For more than a year, Talgo CEO Antonio Perez has held his tongue as detractors dumped on his company and its trains, until finally he could take no more. Perez cannot believe the State of Wisconsin has chosen to terminate two contracts it signed with Talgo nearly three years ago. His company has put almost three years of work into a project to build and maintain trains in a warehouse in Milwaukee’s 30th Street Corridor, the long-dormant industrial area Gov. Scott Walker has pledged to help revive with a new, $100 million dollar plan. Yet his administration will kill the only viable company now operating there, Talgo.
“What message does this send to other businesses?” Perez asks. “They should be careful of doing business here because Gov Walker does not keep his word. It’s like we’re talking about a Third World country, where people don’t have respect for their contracts.”
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I wonder if the Talgo saga has, in fact, dissuaded other business ventures from considering locating in Milwaukee..... or elsewhere in Wisconsin?
I wonder also whether there is any way of gauging this minus political spin?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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It would be interesting to hear what Tommy Thompson has to say about this, since he is currently running for the US Senate.
If you look at the photos in the link, the Talgo engines don't look quite as ugly after they are painted.
Posts: 1577 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The paint helps........ sort of like lipstick on a goose.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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“What message does this send to other businesses?” Perez asks. “They should be careful of doing business here because Gov Walker does not keep his word. It’s like we’re talking about a Third World country, where people don’t have respect for their contracts.”
Given the normal nature adn enforcability of contracts in this country, I would regard statements as the above as being insulting. It makes me suspect that he did not have a contract that was on the up and up in the first place.
If making public blusters is the way Mr. Perez feels about it and all he can expect to be able to do about it, all I can say is, Don't let the door bang your butt on your way out.
Posts: 2975 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I would think Talgo's best interests would be served if they simply bought those sets from Wisconsin, as there does not appear to be a North American buyer at hand.
If those trains remain in the hands of Wisconsin, they will simply be trotted pout for a "show trial" as "monuments to waste".. Talgo will in the process become guilty by association, and could forget about any future business in North America.
If there are photo ops of the equipment being loaded aboard a vessel as deck cargo at Milwaukee (give the local longshoremen the work), at least Talgo would be making the best of a bad situation. This is not to say it is a case of faulty designed equipment (read like the Amtrak SDP-40F and E-60 locomotives of thirty years ago), but rather equipment ordered not suited for the intended route and changing political breezes.
As for them seeing revenue service in Spain; well the government is broke and by adjunct, so is RENFE.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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According to Citizen Dave, if everything had gone according to plan, the HSR line between Madison WI and Chicago would be open and running now.
quote:Had Tom Barrett won the election for governor in 2010, right now, June 2013, would have seen the opening of Madison's high-speed rail station, connecting us to Milwaukee and Chicago immediately and the Twin Cities eventually.
Citizen Dave is actually Dave Cieslewicz, former mayor of Madison WI and, I presume, a Democrat. The article is clearly a partisan hit-piece and there are some obvious inaccuracies or exaggerations in the article:
quote: They (the Talgo trains) are the most sophisticated in the world.
Has it really been 4 years since this story broke?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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The latest news in the Talgo vs. Scott Walker fiasco has broken. Yes, the Wisconsin Talgos will be moving soon to Beech Grove. It's costing $29,000 a month to store the trains in Milwaukee so, according to the spokesperson for Talgo:
quote:"The reason for the move is to mitigate Talgo's damages in light of the State of Wisconsin's breach of the purchase contract for the trains,"
Also, another interesting quote from the article:
quote:The company also said it expects its $65.9 million claim against the State of Wisconsin, which included costs of unanticipated long-term storage, to fall flat. This would allow Talgo to pursue the damages in court,
The end is nowhere in sight.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Scott Walker brought that state back from the brink. He endured multiple death threats, and literally had thousands upon thousands of paid union thugs bused in to protest inside the state capital. He did exactly what he said he would do if elected. No surprises----he told everyone in advance, and he stuck to his guns under enormous pressure. The result is that Wisconsin is looking VERY good right now. I'm sorry they didn't get their choo-choo, but other priorities took its place.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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A review of the Reader Comments to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article linked by Mr. Vincent May 14, proved to be insightful and mature. This is especially the case with those made by reader JRWOakCreek (anyone wanna bet that's James Wrinn Editor TRAINS?).
However, those comments to the May 19 article also linked by Mr. Vincent are nothing more than the 'Scottylovers' and 'Scottyhaters' teeing off against one another.
Oh and finally, thanks to an intrepid railfan willing to stay awake all hours, here are the Talgo 'inmates' being transported from one 'facility' to another:
posted
There is a report appearing in the Detroit News that a possible deal between MIDOT and Talgo has been challenged by an Illinois concern, Corridor Capital LLC, that believes the proposal was written in a manner so that there could only be one bidder - namely Talgo:
Lansing — State lawmakers are looking into claims that the Department of Transportation is mistakenly buying passenger rail cars that Wisconsin rejected as the result of a faulty bidding process.
The criticism, aired at a recent Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, came from former U.S. Rep. Joe Schwarz of Battle Creek and a competing firm that argues the state’s bid specifications were so narrow only one company could meet them.
At issue is a pending $58 million Michigan Department of Transportation deal to buy two sets of passenger cars built in Milwaukee by the Spanish firm Talgo and once headed for a now-defunct high-speed rail project in Wisconsin. The cars sit idle because Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker called off his predecessor’s railroad plan.
I would guess this Corridor Capital concern has in mind an opportunity to unload their fleet of ex-ATSF High Level cars.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Has this Corridor Capital group tried to sell their ex-ATSF cars back to Amtrak to augment the long distance fleet?
Posts: 37 | From: LAKEWOOD, OHIO | Registered: Jan 2006
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As illustrated by this editorial, and the comments at the page, the rejection of funding in Wisconsin still resonates: Walker's train gaffe continues to resonate
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr. CG, allow me an off topic comment yet quite relevant to your Mark Twain signature quotation and for that matter your neck of the woods.
Last month, I had occasion to travel to Madison for a business dinner, but before that, I visited with the 20 year old daughter of neighbors. I figured, 'oh well, I'll break the law with her; surely she knows somewhere they don't look too closely at ID's'.
However on meeting up, she shared with me that so long as a college age person regardless of the 'magic number' is with someone who could pass for a parent, they could lawfully have a drink.
When we were sitting at an outdoor bar facing the Capitol and at which she was served without comment, some kid she knew stopped to say Hi; I simply said 'I'm Molly's grandfather' (I'm almost as old as her real maternal).
Point to this anecdote is simply that had I not has reason to be 'on the ground' in Madison with a college student, I would have never known of this local law, which I personally think is quite reasonable and appropriate.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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While nothing to do with the Talgos, 'Scottylovers' such as Mr. CG and Ms. McFarland will certainly enjoy (and just as much as the Scottylovers of the other stripe such as the 'Smith Brothers' will not) this front page piece in The Times that was reported by their Chicago Bureau chief - hardly some 'rip n' read' from a wire service:
CHICAGO — Prosecutors in Wisconsin assert that Gov. Scott Walker was part of an elaborate effort to illegally coordinate fund-raising and spending between his campaign and conservative groups during efforts to recall him and several state senators two years ago, according to court filings unsealed Thursday.
The allegations by five county district attorneys, released as part of a federal lawsuit over the investigation into Mr. Walker, suggest that some of the governor’s top campaign aides directed the political spending of the outside groups, most of them nonprofits, and in effect controlled some of them.
The documents made public on Thursday threatened to cloud the political prospects of Mr. Walker, who is seeking election to a second term this fall and is mentioned as a possible Republican presidential candidate in 2016. They provided a rare view of the inner workings of a far-flung network of conservative nonprofit groups that have come to play a decisive role in national and state elections, secretly moving hundreds of millions of dollars into campaigns by avoiding traditional political action committees, which typically face tougher disclosure requirements
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mike beat me to the punch. While I do not read the NY Times (because I feel they are an extremely biased, left-wing arm of the DNC and White House), I was going to point out that one of the comments I heard on the radio about this NY Times article yesterday is that I think it's not until the 13th paragraph (I could be wrong on the paragraph number---I'm winging it from memory) that the NY Times even bothers to mention that everything they are reporting is several months old and was already tossed out of court by two different judges. Two judges who pretty much said, "There is no case here, there is no crime, there is no evidence, there is no probable cause". Instead, we have activist prosecutors (which is a very, very dangerous thing to have) who will literally do anything to take down someone who did what was said couldn't be done. He took a solid blue state, and made it not so blue any more. Walker received numerous death threats to himself and his family, suspicious packages were sent to his house almost daily, his kids were harassed at school, his wife was followed---many things happened, and it was all done by (presumably) union goons. At the beginning of his tenure as Governor, the union bused in thousands upon thousands of paid, professional protestors. But he did not allow them to distract him from the work that he promised to do if elected. He took a state that was in very sorry conditions and turned it around so that they now have a surplus, and state taxes were lowered dramatically for everyone. What Walker did with Wisconsin is a model for what the GOP can do with the USA to fix our economy and get things rolling again. Walker proved that it CAN be done.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Not surprisingly, the Smith Bros. are going "all in" with Gov. Walker. We had a guy I worked with at the race track back in the 70's named Joe Stein who used to come in every day and tell everyone how he believed what was then a "two-bit burglary" would blow up in Nixon's face. Got so predictable, that we all gave him a nickname.
Haven't run into him in quite some time, but if I ever do, I will probably slip and call him by his nickname, "Joe Watergate."
This does not mean, however, that I want to be known in the future as "Wisconsin Mike!"
Posts: 1610 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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I'm trying to make the connection to understand what you're saying. I might be wrong, but I THINK what you're saying is that even thought you don't want to be called "Wisconsin Mike" in the future, the premise behind it is that you believe that Walker will be impeached, or arrested, or legally punished in some way. Do I understand this correctly, or are you saying something else?
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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No Ocala, we are just trying to educate you by giving you news stories that refute the typical media bias.
Would you like more proof? I can furnish you with at least 5 more news stories about the fallacy of the media's attacks on Governor Walker.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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If the rules against coordination are lifted, wealthy donors will achieve their dream of donating unlimited millions directly to candidates. The Walker case shows how important it is for government at all levels — Congress, federal agencies and state officials — to put severe curbs on the ability of outside groups to meddle in politics with unlimited dollars
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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What was reported in the two links I gave you were facts. Walker did nothing wrong. How many more links do you need? Here are three. I can post more...
posted
How about from a RECOGNIZED newssource, Mr. Smith
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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GBN: I think your definition of a recognized news source disappeared long ago. In the new media age, there are lots and lots of recognized news sources (and lots and lots of unrecognized as well). It takes internet experience, and it also helps if you are a news junkie as I am, to learn which is which. Just because it's not the New York Times, The Chicago Tribune, or the San Francisco Chronicle---that does not mean everything else is unrecognized. The old media giants of yesteryear are dying and/or are dead. Wasn't it Newsweek that sold for a dollar? And Time Magazine---are they even published any more, except online? "The People" have become fed up with the news sources of yesteryear, and their ad revenue and subscriber numbers reflect that. If it weren't for some fantastic internet news sources that we have today, we would never have known about the daily lies of the New York Times and others. And they DO lie---on a regular basis. This latest hit piece on Walker is nothing more than that---a hit piece. It is their attempt at cutting him off at the knees before he can gain any traction. The story about his alleged "crimes" were already rejected by at least two different judges who threw the cases out of court. Do you not believe this? It even says so in the NYT, but they waited until deep, deep into the article to mention that, oh by the way, this thing is several months old AND it was rejected from court. But besides that, we (the NYT) are indicting him anyway. That is why people don't trust or read those old rags any more. It's because they have an agenda, and journalism is dead in America as we once knew it.
How about this from a "recognized" news source (CNN):
Whoopsie. The CNN anchor let it slip that they are "doing everything" they can to advance Hillary's run for presidency. That's not journalism---not even close. You should start reading the alternate media in order to learn how dishonest and disrespectful the NYT is being to you. They are lying to your face on a daily basis, AND they're making you pay to receive those lies. That's why journalism is dead in the mainstream media. All it is any more is an arm of the DNC and White House. Investigative journalism is something that these people haven't practiced in years. However, on the internet, there are recognized sources for NEWS every day.
There are too many to list, but if you want a great daily summary, just glance at the Drudge Report once a day and look at the headlines. Then click on those headlines to read the stories. You'll get more for free there then you'll ever get in the NYT in its current, pathetic condition. They're just a bunch of biased liars these days---not many left who trust them.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Here is some more journalist malpractice regarding this Scott Walker "news". The quotes below are all from "recognized" news sources (ABC News, CNN, CNN, PBS, C-SPAN, CBS---all in this order, below). These are quotes from them from Thursday and Friday:
DWYER: A potential Republican presidential candidate is accused of taking part in an illegal fund-raising scheme!
BOLDUAN: (b-roll noise) Prosecutors in Wisconsin say Governor Scott Walker took part in a criminal scheme!
KING: ...directly accusing Governor Scott Walker of being part of a criminal scheme!
IFILL: Prosecutors have accused Republican Governor Scott Walker of illegal fund-raising.
SLEN: Prosecutors have alleged that Governor Scott Walker was part of a wide ranging "criminal scheme."
ROSE: Prosecutors accuse him of playing a central role in illegal fundraising.
Every single one of them is LYING. He WAS accused of these things, but the case is so incredibly ridiculous and made up that the case was thrown out in two separate courts! They were considered "worthless" by the courts. For those with open minds, let this be a teachable moment. The left will, and does, do anything and everything to bring conservatives down. There is a direct connection between the DNC, the White House, and mainstream media outlets. Journalism does not exist any more, except for a few well-known websites who actually do investigative, unbiased reporting. I can't handle reading the NYT or similar because I know that most of what I'm reading is complete and utter BS. And this Walker story proves that.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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This discussion seems to have strayed quite a bit from Amtrak. How about moving it to the open discussion forum.Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Greta Van Susteren (currently with Fox News, prior with CNN) is a well-known journalist and lawyer. Here is what she wrote on her Facebook page this morning about the poor "reporting" by the mainstream media of the Scott Walker issue, as well as the Hillary Clinton audiotape where she is heard laughing about a 12 year old rape victim. Read on: ___________ WORST REPORTING OF THE WEEK: about REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER AND DEMOCRAT HILLARY CLINTON
The media / journalists have an important job -- to get the facts right and to put those facts in a fair context. Reporters need to stop listening to each other and just reading each other's work and then repeating it. When they do that, they risk just repeating others' incorrect reporting. That is unfair and that is bad. Journalists should do original reporting - go to primary sources and stop just listening to each other. Two good examples this week:
If they did original reporting, the would know that yes, the prosecutor in Wisconsin in a document accused Governor Scott Walker of a crime (that is common and routine for a prosecutor) BUT OBVIOUSLY THE PROSECUTOR DID NOT TAKE IT SERIOUSLY SINCE NEVER CHARGED HIM WITH A CRIME. That is a HUGE difference - accusing v. charging. If the prosecutor thought Walker committed a crime, he just had to fill out a paper and charge him. And if he thought Walker committed a crime, it was his job to charge him - but that did not happen. Second, a Federal Judge ruled later that the conduct the prosecutor objected to is not a crime, that the alleged conduct fits within a loophole of the campaign law. That ruling is now on appeal to the US Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit but if it is upheld, it means that the prosecutor accused Governor Walker of innocent conduct (conduct that is not illegal.) If it is reversed, then Walker may have trouble but that is not where the facts stand now.
If they did original reporting, they would have read the court file in the Arkansas case (I did) and seen that the affidavit filed by then 27 year old lawyer Hillary Rodham was a routine application for a court ordered psychiatric evaluation of the complainant. It was not Clinton going after the accuser - but rather filing a routine application in her constitutional job to represent a client. Clinton said she had reports about the complainant and wanted the Court to pursue it further with an examination. That's routine. Second, if they did original reporting, they would have LISTENED to the tape and learned that Clinton's laughter (sarcastic I thought) was about polygraphs and not the complainant or the charge. Like with Governor Scott Walker, this is a big difference. The polygraph occurred when no doubt the client was claiming he was innocent to his lawyer Clinton. Clients do that...insist insist and insist innocence. He took polygraph and passed. He then later pleaded guilty and admitted his guilt ...to his lawyer Clinton and then in court at the plea.....hence the polygraph remark by Clinton.
Facts matter. I don't care whether someone supports Governor Walker or Secretary Clinton -- but at least we owe it to them (and to everyone) to do our best at getting the facts and not just repeating what we ourselves have read from others in the media. When you can go to the original or primary source, you should. __________
Well said, Greta...
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: This discussion seems to have strayed quite a bit from Amtrak. How about moving it to the Open Discussion forum
Excellent point, Mr. Palmland.
I've tried to originate material over at Open Forum, but do not seem to get any responses (there's no read count here). Most recent; MS or Apple OS.
Possibly the Moderatrix may choose to act upon this matter.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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While I admit guilt in continuing discussion here to matters unrelated to the Talgo trains (but nevertheless related to the political environment giving rise to the non-use of the equipment), this OPINION piece appearing in Today's Times gives support as to why many would sooner ascribe to material within alternative media rather than traditional sources:
That may be why politicians and journalists are now neck and neck in a race to the bottom of public trust. According to a poll released by Gallup last week, fewer than a quarter of news consumers trust what they read, watch or click on, a historic low.
Rail unrelated, but an interesting read for all regardless of where they stand on the political spectrum.
Posts: 10952 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Can anyone think of any event that they were involved in or had first hand knowledge of that was also reported in the news media where the reported "facts" and events matched up with reality, and to what extend if they did at all. I cannot in my 69 years.
Posts: 2975 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Can anyone think of any event that they were involved in or had first hand knowledge of that was also reported in the news media where the reported "facts" and events matched up with reality, and to what extend if they did at all. I cannot in my 69 years.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" (allegedly Mark Twain)
A mainstream and well-respected women's magazine in the UK once did an article on my mother, who had had a serious accident and recovered fully (thankfully). I sat there during the interview and the gist of it went like this: Mother: "...had very little movement in my legs..." Reporter: "Let's say you had no movement"
Mother: "...I just hoped I'd get better one day..." Reporter: "<writes>had given up hope of ever walking again"
Maybe the same people write the NYT rail articles?
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Being in the apartment business, I have never experienced an actual truthful report.
All journalists are taught to go for the emotional impact and ignore any details that would lessen the emotional impact.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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I learned the media lesson at a young age. When I was a fire department Explorer (a division of the Boy Scouts), I would go to scenes of accidents, large fires, and other emergencies. I would remember being excited to go home and watch the TV news to see if I made it on TV. However, when the news story came on, it's as if they were at a completely different incident than I was. I would sit there with my mouth open, and i would tell my parents, "That is NOT what happened----this guy is lying!". And it's been that way ever since. The media often get stories wrong, and I think it's on purpose.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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More news developments from Wisconsin -- A member of All Aboard Wisconsin discusses a recent passenger train excursion through Madison, over the route of the ex-MILW "Sioux" and "Varsity," with a Wisconsin Public TV reporter: Group seeks passenger rail through Madison to Chicago
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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