RailForum.com
TrainWeb.com

RAILforum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» RAILforum » Passenger Trains » Amtrak » Zephyr: In Possible Danger

   
Author Topic: Zephyr: In Possible Danger
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Included in a letter from an NARP official to Mr. Anderson is this, to some, ominous clip:
quote:
Already reliable sources confirm that Amtrak has asked the Union Pacific for costs to reroute the CZ thru Wyoming west of Denver. This would eliminate the stunning crossing of the Colorado Rockies by day, which is the great draw of the route. Yet this reroute bypasses tracks that are legally PTC exempt, which means Amtrak is not prohibited from running there.
Apparently, like the Chief route, some portion of the existing Zephyr route is exempt from PTC - and it certainly sounds as if Amtrak doesn’t want to operate trains anywhere not having PTC.

I personally don't think it's "the end of the world". The Overland Route in its own way is an exciting ride.

Posts: 8790 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would hate to miss that ride up the front range. But, you’re right, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. It’s possible it might attract more passengers too as Amtrak would have a route up the front range - just a bit east of Boulder, Longmont, and Ft. Collins. It would be a fairly short car trip from Longmont and Ft. Collins to a stop at Greeley, a decent sized town itself. And of course Wyoming would gain passenger service to its largest city, Cheyenne, as well as the Capitol at Laramie. The sizeable city of Ogden would also gain a train. Of course the losers would be Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction.

According to my calculations, the mileage would increase by about 55 miles (assuming the train did the dogleg move to Salt Lake City from Ogden) but the transit time would be at least an hour faster. And for railfans, the double track mainline of the UP would be far more interesting. But I suspect the extra mileage would not make it a cheap detour and we all know Mr. Anderson doesn’t like added expenses.

This would actually be a good change, if Colorado would step up and sponsor a daily train from Denver to Glenwood Springs, if not Grand Junction, presumably on a schedule similar to the ski train. Shades of the Yampa Valley Mail. But that would require Anderson to sit down with the state and do some negotiation, which apparently is not his style.

Posts: 2260 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sojourner
Full Member
Member # 3134

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sojourner         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's the end of the world.
Posts: 2586 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sojourner
Full Member
Member # 3134

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sojourner         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IMPORTANT QUESTION: When are these trains supposed to stop their current traditional routes (both SW Chief and Zephyr) if they do?
Posts: 2586 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ms. Sojourner, no firm date has been set and 180 day Notice under ARAA97 must be given (unless they plan a tactic such as the case with Sunset East).

I'd like to think that Mr. Anderson's staff has ascertained that even without the Chief, the Zephyr reroute, and Fresh and Contemporary, that there will be Congressional approval to continue the record level of funding Amtrak presently enjoys.

Posts: 8790 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sojourner
Full Member
Member # 3134

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sojourner         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would 180 day notice rule apply to bustitution on the SW Chief or Wyoming reroute on the Zephyr? Seems to me not . . . the trains themselves are not being done away with.

Let us know if you hear of any dates for these things. What are people saying???? Think they will still be the old route this winter???

Posts: 2586 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yukon11
Full Member
Member # 2997

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for yukon11     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If the route goes through Wyoming, which cities or towns would it pass through? I assume Cheyenne, but how about further west, e.g. would it go to Laramie or even further west to Rawlins? Possibly it would rejoin the present CZ route after Cheyenne, but where?

Richard

Posts: 1595 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sojourner, I think you are correct. If these changes are made, it is being made, at least initially, for 'safety reasons' - no PTC. The deadline for that is 13/31/18. If there are any changes I think that's when we'll see them. Although there are reports of a diner downgrade on the SWC with the menu change in November.

Richard, Wyoming might well welcome this as they would be back on the national network with possible stops in their biggest cities (that's not saying a lot). Once you get to Cheyenne, the only option is to take the UP's main line - the Overland Route (comparable in traffic volume and speed to the BNSF Trasncon)- From Cheyenne, it climbs up the remarkably unscenic Sherman Hill (el. 8200') then stops in Laramie, Rawlins, Rock Springs, Green River, Evanston,to Ogden,UT then south to Salt Lake City before resuming the regular route.

Posts: 2260 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Would a rerouted Zephyr even serve Ogden? Roy Jct is East of the former OUR&D Union Station, so if there was to be a new station there, it would be away from the Downtown.

When at Hill AFB UT and I got "riffed" out of Service during January '69 instead of Sep, I really felt "robbed", as I already had trips planned.

Posts: 8790 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MargaretSPfan
Full Member
Member # 3632

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for MargaretSPfan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rerouting the CZ off its spectacular and traditional route through Utah and Colorado is a very, very bad idea. This seems to be yet another example of one more way Anderson's handlers on the Amtrak BoD are feeding him garbage, and seems to me to be just one more ploy to discourage people from riding Amtrak LD trains. And it will probably work, just as the similar tactics the SP used in the 1060s worked very well to discourage people from riding their trains, so the SP could go to the ICC and complain that few people were riding their trains. and because the ICC did NOT require the SP to explain WHY passenger counts were down.

And if there are to be train-offs, I am sure that this decision will be announced well AFTER the November elections -- so voters will ot be able to hold Congress accountable for that.

(Maybe the US should go to a parliamentary form of government? This would allow voters to kick out politicians who pull stunts like defunding or deleting important programs and services just after elections.)

But -- if Anderson and his handlers do eliminate all LD trains, where will they hide... err.... reallocate a lot of the NEC's capital expenses?

And some hage said elsewhere that Anderson & Co. intend to pull the diners off a number of LD trains -- but, of course, late this Novemner, AFTER the elections.

I, for one, and very, very tired of all the very bad news about what Congress and state houses have done in the past few years. We all need and deserve pretty much nothing but GOOD news from now one about lots of things that Congress and state houses have done.

Posts: 200 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Margaret, I'm not certain how your affinity to the SP (you/husband/kids worked for them?) arises, but towards the end, they DID live up to the bargain they struck with the Commission under ex parte 287.

In exchange for allowing the Sunset to operate Tri-weekly, SP agreed to restore Sleeping Car and full Diner service. This even included an NY-LA line. No corners cut on the Diner.

Know so first hand; rode NO-El Paso December 1970.

Posts: 8790 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GBN, you are probably right. I’m not familiar with Ogden trackage. If the train can’t make a direct move via Ogden station, you can be sure Amtrak won’t build an Amshack on the cut off route. Especially so since SLC is only 35/40 miles away.
Posts: 2260 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yukon11
Full Member
Member # 2997

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for yukon11     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I definitely don't like the idea of re-routing the Zephyr along the old overland route.
I would miss the Rockies west of Denver, Glenwood Springs, and Grand Junction.

I think the only thing which might be a plus would be Cheyenne (great old stn. if it could return to being a train stn.) and that it would afford a closer jumping off point for a Jackson Hole or Yellowstone road trip. The nearest town would be Rock Springs, which would mean a 3 hr. drive to Jackson or Yellowstone via a rental car.

I also wonder, with the new Wyoming route, if it would change arrival/departure times for Ogden and/or Salt Lake City. I was trying to look up the old timetable for the City of San Francisco, which did go through southern WY, to see the schedule for that route. However, I can't seem to find the website for old streamliner passenger train timetables. Is it still around?

Richard

Posts: 1595 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sojourner
Full Member
Member # 3134

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sojourner         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Palmland, thanks for the info--sounds likely. But you mean 12/31/18, right? That is the deadline?
Posts: 2586 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ocala Mike
Full Member
Member # 4657

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ocala Mike     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
yukon, in December of 1966 my wife and I traveled on the City from Omaha to the bay area on our way to Korea. We stopped in Ogden around late supper time for a one hour dinner stop.

--------------------
Ocala Mike

Posts: 1465 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
palmland
Full Member
Member # 4344

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for palmland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, Sojourner, it is December this year, although the 13th month might be more appropriate. While none of us would like a reroute, it is infinitely better than a bus bridge between Glenwood Springs or Grand Junction and SLC in the middle of the night.
Posts: 2260 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PullmanCo
Full Member
Member # 1138

Icon 1 posted      Profile for PullmanCo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A reroute which adds a state capital and a state's major university is not the worst thing which ever happened.
Posts: 1360 | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MargaretSPfan
Full Member
Member # 3632

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for MargaretSPfan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Appeasing anyone who is being completely unreasonable never works. Ever. Np one who really supports Amtrak should budge one inch in opposing all of Richard Anderson's ridiculous demandss.

Mr. Norman --
I am an "SP Fan" because it was the dominant railroad where I lived in the SF Bay Area when I became a railfan in the mid-1970s.

Posts: 200 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonNadeau
Full Member
Member # 61606

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for DonNadeau   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Union Pacific chose Wyoming because it provided the flattest crossing of the Rockies between the Midwest and Central California.

I've traveled that route via an Amtrak reroute and UP trains & I doubt that most passengers knew they were crossing the Rockies. Boring. Boring. Boring when compared to Colorado.

A Wyoming reroute would take away all my incentive to ride the CZ.

On the other hand, I realize that PTC routes give Amtrak some legal cover and hopefully provide a safer ride, as well as protecting it against utter PR debacles like the Cascade crash, where all blame piled on Amtrak.

--------------------
@DonNadeau

Posts: 358 | From: Iowa | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sojourner
Full Member
Member # 3134

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sojourner         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr Nadeau, I took the route too, one spring back when they were doing trackwork on the usual track west of Denver. I agree, boring boring boring. While I wouldn't mind it once in a while, since it goes to that nice station in Cheyenne, I think it would be dreadful as something permanent. The CZ is the most scenic of all Amtrak trains, the only real rival to the VIA Rail in Canada. I sure hope if Amtrak doesn't do it, someone else will. And not just as far as Glenwood Springs--isn't the Ruby Canyon west of Glenwood Springs? And what about the stop for going to Arches, isn't that there somewhere too? I'd been hoping to go there some time, figure out how to get a taxi from the train, a conductor from Utah told me it was possible . . . .
Posts: 2586 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In order to serve Cheyenne, there would need be a backup move for over two miles from Borie Jct. During the period A-Day to the 1983 reroute, there was a bus transfer Borie-Cheyenne.
Posts: 8790 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DonNadeau
Full Member
Member # 61606

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for DonNadeau   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, the CZ does travel via Ruby Canyon west of Glenwood Springs and Grand Junction.

The CZ comes closest to Arches and Moab at Green River UT (a tiny town), but Grand Junction CO probably offers far more transfer and rental car options. There may be bus service to Moab. Will let you research that. Moab does offer shuttle services.


I highly recommend stopping over in Glenwood Springs. Let me know if you ever plan to do so & will give tips.

--------------------
@DonNadeau

Posts: 358 | From: Iowa | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sojourner
Full Member
Member # 3134

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sojourner         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don, I did stop in Glenwood Springs once and loved it. I stayed right up top in Hotel Denver but breakfasted at finer Hotel Colorado, took the local bus around, saw Doc Holliday's grave, went to the hot springs, went to the little train shop/museum at the station, had good Mexican food . . . don't remember rest. Only thing I didn't do was take the public bus to Aspen, which I ought to have done, as I've never seen Aspen. Would love to go back!

Mr Norman, Are you saying that if the Zephyr went through Cheyenne (which I hope and pray it never does except on occasion) it would not stop at the fine old station downtown??? Whyever not? The freight trains go there.

Posts: 2586 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
George Harris
Full Member
Member # 2077

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for George Harris     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In the immediate early Amtrak days the Zephyr went on the SP Oakland to Ogden, then UP Ogden to Cheyenne, and then was pulled backwards from there to Denver. Did not go through Salt Lake City.

I rode this is late November 1971 on my return from Vietnam. Given the anti-war demonstrators at the time I did not wear my uniform even though it would have saved me money. Did not think about that 20 ish guy with tropical suntan and short hair might as well had a flashing neon sign saying returning GI on my head.

The UP across Wyoming at time was 90 mph for passenger trains, and the run was go 90 mph for about 60 miles stop at some small place and then do it again. Bleak, snow on the ground like dust blowing up in a cloud behind the train. If I remember right, 3 coaches and 3 sleepers Oakland to Denver, then train pretty well doubled in length from there to Chicago.

Posts: 2607 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member
Member # 1541

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gilbert B Norman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr. Harris, I guess my memory faileth; happens as one closes in on age 77.

Now I recall my Jan 1969 "farewell joyride"; riding in civvies, UP 104 "City of Everywhere" to Denver (#10 Chy-Den), overnight at The Brown Palace (military rate $12), then #17 Zephyr DEN-SLC. The cars to Kansas City were cut for #10 then handled backwards to Denver (there'd be a pickup at North Platte for the Denver cars).

Based upon Mr. Harris' immediate report, it evidently was later into the Amtrak era that the bus transfer to Borie was initiated.

Yes, I too, like Mr. Harris, have sordid scornful memories for stepping forward to serve my country. Most vivid as it was directed straight at me occurred aboard SP #11, Cascade. July '68, I had gotten off the MAC flight at Travis (KSUU) back from Tan Son Nhut (VVTS) and was cleared at about 630A. From a year old SP timetable, I saw that this was an "on day" for #11. A taxi driver was willing to take me for a ride by myself to the Fairfield station ("here's a card; call us if you need a ride back to Travis"). I was in Class A uniform, and boarded #11. The three-unit-Diner was in consist and I sat down for a great SP Breakfast; then sits this "fortysomething" gal, who proceeds to taunt me with "how many kids did you kill over there (indirectly many, I'd guess)". I'd bet that gal picked me out just so she could vent her venom.

Well, next leg was Oakland-Sacramento on the Zephyr - and in civvies in a Roomette. Next leg was Sac-Ogden on #102 for a peek at Hill before reporting next month. I was asleep before Norden and did not awake until over the Lake on the Cut-Off.

Posts: 8790 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ocala Mike
Full Member
Member # 4657

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ocala Mike     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
More thread creep. Returning from Korea in Sept., 1967 wearing my AF blues. Last leg of the trip was a flight on a United Air Lines DC-6, O'Hare to Cedar Rapids, IA to reunite with my wife who was living in Iowa City.

I remember a very pretty UAL stewardess chatting with this 1st Lt. as we circled the field 3 or 4 times trying to land in a heavy T-storm. Hardly any other passengers. Sometimes the uniform was a plus, at least in middle America.

Posts: 1465 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yukon11
Full Member
Member # 2997

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for yukon11     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Regardless of what one thought of the Nam war, I think it was a real tragedy and disgrace that Americans didn't honor its service men and women upon returning to the states.

If the CZ goes to Wyoming, I assume the stop will not be at the old UP station (now the Wyoming Transportation Museum) but at Borie, south of Cheyenne. When passsengers got off the old San Francisco Zephyr or Amtrak Pioneer, at Borie, they had to be bused to Cheyenne.

Too bad that the Cheyenne station couldn't be resurrected into an actual working train station.

https://is.gd/VBNwLO


Richard

Posts: 1595 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PullmanCo
Full Member
Member # 1138

Icon 1 posted      Profile for PullmanCo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dealing with Denver to Cheyenne is not difficult. Park one unit, maybe even an F40 bag, at each station. Run to the Borie cutoff backwards, turn the unit on the UP Steam turntable, it's ready to go south.
Posts: 1360 | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Home Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2




Copyright © 2007-2016 TrainWeb, Inc. Top of Page|TrainWeb|About Us|Advertise With Us|Contact Us