was not something that was offered beyond the strict "3 choices and that's yer lot" which is a little repetitive for a 48-hour journey - especially for the vegetarians I guess.
I still struggle to see how Amtrak loses so much money on meal services. Other long haul railways around the world can do it without losing so much so what is going wrong? And no I don't mean the likes of the (Eastern) Orient Express, Blue Train, or other luxury trains, but the trains accessible to everyone.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I think the new diners can be adapted to the new dining patterns of society. I'm not so sure that Amtrak management will be able to adapt to the new reality, however.
I've written before that Amtrak's food service model doesn't really meet the needs of long distance train travelers. Opening the diner for 3 daily meals at their proper times doesn't reflect the reality of what's going on during a train trip. The current diner plan forces 3 dining surges and then creates 2 periods of lull in the diners. If Amtrak worked to spread out the surges and build demand during slow times, the diner would operate more efficiently and, perhaps, more economically.
Unless you have an early morning arrival, nobody wants to get up at 7am to eat breakfast on an LD trip. Amtrak should have a continental breakfast available for anyone departing at an early station stop, but for continuing passengers, a better plan would be for a daily brunch that starts about 8am and continues until about 2pm. Let the passengers sleep as late as they want--knowing that a full, hot meal will be available when they wake up. French toast at noon? Sure. BLT at 10am? No problem.
The dinner service should also start by 3pm and continue until 9pm. If a 48 seat diner is open for 6 hours and each patron is allotted 60 minutes for dinner, that would allow 288 passengers to be served every night at a more efficient and economic pace because by eliminating the surges and filling the lulls, Amtrak would be able to eliminate the demand for surge staffing in the dining car, too.
Three meals a day is also too much food for an LD trip. Nobody is working up an appetite looking out the windows at the western scenery or the eastern pines. Brunch and dinner is plenty of sustenance for anyone on an Amtrak trip.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Traditional dining is still out there, the issue is, Amtrak is very, very high priced in terms of space:service.
I travel to hotels that are not merely world class, they are the places that define world class to world class properties. I pay about as much at those places as I would for a full bedroom on a superliner.
Quality of appointments, quality of the space, quality of the service ... Amtrak is not competitive with the tier it price points to.
And ... the folks in the tier it price points to (that would be us, Mr Norman), know what right looks like ... and they DO tend to sit down and dine.
Remember also, even before Amtrak, both Santa Fe and UP had different dining for different passengers. The coach passengers could get an economical meal, including lunch counter (pretty darn fast food) service, the Pullman passengers got the tablecloth and good silver gig.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I've almost always found that a sleeper (roomette) fare is pretty equivalent to a First Class (F) fare on an airline. Today, for a trip in October, I can buy an F ticket to Chicago for $399; Amtrak shows a roomette available for $422. So my question becomes: what does Amtrak provide in terms of service that the airlines can't match? Can Amtrak provide the level of service that makes me want to spend the extra time on a train trip? Obviously, the airplane is going to win on speed, but can Amtrak provide a high enough level of service that the train trip will be an enjoyable experience instead of a test of endurance?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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I agree with Vincent206 that Amtrak really should keep the diner open with no breaks in service hours. Where is it written that one should have to eat breakfast at 8 am? IF Amtrak really wanted to do a really good job, it would do what Mr. Norman suggests -- curry favor with influential politicians by seeing to it that important operations are established in those politicians' states.
("Micscope" -- VERY clever, Mr. Norman!)
PullmanCo makes a very good point -- Amtrak really must provide service that matches the prices it charges.
But given the current problems at Amtrak, we who support passenger trains must work even harder to preserve what we have and make it better.
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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I just returned from a round trip on the Empire Builder from Portland to Whitefish, MT. (trains 28 & 27).
I like Vincent's suggestion of dinner service between 3PM and 9PM. However, one of the most enjoyable experiences on a LD train, the Coast Starlight, for me was an early breakfast just before Klamath Falls, at sunup. I think one should be able to have an early breakfast. I also like Mr. Pullman's suggestion about different meal services for different passengers, as on the UP & Santa Fe. ******************** Back to my trip on the EB to Whitefish.
EB train #28, in Portland, looked like someone just took it out of mothballs. The paint job was all scratched-up and the train was filthy-dirty on the outside. Can't Amtrak, at least, clean the windows before the trip?
As there is no dining car on either #28 or #27, I thought we would be served a cheese and fruit plate, which someone said was very good. We were offered 3 box dinners, beef, chicken, and fish. I chose the beef. What I received was a sectional box meal with chunks of beef, a roll, fruit, and some sort of desert. All very cold. Can't Amtrak figure out a way to microwave the dinners, beforehand, as to provide a hot meal? The beef was not good, probably a few cuts above dog food. On the way back, we got another cold box lunch for breakfast, croissant with ham, fruit, and some sort of desert which was un-edible. I wonder, since #27 & #28 don't have diners, if they could have a bistro car, for Portland to Spokane and back, to serve hot, microwaved food? ************************* Other anecdotes:
*The train stopped at Begin-White Salmon for about 2.5 hours. A few miles, ahead, a forest fire had swept across the tracks and we had to wait for an all-clear from the forestry service. Then they stuck some sort of locomotive fire truck ,which ran just ahead of our train, to put out any track ties that were still aflame (!) At least that's what they said over the PA system.
*The train attendant, going, was functionally adequate. The one on the return trip was less than functionally adequate.
*There was a "farmers' market" going on, in Whitefish, and it was incredibly difficult finding a place to park. Much better, the next day, when the market ended.
*There is a piano in the Whitefish depot. A girl came by (I think as a volunteer) and played the piano during the wait for the westbound Builder. Very nice.
*While I was waiting for EB train #28, in the Metropolitan Lounge at Portland Union Station, the northbound Coast Starlight came in to the station (approx. 3:30-4:00 PM). It seemed like half of the passengers, in the Lounge, left to board the CS. Knowing that the Metropolitan Lounge is only for passengers with sleepers and Business Class, I asked the lounge attendant if the passengers, leaving, were all business class. He said "yes". It appears that Business Class passengers and their ability to use the M. Lounge has become a quite popular attraction for the Starlight. It was near 100 deg. in Portland and very hot in the regular station waiting room, but the Metropolitan Lounge was air conditioned.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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The below makes my point. If I flew First Class Air with something other than short snack distance you'd bet the food would be passable.
quote:Originally posted by yukon11:
As there is no dining car on either #28 or #27, I thought we would be served a cheese and fruit plate, which someone said was very good. We were offered 3 box dinners, beef, chicken, and fish. I chose the beef. What I received was a sectional box meal with chunks of beef, a roll, fruit, and some sort of desert. All very cold. Can't Amtrak figure out a way to microwave the dinners, beforehand, as to provide a hot meal? The beef was not good, probably a few cuts above dog food. On the way back, we got another cold box lunch for breakfast, croissant with ham, fruit, and some sort of desert which was un-edible. I wonder, since #27 & #28 don't have diners, if they could have a bistro car, for Portland to Spokane and back, to serve hot, microwaved food? Richard
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In defense of Amtrak, on the westbound EB Portland section my wife and I actually enjoyed the continental breakfast. It was definitely not standard Amtrak fare but a cut above. Since we normally eat a light breakfast anyway, it suited us. The best part though was that the attendant brought it to our room (he offered) and we enjoyed our morning coffee while still in the lower berth gazing out the window. Quite a treat as the mist burned off and revealed the great river with various vessels cruising along it.
I think this speaks to the need for Amtrak to be more creative in their meal offerings. Off site prepared food can be ok. That big window in the diner or a cozy room is what makes the meal special on a train. Business class food on a plane can be quite good and frankly with the inconsistent service levels on Amtrak, I'm ok with picking it up at the counter and taking it to a table to eat. While I enjoy fine dining as much as anyone, I don't think it's possible any longer on Amtrak. Given a choice between fake tablecloths, cheap utensils, poor service and better quality food that you serve yourself, I take the latter.
The only way to go back to the good old days is 'Travel Pullman' on IP offerings.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Mr. Palmland: The dinner and breakfast box was provided in the snack car, below the lounge car. You had to eat in the lounge car or take the meal back to your sleeper.
If the states of Oregon and Washington could get together for a Cascade train, Portland to Spokane, I think it would be quite popular. I guess the downside of that idea is that, other than the tri-cities area, not many major towns between Portland and Spokane.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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1) Where are people commuting on I-5? That's the freeway competing with the rails.
2) Can either Washington, Oregon, or both design a route which is FASTER than I-5, less expensive per trip (fare cost) than 2 pax to a car on I-5, and can generate an operating profit?
If yes, then do it, and market the enviro friendliness of it to heck and gone.
To my way of thinking, modern ex-urb commuter rail should have: - Coaches with table space (laptops and writing) - Power for each pair of seats - Powerful wi-fi - Food and beverage every few cars (beer is good in the evening, donuts, coffee and fruit in the morning).
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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If I have to drive to Portland for business purposes, my mileage reimbursement is over $250. That alone makes Amtrak more economical if my meeting is anywhere near Portland Union Station. For leisure trips, there is no mileage reimbursement and the cost of driving is usually calculated as only the variable expenses (gas and parking), so sometimes the train doesn't look as attractive. But I've driven enough times to Portland to know how tiring and tedious that trip can be. So unless someone else is going to do the driving, the train is my preferred mode if the schedules and destination are convenient.
I took a recent day trip to Portland with a business colleague who defines himself as a "fiscal conservative" and had never before set foot on that tax-sucking governmental monstrosity called Amtrak. Fortunately, on the day of our trip Amtrak was punctual (both trains actually ran a little ahead of schedule), so my colleague got a look at the best of Amtrak and he was impressed. He even complimented the Mac & Cheese from the Bistro car. I won't recommend he take Amtrak for his next business trip to the Bay Area, but I don't usually use the Coast Starlight for my long(er) distance business trips either.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Doing the Missionary Work Vincent. Good for you.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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