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I had forgotten about the upcoming nightmare and expenses when freon is illegal. Wonderful. Next is the ridiculous upcoming mandate to buy those silly fluorescent light bulbs. Don't dare drop one in your house! The instructions for cleaning up the broken glass and the HazMat inside those stupid things is insane. I could go off on a huge rant about this ridiculous light bulb thing, but I suppose I better not.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Mike, Not to get off topic here, but are you referring to the most common AC refrigerant systems? Those would be R12 (freon, complete with CFCs) and R134a (substitute) unless something has changed recently. The groundwork for outlawing R12 refrigerant was laid a long time before Prez Bill showed up. For instance, as part of a group trip in 1992 I noticed that there was a shortage of Sightseer Lounge cars with ex-Santa Fe hi-levels being used as substitutes. According to numerous crew members, this was because the Grove was behind schedule in converting their refrigeration systems away from R12. Prez Bill made quite a few campaign promises that he did not or could not keep. Now, depending on which state they're in, the new people are doing the same thing. I don't want cheezy promises to appeal to your party-registered membership, I WANT FACTS!!!
By the way, both of my cars and my house don't have AC. I sleep in the basement and drink lots of water when it's hot out here. It's a heck of a lot easier to work on my car (which is 85 pounds lighter now) with the air con gear ripped out of it.
I still like my signature idea for a candidate....
Posts: 391 | From: Schenectady | Registered: Jan 2002
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Amtrak207, BJ executed his executive order in April 1993. This took out R-22 and saddled us with R410a.
Google R-410a and see what it takes to put that system in place. It is a complete new install, no retrofitting allowed.
And being on topic, this is a wonderful example of just how much power a President has, and how he can keep screwing us, long after he is gone. I'm nervous that an executive order can take Amtrak out!
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Amtrak207: By the way, both of my cars and my house don't have AC. I sleep in the basement and drink lots of water when it's hot out here. It's a heck of a lot easier to work on my car (which is 85 pounds lighter now) with the air con gear ripped out of it.
How reasonable this is depends a lot on where you live. Works nicely in San Francisco where, so far as I am concerned, you have a 12 months a year heating season. Would not want to be that way in the Deep South and Gulf Coast which is my preferred geographical reference - where we don't even have basements. Yes, I grew up with no AC, but then my parents spent their early years without electricity at all. Don't wnat to go back to that aspect of the "good ole days."
Posts: 2975 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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The DC area is high humiity and oppressively hot during the summer. After all the city was built on a drained swamp. Often the city opens cooling shelters for the less fortunate among us because of the dangers of the situation. The gov't would shut down when the temp got to a certain place and I can remember teaching or trying to in Oct.It was so hot that the kids arms and papers were sticking to the desks. I would finally take the bunch out under the trees where we could get some minor relief. So it definiely depends on where you live.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Another thing that makes a difference in keeping buildings cool is shade. Trees shading houses from the sunlight keep them cooler. Also, houses that used to be made of brick or stone would stay a lot cooler than wood frame houses. More of the heat would be absorbed by the walls and transferred into the ground. These types of buildings would stay cool inside without air conditioning, even in very hot and humid climates.
As for compact fluorescent bulbs, Smitty has a point. I mostly use incandescent, and have a stockpile in case availability becomes a problem. If you want to rant about this or any of the numerous other aspects of poor lighting (not to say CFs are always a bad choice), go ahead. I will be supportive.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2005
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How the heck did we get so off topic? WHile we are off topic though...there appears to be an overwhelming proportion of conservatives in here over liberals.....ehhh...nevermind.....LOL
Obama has been the only one that's made any mention of Amtrak, we know how McCain feels about it, and God knows what Billary thinks.
Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well, since the tangents have been established, I'm going on record as being a happy compact fluorescent user. We've had 'em in our house for fifteen years and they're perfectly fine once you get used to them. The only places we don't use them is in lamps that are on dimmers or that we rarely use. We have one in our living room that is still burning bright after more than nine years!
I think the mercury concerns are overblown. The amount is tiny. A lot of people have full size flourescents in their kitchens, and they have more mercury than the little ones. I've broken flourescent tubes a few times in my life and never got poisoned. The compact fluorescents are durable enough that they probably won't break if they fall on carpet, and on a hard floor they're easy to sweep up safely. There's nothing to be afraid of, except fear itself.
But saving energy is a good thing. I remember all too well the energy shortages of the '70s. I'm surprised so many conservatives have a problem with conserving.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. Here is what was in the Boston Globe last Tuesday (regarding the cleanup procedure if you drop and break a CFL bulb):
-Keep people and pets away. Open windows, and leave the area for 15 minutes before beginning the cleanup. -Do not use a vacuum cleaner, even on a carpet. This will spread the mercury vapor and dust and potentially contaminate the vacuum. -Wear rubber gloves. -Carefully remove the larger pieces and place them in a secure closed container, preferably a glass jar with a metal screw top lid and seal like a canning jar. -Next, scoop up the smaller pieces and dust using two stiff pieces of paper such as index cards or playing cards. -Pick up fine particles with duct tape, packing tape, or masking tape, and then use a wet wipe or damp paper towel. -Put all waste into the glass container, including all material used in the cleanup. Remove the container from your home and call your local solid waste district or municipality for disposal instructions. -Continue ventilating the room for several hours. -Wash your hands and face. -As a precaution, consider discarding throw rugs or the area of carpet where the breakage occurred, particularly if the rug is in an area frequented by infants, small children or pregnant women. Otherwise, open windows during the next several times you vacuum the carpet to provide good ventilation.
The Globe's source was the Maine Bureau of Remediation and Waste Management/Mercury Policy Project
I'm all for saving energy (like taking the train!), but we are allowing ourselves to get so carried away with this silliness that it just boggles my mind.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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A mercury thermometer contains 100 times as much mercury as a CFL. If you're afraid of CFLs you should find thermometers downright horrifying. On the other hand, if you're not afraid of a thermometer, there's no need to fear a CFL.
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Mr Toy has nailed it! Fluorescents save money; lots of money! They cost you 1/4 as much as an incandescent bulb. I started using them for my house's exterior lighting back in 1986.
Everyone must remember, journalism has devolved into the dumbest profession on this planet. If there is no emotional impact, the story will not be aired. When they whine about the mercury in the bulb, they are doing everything they can to feed the emotional impact of the story.
If you are worried about the minuscule amount of mercury in these bulbs, then you should be horrified about concrete and silicosis.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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The search for the risk-free existance is doomed to failure because it is impossible.
You can also save a lot of money just by turning off lights and other things that use electricity when you don't need them. This works better for incandescents becasue there is no start-up process.
Talking of waste: I am amazed at the number of people that leave the water running while they brush their teeth or shave. After you wet the tootbrush or razor, turn it off until you need it again. It doesn't take that much extra effort.
Posts: 2975 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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We put the Odyssey minivan (12 mpg in town) into the garage for use only when we need it and are sharing the Civic for routine around-town driving (24-25 mpg).
We have replaced most of our incandescent bulbs with the newfangled ones.
And we are imbibing Two-Buck Chuck merlot (actually Charles Shaw, $2.26 a bottle at Trader Joe's) for our everyday plonk. It's surprisingly drinkable.
We won't, however, ride coach on our Amtrak long-distance trips. Too old.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: My wife and I are cutting back, too:
We put the Odyssey minivan (12 mpg in town) into the garage for use only when we need it and are sharing the Civic for routine around-town driving (24-25 mpg).
We have replaced most of our incandescent bulbs with the newfangled ones.
And we are imbibing Two-Buck Chuck merlot (actually Charles Shaw, $2.26 a bottle at Trader Joe's) for our everyday plonk. It's surprisingly drinkable.
We won't, however, ride coach on our Amtrak long-distance trips. Too old.
Try Corbett Canyon Merlot in a box. It is pretty good! {3 liters, roughly 4 bottles, for $9.35}
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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1)The environmental impact of household light bulbs is grossly exaggerated. Indoor light bulbs don't cost that much to operate, whichever variety they are. When fluorescent lights became standard people started leaving them on more of the time because they were cheaper to operate. How much energy can be saved simply by turning lights off when they're not in use? I suspect it is more than 75%. I see people leave building lights on all the time when they only use them for a few minutes a day. One might spend $50 on lighting during a year, but how much would they spend on heating and air conditioning? How many poorly designed homes are there wasting energy? How much does the average household spend on gas for commuting to work that could be done by train, bus, carpool, bicycle, for a fraction of the cost and (in the case of trains) in greater safety? It makes light bulbs look pathetic.
2)Many people consider the quality of light from CF bulbs to be poor, and they should have the liberty to make those decisions for themselves. At best the light from CF bulbs can look similar to incandescents, but it's still not the same . They flicker with the power cycle, even the new ones, and the effects range from memory and concentration to provoking seizures in sensitive people. http://www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/2119-bright-lights-bad-headache
I don't want to say that the fluorescent campaign is a deliberate diversion, because that would be oversimplifying things -- but people should probably be paying attention to other matters. I try to conserve energy, but that should not mean accepting an inferior product. I don't blame anyone for choosing to use incandescents. They don't harm the environment to any significant degree, and the quality of light they produce is worth the extra penny.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2005
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WHOAAAAAAA! Talk about getting off topic!!! While I find your discourses on fluorecscent bulbs fascinating, let's try and get back on track (hah! pun intended!)-- hmmmmmmmm-- how do you think Mr. Obama will get the vote from our bagpipers and ponies? (Hah!!)
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Well, Mr. Maniac, now that it appears the Democrats have taken a step back and resalized that they were on the verge of nominating an exciting young politician, a great public speaker, but at this time little else (2012 or '16 it could be a different story), all these concerns about flourescent bulbe (the only place they are in my house is where the bulb is difficult to get to for replacement), bagpipes, ponies, and whatever, are out the window as each party appears they want 'experience" in the Oval Office.
May the best candidate win!!!
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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OK, I have to jump in and make my obligatory comment about CF bulbs. We've been using them long before it became "the thing to do".
Cost savings: When I replaced the ones that get the most use, I monitored and saw a reduced electric bill, about $10 a month after replacing 6 bulbs in the house. Most recently I replaced the incandescents in our outdoor, motion sensor "coach lights". My electric bill dropped by $10 a month on those alone. That paid for the bulbs in the first month. So no once can tell me that there isn't a savings.
Light quality: Unless you require special lighting for health or eyesight reasons, good qaulity CFs throw off very similar light to incandescents. The key is NOT to by the cheap bulbs from the end of the aisle at the grocery store. We really can't tell the difference between the ones we use in our living room and the old incandescents we had. I realize this is largely personal preference. But no one has ever walked into our house and commented that there was something odd about our lighting.
Instant on: Has never been an issue for us. I can deal with a short delay for the money we're saving.
Flicker effect: I get headaches at work from the overhead flourescents. At home I can't even tell. On rare occasion I can detect a flicker. But not enough to cause me problems. Again, this has a lot to do with the quality of the bulb. Thats not to say some people are exagerting the flicker issue. Some people are VERY sensitive to this. For those folks, all I can suggest is to wait a few more years, LED light bulbs will be replacing CFs.
Mercury: I agree, this is over blown. How many light bulbs do you break a year? 1 in ten years, maybe? Take burned out bulbs to the local recycler. Most municipal dumps will handle them. So if mecury is such a big deal with these, how come no one is screaming about the millions of full size flourescents being thrown in the trash each year? Treat CFs like any other household chemical. We all have a lot of poisonous stuff in our homes. I'm sure most people are not avoiding them because of thier dangers.
-------------------- Chuck
“Adventure is just bad planning.” - Roald Amundsen Posts: 80 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2007
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I prefer the D65 (daylight) fluorescents, myself. It mutes the reds that would be exaggerated by incandescent bulbs, and brings up the green wavelengths.
Posts: 889 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Off topic or not. This AC discussion may be important. If AC will hit a wall in 2010. What about Amtrak and AC? Is the current lack of rebuild money/new funds available for rolling stock purchases at Amtrak really a bright management move to be able to retrofit older coaches/sleepers/etc. to post 2010 AC standards, and then find new funds for new car purchases?
Posts: 39 | From: Detroit, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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The R-410a refrigerant fiasco probably will not affect Amtrak for a decade or more.
If Superliners use R-22 freon {I don't know what they use}, they will have to phase that out between now and 2020. 2020 is not a hard date because there will still be recoverable R-22 available {at a tremendous cost}, it just will not be manufactured anymore.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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"Good Grief!!!" is not a reasoned and thoughtful response to those who may disagree with your politics.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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No: good grief that we have veered so ridiculously off topic. We have gone from Obama and Amtrak to lightbulbs! Don't ruin it for others by taking the subject so far off topic. If you want to talk about lightbulbs and politics start a different thread. Better yet, try a different forum. This is a TRAINS forum.
Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Thank you. "Good grief that we have veered so ridiculously off topic." Now we know what you are talking about. We are dense, you see; we move our lips when we read, and we need signposts to what's in front of us. Meaningless interjections do not help.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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This laughs on me...the next one, I'll have to charge yall for it. LOL. Just Kidding. I think this thread has maybe run its course. Does anyone else have anything else to say about OBAMA AND AMTRAK?????
Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I wonder what Obama Girl's position on any issue of any substance.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The last I looked, Obama Girl's position was, well, not quite within the bounds of good taste, but I don't think I would move to the next car if I encountered her on an Amtrak train.
(Trying to keep this thread relevant . . .)
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Mr. Kisor, let the record show that I edited that posting "once or twice" in order to ensure best possible taste.
Of interest, somewhere I learned that there is a possibility "Obama Girl" is the first Republican "Swift Boat" of this campaign.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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"Obama Girl" is a Milli Vanilli-like artifice. One woman sings, and a model lip-synchs.
In spite of some of the media rumblings to the contrary, something tells me that Pastor Jeremiah Wright of the TUCC is a greater campaign liability.
Posts: 889 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Getting back to the light bulb topic, anyone interested in energy conservation should know that people are encouraged to turn off their lights for one hour from 8:00PM to 9:00PM local time tonight. This is to heighten awareness that energy can be saved by turning off lights when they are not needed.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Well, since I'm out of the house taking son to a live theatre performance, that's a "too easy to do" kind of thing.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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lights are nothing in the energy world, considering 1 standard incandescent bulb is usually 60-90 watts, a fluorescent bulb is around 10 watts, and the new LED bulbs get an amazing 1 watt. A vacuum, microwave, or heater uses 500-1000 watts, and it goes up from there with other standard household appliances.
Now if you told everyone in Phoenix to turn off their AC for an hour, now were talking energy saving.
Posts: 13 | From: Glenwood Springs, CO | Registered: Mar 2008
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I'm wondering how much energy could be saved by businesses being required to decrease there operating hours by 30 minutes per day...just a thought. Would it hurt businesses like 7-11 to be open 23 hours per day rather than 24? What if businesses would open at 9am rather than 8am? How much energy could be saved?
-------------------- Patrick Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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