posted
Widely circulated in the media is the story that Ringling Brothers will fold the tents this coming May. Of interest around these parts is what will happen to the rail equipment?
Relying on a TRAINS article a while back, the cars have been "gutted" to such extent that their heritage is simply gone. Of note is that at one time, ex-NYC "Sandy Creek" bore an RBBX reporting mark. However that car was saved and is part of the NS "Executrain" fleet liveried in Tuscan Red.
Recently, I recall a display ad in The Times not long ago where Feld Entertainment, RBBB owner, was advertising to fill a Transportation Coordinator position. I guess such will have several years of "mop up" to do with the railcars.
Somehow, after being stripped of mechanical parts of use to PV owners, they'll become razor blades.
Smooth shaving, gents.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Thank You, Mr. Norman, for pointing out that something positive could come out of the death of this American institution: That a number of these cars could be bought by private individuals and maybe corporations, and rebuilt to suit the needs of their new owners.
I do not agree that most of these cars will end up as razor blades, tin cans, or Toyotas.
At Least I hope NOT !!
These cars are probably not Amtrak Certified. However, that is a One-time expense that in my opinion would be well worth doing. Think about it EVERYTHING in these cars works: HVAC, HEP, Trucks !!, Retention Toilets, Roller Bearings, Diaphragms, etc.
These cars are historic in their own right, as RBB&B Circus Train cars, and a few of them should be preserved as they are now.
IMO these cars although shorn of all traces of their historic origins are still worth saving and repurposing.
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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The circus train cars are inspected by Amtrak.
quote:Amtrak inspects and certifies the mechanical aspects of new and refurbished cars that join the unit from the Ringling Bros. railcar rebuilding shop in Florida.
What sort of access arrangement does RBBB have with the freight railroads? I found YouTube vids with various Amtrak, CSX and NS locos. I suppose RBBB contracts with the freight roads and Amtrak for power and T&E crews. Are there any other private companies that have regular access to freight tracks like the circus trains?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gil, et al -- The Circus Train is NOT an Amtrak train, nor is it -- AFAIK -- operating under Amtrak's insurance "umbrella", so AFAIK none of its cars are required to be Amtrak Certified. I don't know if all rolling stock operating on the NEC must be Amtrak certified, but I don't think so.
I do not claim to be an expert in this area, but I do know that all rolling stock in every excursion train that operates under the Amtrak insurance "umbrella" must be Amtrak Certified. Example: when the SP 4449 went to Owosso, MI, in 2009, The crew-baggage car ,"Gordon Zimmerman, had to be made fully Amtrak Certified in order to be in her train on the return trip from Owosso, MI to Portland, OR.
If an excursion is operated without getting insurance thru Amtrak cars do NOT need to be Amtrak Certified. Therefore none of the Circus Train's cars are required to be Amtrak Certified AFAIK.
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Anyone, do any other circus troupes use rail transportation? Do any still have animal acts?
It seems as if the "trouper" business model has been replaced with fixed locations in population centers and with performers who can make a conscious decision that circus art is to be their profession.
The Associated Press has prepared an article with depth regarding the closing. I could not help to see how rail travel is noted - as if using such was a factor.
Fair Use:
The competitor in many ways is time," said Feld, adding that transporting the show by rail and other circus quirks — such as providing a traveling school for performers' children— are throwbacks to another era
Actually, I think the sports news outlets kind of spilled the beans around these parts during Thanksgiving. They were remarking how both the Bulls and Hawks (NBA, NHL) had to embark on their two week road trips as the Circus was playing at their arena - the United Center. Historically both teams have not helped their standings on this road trip. But two different sports newscasters on two different outlets I frequent made mention to the effect of "this could be the last year of these road trips" without saying further.
But what's all this to me; I went to the Circus as a kid - once; and sports, "to each his own".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
This is from a far distant past memory, so take it for what it is worth:
The circus train is self contained so far as internal lights, power, etc., is concerned, therefore there any freight unit can haul the train. Plus, so far as speed limits and other considerations the circus train is a freight train, including speed limits, and may have a speed limit below the normal freight speed. As to "Amtrak certified", my brief period of railroad employment ended before Amtrak began. If my memory is good, on a line with a 50 mph freight limit a speed limit of 35 mph was given specifically for circus trains.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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The current owners of the RBBB circus also own some other arena type shows: Monster Jam, Supercross and they manage some of the travelling Disney shows. I don't know if they use railroads to transport those shows from city to city.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Most current RBBX equipment is former UP, much of it approaching 70 years old. The roster shows the bulk are postwar coaches from ACF, P-S, and Saint Louis Car Company. There are a few Budd cars, both sleepers (ex 10-6 PACIFIC series) and coaches in the fleet. The newest car is about 54 years old.
Frankly, given Amtrak's operational needs, I see very little of this equipment making its trip to the Grove. If it does, I suspect it'll be for parts.
I'd not be surprised Amtrak insisted on mechanical inspections. If any of this moved on the NEC, it moved on Amtrak's own rails. That'd simply be prudent for them.
Key point is UP did a LOT with aluminum cars. Much of this stuff will end up in soda cans and foil.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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TRAINS Newswire presently offers free access to their material. Those who do not subscribe, here's your chance.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Read it. Does not change my thoughts. These are very old cars. They are from a variety of builders, though with UP, they may well be to the same construction drawings. Many are aluminum, a few are stainless, a very few are Cor-Ten.
They're all no more than 10 years away from their next major life inspection.
There may be some useful parts which meet Amtrak/FRA guidelines (trucks, draft gear). Even so, I doubt most of these cars will see anything other than a scrapper's torch.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
@GBN: Feld has six different types of shows it operates:
- Monster Jam - Supercross - ArenaCross - Marvel Universe Live - Disney On Ice - Disney Live
There's plenty of work for a corporate transportation coordinator, when you consider the semis and the busses needed to make a touring show happen. (Just think what will be needed for the first tour of HAMILTON).
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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When thinking of the age, also think of the wear and tear. Considering the annual mileage and operating speeds of these cars, mechanically and physically they have been very gently used for many years. That is, they load up, move between points at moderate to low speeds, unload, and sit while the show is being performed. After the show is over, load up and do the move, unload, and sit again, etc.
Thus they are not near as old by usage as they would be if these years had been spent in regular passenger service, and likely not even if this had been some form of excursion service.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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At first glance, the announced shutdown of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus would appear to be a boon to railway passenger car preservation. There may suddenly be available a vast fleet of heritage passenger cars that Ringling Bros. maintained in excellent mechanical condition. You won’t find rust and rot in Ringling’s fleet, all of which has been equipped with head-end electrical power.
The problem for museums and preservationists is there is a little if anything left of the original interiors, says Brad Black, a vice president with Virginkar & Associates, Inc., which consults on passenger car and rail transit rolling stock, equipment, and locomotive projects. Black says the cars have been “tunneled out,” with the interiors stripped to empty shells. So the cars bear no resemblance to when they were in their previous service. In fact, Black says, in recent years Ringling has been purchasing old coaches rather than sleeping cars, because there are fewer interior walls to tear out
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Gentlemen -- Thanks very much for the info. I appreciate that.
I learned on another forum from a RBB&B circus employee that their cars are all Amtrak-certified. I was wrong, and apologize for my erroneous statements.
Question: Wasn't it fairly common for railroads themselves to "tube" some of their own cars in order to make them into what they needed at the time" And haven't private car owners done that, too, sometimes? So -- if the shells and trucks are in excellent condition, which Mr. Norman's quote from the Trains Newswire says they are, wouldn't there be a market for at least some of these cars?
Please bear in mind that these cars have been in Ringling Bros. Barnum & Bailey Circus Train service for 50 to 70 years, which makes them historic artifacts in their won right -- as excellent examples of how RBB&B circus performers and animals and equipment traveled, and -- from what I read elsewhere -- the performers also lived in them off-season, if they so wished.
I very much hope that most of those RBB&B Circus Train cars will be saved, and that someone will start of group to save some of them as-is as part of some kind of RBB&B Circus Museum.
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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Margaret, I'm certain that some of the cars will find their way to Baraboo for some kind of "Life aboard the Train" exhibit.
Again as I noted when originating this topic, ex-NYC "Sandy Creek" Century Obs was saved and, ironically, is now liveried in PRR Tuscan Red as an NS "Executrain" car.
Incidentially, let it be noted that a Circus Train" is Freight; I have reviewed "in the line of duty" Waybills for the movement of such over the MILW.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
This seems like an ideal opportunity for one of the cruise train operators or for an operator of one of the state supported services. Although I don't think IP would be one of them given the rumors of their financial stress.
For those interested it seems ideal, based on recent reports (if accurate): Amtrak certified, mechanically and structurally sound cars that could be easily gutted again for the owners' new purpose.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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WHEN these go on the market, the price of PV will go down...dramatically. It's a supply/demand thing.
I'll bet a dinner at Jack Stack KC Freight House that at least some PV currently in mechanical renovation will be abandoned. Why renovate when you can get a certified car inexpensively?
SFAIK, only a few cars have been completely gutted and rebuilt from the walls in. Most have been remodels within the basic design. That said, there aren't many really good lounges/dance cars, but those also don't have revenue seats for the PV owner (if he/she isn't touring in it anyway).
I truly believe what we will see is folks stocking up on trucks, couplers/draft gear, generators, HVAC, ad infinitum. The shells themselves:
Passenger car collectors, tourist railroads, and others now have the opportunity to bid on passenger cars, flat cars, and other pieces of equipment through a new online portal. There are a total of 127 railcars available for bid.
Interested parties will have the chance to bid on multiple pieces of equipment at once using a pull-down menu on a newly created web page. The page includes a spreadsheet-like format that shows car specifications, builder information, and built-date, as well as reporting marks and images of each railcar.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Considering Pullman Rail Journeys appears to be no longer doing business, can you say prices in the private varnish market are about to plummet?
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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As a note, the Pullman-Standard equipment looks to be mainly Union Pacific's big lot of coaches built in 1950. These cars have only 13 more years to their second PC-2 inspection!
They are definitely interior (and some exterior)rebuilds, having been one big bay of windows beforehand for 44 coach seats.
Looking at the published plans, these cars were bought for their exteriors, the interior plans are completely different from Pullman Company designs, be the cars built by P-S, Budd, or ACF.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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