posted
Reading through some of the most recent threads, with regard to the Empire Builder schedule, I think many would agree that it would be good to be able to travel through Glacier Park during daylight. Eastbound, out of Seattle, is ok as the EB arrives in West Glacier around 8am..however, the stretch from Spokane to W. Glacier is also very scenic..too bad it is overnight.
Westbound, during the late fall, winter, and early spring the train arrives in East Glacer around 6:30 PM. By then, the sun will have gone down or else be not far from going down..and you miss Glacier Park and further west due to darkness. In summer, it is ok as you get very late sunsets and the Park and further west would still be visible.
What about the following:
For Eastbound, out of Seattle, start the EB about 5 hrs later than the present schedule.
Leave: Seattle 10 PM Arrive: Spokane 5:30 AM " W. Glacier 1 PM " Fargo 7 AM " Minneaspolis/St. Paul 1PM " Chicago 10 PM
For Westbound, out of Chicago, start the EB 4 hrs ealier than the present schedule.
Leave: Chicago 10 AM Arrive: Minneapolis/St. Paul 6 PM " Fargo 11:30 PM " E. Glacer 2PM to 2:30 PM " Spokane 9:30 PM " Seattle 6:00 - 6:30 AM
The departing and arrival times, in Chicago, might not allow for connections with some other Amtrak trains, but my thinking is that many start or end their trip in Chicago..and people making connections from other trains might prefer to stay overnight, in Chicago, anyway.
The westbound train would get into Seattle quite early, but it should allow better chances of connecting with the Coast Starlight, which leaves Seattle at 9:45 AM.
It would make the arrival times, for Spokane, better in each direction, at least it seems to me.
It would allow the journey through Glacier Park at daylight hours.
Your comments.....
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I suspect the Amtrak schedulers would tell you that they MUST make those same-day connections at Chicago, and that is what most through passengers desire.
Many EB passengers are ticketed eastward on the LSL, CL and Cardinal. They likely wouldn't appreciate having to spend the dough to overnight in Chicago. Likewise the westbound passengers -- a 10 a.m. departure on the EB would be cutting it awfully close for LSL, CL and Cardinal arrivals.
There may also be operational problems at Chicago Union Station with westbound LD trains departing that early in the morning -- I don't know. Maybe some more knowledgeable heads can jump in here.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Changing the Empire Builder to a schedule substantially different from its current one would be tantamount to Amtrak management saying, "We aren't primarily running a transportation service here, we're primarily running a joyride for scenery buffs and rail buffs". To convey a message like that to government entities, journalists, and the non-rail-committed public would be disastrous.
If I lived in a part of the Northeast that required me to overnight in Chicago before proceeding to Minnesota, North Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Washington, or Oregon, or vice versa, I would feel like a fool if any of my relatives or non-NARP friends knew about it. In fact, I'd feel like somewhat of a fool in my own eyes.
Let's not forget that the Empire Builder in its current form does not have a popularity problem. I took a trip from Washington, D.C. to Portland, Oregon and back in October 2008, and the Empire Builder's sleepers were sold out the whole way in both directions, and the coaches nearly so. It's my understanding that that's a typical situation throughout the year, even in the slack travel periods. Why tamper with a schedule that appears to be a success? The one big improvement the train needs is more coaches and sleepers, which hopefully will be forthcoming as a result of Amtrak's increased subsidy over the next few years.
The kind of schedule suggested by yukon11 might be good for a second daily frequency over the route, although it could be argued that the best additional frequencies would be ones as far removed as practical from the current one: say, a departure from Chicago at 7 a.m. or 11 p.m., and a departure from Seattle at 7 a.m. or 11 p.m. Note, by the way, that if there were a second and a third daily frequency on the route, with 7 a.m. and 11 p.m. departures from both Chicago and Seattle, it would have the effect of turning Chicago to Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minneapolis/St. Paul to Chicago, Seattle to Spokane, and Spokane to Seattle into perfect overnight trips.
Regarding connections between the Empire Builder and the Coast Starlight, note that the preferred connection point between those trains is not Seattle anyway, but Portland. (Empire Builder passengers going to or from points between Seattle and Portland can use Cascades trains to access those points.)
Posts: 86 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Whitefish-Spokane may be scenic, but in comparison to the Columbia River Gorge some might find it not to be an improvement. Though I won't go as far as Mr. Norman's "if you see one pine tree you've seen them all", I would personally prefer the variety, waterfalls, and majestic peaks of the gorge to be by daylight. Sunrise and sunset also add to the beauty of the Columbia valley.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Mr. Kisor, Mr. Shore, and Mr. TwinStarRocket... I think your arguments are sound and well-taken.
I also would really like a 2nd Empire Builder run..so 2 trains in each direction...but it don't think that is going to happen.
With regard to Amtrak running, primarily, a transportation service, I probably have a different view than most board members based on some earlier posts. I have always felt that Amtrak offers both a transportation and train excursion function. There may be people taking the train because they don't like to fly, or possibly because they live in a remote area along one of the Amtrak routes. Possibly they live along the Acela or Capital trains corridor and they use it to commute.
I have always maintained that many people ride the train for the joy and pleasure of it. A great way to get from "A to B" which is relaxing and fun. Take, for example, the old SP "Daylight" train from Los Angels to San Francisco. Back then, trains were still an essential means of travel. However, over 50% of passengers on the old "Daylight" were said to have taken the train for sure pleasurable purposes.
I used to live east of Glacier Park along Highway 2. The Empire Builder follows highway 2 all across Montana, through Northern Idaho, and over to Seattle. Having driven along Highway 2 from Montana to Seattle, I was always very impressed by the scenery from West Glacier Park to Spokane, WA. As of now, with the EB run, it is pretty much overnight from Spokane to Glacier, in each direction.
I feel it is really too bad people don't get to view that scenic country, from Glacier Park to Spokane, which I saw while driving along Highway 2.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
This is an interesting, thought provoking thread. I agree with the notion that same day connections are essential in Chicago as few people are going to want to spend a pricy night in the Windy City and indeed there are lots of connecting passengers at Chicago. I've made the westbound Builder trip twice and, due to the long summer days, have easily seen the Glacier Park scenery. My notes show my last trip left East Glacier at 6:55pm and it was bright light outside, admittedly in June. A second frequency on most routes is my dream but, in this case, I'd rather see asecond frequency run via the ex-Northern Pacific closer to Yellowstone. One question for Yukon11: Doesn't the Builder route cross the lake near Sandpoint, ID on a long trestle? We'll be on the westbound this June and I'd like to try to wake up for it if the EB does cross the trestle I've seen in magazine photos of freight trains.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Interesting! The 1975 schedule (Amtrak North Coast Hiawatha I assume) is not bad. Leaving Seattle at 6PM would be ok as it would allow the Spokane to Glacier Park run during daylight. The only problem is that it arrives in Spokane at 3:00 AM. Was this only in one direction..only an eastbound train out of Seattle (3x per week if I recall)? If not, I wonder about the westbound schedule.
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by SilverStar092: This is an interesting, thought provoking thread. I agree with the notion that same day connections are essential in Chicago as few people are going to want to spend a pricy night in the Windy City and indeed there are lots of connecting passengers at Chicago. I've made the westbound Builder trip twice and, due to the long summer days, have easily seen the Glacier Park scenery. My notes show my last trip left East Glacier at 6:55pm and it was bright light outside, admittedly in June. A second frequency on most routes is my dream but, in this case, I'd rather see asecond frequency run via the ex-Northern Pacific closer to Yellowstone. One question for Yukon11: Doesn't the Builder route cross the lake near Sandpoint, ID on a long trestle? We'll be on the westbound this June and I'd like to try to wake up for it if the EB does cross the trestle I've seen in magazine photos of freight trains.
*************************************** Mr. SilverStar: I don't know the answer to your question about the long trestle on the lake near Sandpoint. I haven't lived in Northern Montana since the early 1970's, and I have forgotten. Maybe others can help out with this question.
Yes, it is nice for the westbound passsengers, on the EB, during the summer as you really get a late sundown. I once noted, when I lived in Montana, that the sun did not go down until later than 11PM. I wish, however, that westbound passengers would be able to go through the park, and beyond, during daylight at all times of the year.
It would be fantastic to have Amtrak bring back the North Coast Hiwatha, or whatever amalgam they would want to call it. It would, however, not really go through Glacer Park along the Empire Builder route. But, I would go for a new train along the NP line with a contrasting schedule to that of the Empire Builder.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Lest we note that the selling point for riding the Western Star, Great Northern's secondary train, was that it served Glacier Park during "people hours".
Considering that Western Star was the secondary train, it was actually quite well equipped. While it did not have Domes, it did offer a full dining service as well as an "econodine" Cafe Lounge.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Lest we note that the selling point for riding the Western Star, Great Northern's secondary train, was that it served Glacier Park during "people hours".
Considering that Western Star was the secondary train, it was actually quite well equipped. While it did not have Domes, it did offer a full dining service as well as an "econodine" Cafe Lounge.
************************ From a map of the old Great Northern route, I see lines from Havre down to Great Falls, Helena, & Butte. Also a link from Great Falls down to Billings. Were all of these routes considered Great Northern, or were some Western Star, exclusively?
posted
The Western Star did serve Great Falls using the line from Havre. Helena was served by the Northern Pacific's secondary train The Mainstreeter.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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