posted
Until as recently as the early 1990s local laws prevented bars from opening on Sundays in some rural areas of the UK, and I'm sure I read somewhere that even now Amtrak cannot sell alcohol on Sundays on some of its LD routes when the train goes through some districts/states where they still have similar legislation.
Tell me I wasn't dreaming, somebody, and am I correct that complete "prohibition" still exists in some parts of the US? (and does it include the area where "Jack Daniels" is made or is that just an urban legend?)
Posts: 395 | From: england | Registered: Sep 2002
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Yes, Mr. Williams, there are many "dry" areas in the U.S. where alcohol can't be sold on ANY day, leave alone Sunday -- mostly in some rural southern and midwestern counties.
I recall that, many years ago (and I don't know if this is still the case), in my early train-riding days, you could not purchase alcohol on the SWC while passing through Kansas, I believe. As I said, I don't know if that is still the case or not, however.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr. Rich, the Kansas matter you note once had the Chief stopped at "Mayberry" and "Barney Fife' boarded to haul the Conductor off to the hoosegow, because liquor was being served in "his" jurisdiction.
At one time, railroads were compelled to observe "local law', I can recall once riding the Coast Daylight during June 1962 with the Lounge Car open, but the Attendant with less than nothing to do. Reason, it was a primary election day in California.
But to my best knowledge, "local law' has no application to Amtrak or any other interstate carrier - including Big Bird 'upstairs' at FL31
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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You're correct in your statement. Historically, railroads would try to observe local liquor laws. But when Amtrak came into existence in 1971, they argued that they were a Federally chartered corporation engaged in interstate commerce, and therefore not bound by state liquor laws. I am not aware of any successful challenges to this assertion by any state.
I've often thought about the difficulty KCS must have had, as its line zigzagged across the Missouri/Kansas border, in determining when liquor could be legally served (while in MO) and when not (in KS).
I'm glad Amtrak no longer worries about such silliness.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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However, 2 or 3 years ago I boarded NB Crescent in Atlanta on a Sunday evening. Dinner was being served and someone in the diner within earshot was refused wine service. They were told they would have to wait until the South Carolina border. He was outraged and stomped out.
Posts: 326 | From: San Antonio Texas USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rresor: ...when Amtrak came into existence in 1971, they argued that they were a Federally chartered corporation engaged in interstate commerce, and therefore not bound by state liquor laws...
I live in a small drinking village with a big fishing problem.
Being that's the case, I find this discussion to be very frightening. But I am interested in knowing whether or not state fish and game laws apply to Amtrak.
You know, could a guy (without local license) legally toss out a line while the train is delayed in a siding, say, in the middle of a Mississippi swamp?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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Jack Daniels Distillery: Lynchburg, Tennessee. Note, this is Tennessee, not the much larger town of the same name in Virginia.
Even though the tag line on Jack Daniels is "Jack Daniel Distillery, Lem Motlow, Proprietor, Route 1, Lynchburg [Pop.361], Tennessee 37352.", there really is no defined corporate limits for the "city" of Lynchburg. They operate with a combined city-county government, and Moore County itself has a total (2000 Census) population of 5,740. This is a one industry county (the Distillery) with no railroads. The only other industry is farming, with the primary crop being tobacco, mostly in small allotments. The terrain is hilly and the ground rocky, so it really does not lend itself to any large-scale agriculture. I guess at one time Lem Motlow was a real person, as there is a Motlow Community College, which I had never heard of until I looked up Lynchburg on-line.
Tennessee is a county option state on liquor laws, so the county could be dry. I have also heard all my life that it is dry but never checked it out. I have driven though it only one time, over 30 years ago, and did not have time to try to check out the truth of the rumor. Being a lifetime non-drinker this sort of knowledge is not one of my priorities, anyway.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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The urban legend is true. According to my exhaustive research (Wikipedia and the guy on the bar stool next to mine), Jack Daniels of Lynchburg is located in "dry" Moore County, TN.
It's been a dry county since prohibition. Their law can only be repealed if 1,000 resident voters sign a petition. According to my friend sitting next to me, they have not been able to gather 1,000 registered voters sober enough to sign the petition.
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by zephyr: The urban legend is true. According to my exhaustive research (Wikipedia and the guy on the bar stool next to mine), Jack Daniels of Lynchburg is located in "dry" Moore County, TN.
It's been a dry county since prohibition. Their law can only be repealed if 1,000 resident voters sign a petition. According to my friend sitting next to me, they have not been able to gather 1,000 registered voters sober enough to sign the petition.
As Will Rogers once said, "Oklahomans will vote dry as long as they can stagger to the polls."
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amtrak could just ban alcohol from all trains, and enforce it. It works on the buses in my city, and it would probably work on Amtrak trains as well. A few people wouldn't like being denied their booze, but more people would appreciate their fellow passengers being sober. A train is essentially a public place. And there wouldn't be any more problems with the state liquor laws.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 4021North: Amtrak could just ban alcohol from all trains...A train is essentially a public place...
Interesting point, Mr. North.
Of course, some would counter that restaurants, airplanes, and bars are "public places." Is your point to ban alcohol there? All public places (like some States have legislated for smokers)?
But let's say you're not Carrie Nation reincarnate and limit our discussion to just Amtrak. Here we have a travel mode where "guests" are confined for long periods of time with no reasonalbe options for escape. And from my experience, self-medicated passengers (alcohol or alternatives) have caused most "guest" behaviorial problems on the train.
Currently, Amtrak seems to have a policy of encouraging the consumption of alcohol. They liquor-up the "sleeper people." You know, complimentary wine tasting and handing out bottles of wine to Amtrak trivia winners. Now, don't get me wrong. I haven't taken "the pledge," and have enjoyed these events greatly. But aren't they aiding and abetting, if not encouraging, the consumption of alcohol (just as ashtrays in the original Superliners implicitly OK'd smoking).
And lounge attendants seem to be constantly on the PA informing passengers of the availability of adult beverages. Alcohol sales are probably a "profit center" for Amtrak. I haven't bought a beer onboard for years (I smuggle in my own Boones Farm), but isn't the price of a can about sporting arena level? As is the price of wine and mixed drinks?
But remember tobacco used to sold in the lounge, and I suppose at a tidy profit.
So let's say we agree that Amtrak has no business selling booze. There's certainly reasons not to (for example, passenger behaviorial problems, corruption of minors, and scientific studies establishing the harmful effects of second-hand drinking).
So my question is why do they do it? I think it's mostly an economic motive, and secondarily a historical throwback to the days bygone.
But they've banished smokers, so why not boozers? I can just hear it now: "Next stop Minot. Minot is a smoking and drinking stop. But you lepers stay close to the train, as it's a $500 cab ride to Rugby if you get left behind."
Contrarian thoughts? Is it "Amtrak dry," or "Save the Bar Car." Or something betwingst?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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I can understand an alcohol ban on a bus -especially a long distance one if you are sat next to a drunk for twenty hours - but with a train you can at least get up and move to another coach. However, I could support separate "drinking" and "non-drinking" sections, or alcohol being restricted to the restaurant/bar area
Getting back to the original point, City of Miami seems to indicate that local rules may still apply to the Crescent in some jurisdictions, and for some reason Arkansas and the Texas Eagle on Sundays is ringing a bell.
In the UK local laws never applied to trains - nor opening or closing hours - they could serve alcohol 24 hours a day (although the number of sleeper/overnight trains for the whole country could probably now be counted on the fingers of one hand!)
Posts: 395 | From: england | Registered: Sep 2002
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Agreed, alcohol sales are profitable for Amtrak. But why then is the dining car inventory limited to wine? Sit down in any restaurant with a bar, and the first thing you're offered is a cocktail. Has anyone ever encountered dining car staff who've suggested wine, let alone a mixed drink? Not me.
I assume that hard liquor and mixers are not stocked in the diner, and that lounge and diner have separate inventories and accounting. So, serving a cocktail in the diner would mean extra time, steps and money handling that the diner staff can or will not do, and would contribute nothing to the diner's bottom line. I suppose, too, that table turnover would be slowed by a cocktail hour.
So, could I buy a drink in the lounge and bring it into the diner with me? Probably, but the rules do say no consumption of outside food or drink in the diner or lower lounge. Does this apply? If so, how likely is it that it would be enforced?
Bringing my own wine into the diner would be a very nice option. I'd be happy to pay "corkage" as in some restaurants. Couldn't corkage be added to the menu? Regretably, no one's thought of it.
So, if I asked nicely, could I get a martini before dinner in the diner?
Posts: 103 | From: St. Louis, MO USA | Registered: Oct 2002
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BYOW to the Diner? I did it once during the Amtrak era, Mr. Boomer.
This was on the Super Chief circa 1972; the Steward was happy to properly present it (a Château Lafite Rothschild Bordeaux, no less) for self and guests. I offered corkage (wasn't going to "look too close" to see if it were recorded on the check) but such was declined.
A memorable Amtrak journey to Kansas City.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well, a Chateau Lafitte sure beats the Sutter Hill White Zinfandel purveyed by Amtrak.
As to Amtrak and local alcohol restritions, yes, initially Amtrak observed state laws just as had the predecessor roads. I remember sitting in the obs on the "Broadway" in June 1972. As we crossed the Indiana line (it was a Sunday) the porter declared the bar closed, to a chorus of groans.
But, IIRC, under Paul Reistrup Amtrak's legal counsel took a look at the situation and likened it to serving liquor on airplanes. They don't stop serviing while you're in Indiana airspace, so why should Amtrak have to stop serving? Are thirsty Indiana residents really going to buy Amtrak tix just so they can have a drink?
And so it went.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Stlboomer: A martini on Amtrak (vodka or gin?)...they don't do martinis. Neither do airlines. I recall traveling on the Coast Starlight from Oakland to Santa Barbara (small bedroom for day travel)when a passenger in the parlor car was informed that they don't have martinis. Well, he went on and on. Would be nice if they did, but not necessary. Well,I don't think so anyway.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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So, could I buy a drink in the lounge and bring it into the diner with me? Probably, but the rules do say no consumption of outside food or drink in the diner or lower lounge. Does this apply? If so, how likely is it that it would be enforced?
Stlboomer,I think the reference to "outside" means brought on the train with you. I've had no problem with bringing my martini with me from lounge to diner. You do have to bring your own olives though.
Posts: 518 | From: Maynard, MA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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As I recall, the KS AG in the late 60s/early 70s did try to fly people on airplanes and shut down the bar...
It flopped. Amazing what happens when an airline captain declares an emergency, sets the plane down, and has asked the station manager to summon the local gendarerie for help.
Of course, KS is the place where if you're not a card carrying member of the John Birch Society, you are not a Republican.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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After Mr. Century's report let me qualify that you have to substitue white wine for the vermouth, and bring your own olives, but it can be done if you're focused.
Posts: 518 | From: Maynard, MA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The more I think about it, the more convinced I get Amtrak should go "dry."
We got rid of smokers. Now it's time to 86 the drinkers.
Look, Amtrak is a government agency. Personally, I don't want my tax dollars being used to encourage drug use. And alcohol is most certainly a drug, and we all know it can lead to harmful consequences.
As a government agency, Amtrak should be a role model for healthy travel. It should be the healthy transportation alternative.
We're moving in the right direction. First smokers; next drinkers; and then we'll deal with junk food addicts.
Yes, junk food is next after we take care of the drinkers. I mean, I don't think there's anything more disgusting than the offerings in the lounge car (well, maybe some Superliner bathrooms I've encountered might have been more disgusting).
Am I the only one who is reminded of my neighborhood gas station convenience store when I walk up to the counter of an Amtrak lounge? Except for the racks of cigarettes (which we only got rid of a relatively short time ago), it's the same. Beer, candy, and greasy junk food.
I thought we had problems in this country with obesity, alcoholism, and high blood pressure. Why is our government's transportation system contributing to these health problems?
I dream of the day when lounge cars will resemble the organic produce section at Whole Foods rather than the Qwiky Mart on Interstate 80.
I dream of the day when I overhear a young lad say "Mommy, I want some more carrots." And her stern but caring reply "Not one more carrot, young man, until you finish your tofu and celery."
I dream of the day when we'll hear the announcement on the PA "May I have your attention. This is Pierre, your onboard nutrition counselor. There will be complimentary organic vegetable juice tasting in the Parlour Car immediately following this afternoon's yoga classes. Won't you please join us and enjoy the fun."
But I'm a realist. It's one step at a time. First we deal with the alcohol. It will be a tough battle, but we will prevail. And then we march on to dealing with the junk food.
I'm sure my fellow enlightened progressive thinkers are with me on this.
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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I really hope this is satire in the best tradition of Swift's "A Modest Proposal"...
If not, you will have seen my last mile on Amtrak, EVER, and I will actively advocate the dissolution of Amtrak at the Congressional level.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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PullmanCo, when have you ever known me to be anything but dead-on serious?
By the way, do you have any updates on the happenings at Kansas City Union Station? I visited last summer, and it was great. But I did hear some rumblings about financial problems. Are the displays and business occupancies holding up?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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Seems to be OK. USPS took over the general office space on the main floor as the downtown KC postoffice. Old Post Office is now the IRS building for KC with a lot of new construction.
The REA express buildings on the South side of the terminal are fully renovated and fully rented.
Science City? Its biggest problem is it has a low range target audience. They forgot... EXHIBITS WEAR when kids are hands-on. Contrast KC museum with St Louis kids science museum.
Old Harvey house lunchroom area, which had been a sorta food court, is now a single coffeeshop!
Pierponts' is still going.
From what I can tell, the Union Station museum display may be out of service, they may have rented that space. I'd have to go there and see.
At the North End, where Fred Harvey once had a second lunchroom operation, the travelling exhibits are doing great. We had the Dead Sea Scrolls last winter.
I despise the railroad museum. Someone did a quicky. Bought a collection without regard for the fact that Kansas City has a unique RR history. Why in the devil do we have GN obs and a MILW diner??????? Santa Fe, Burlington, UP, Wabash, GM&O, Rock Island ... there's lots of history if you target the right area. The guy US got as its curator was the local NRHS chapter president. He sold his soul imo.
KC has acquired a former KC C Ry PCC car. It's on the west lawn, awaiting integration as an exhibit. I've seen the shell of a 2d PCC car in the downtown area.
PV Metis (ex CN) continues to make her home on the house tracks. An ex-Santa Fe PV visits now and again.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by zephyr: But I'm a realist. It's one step at a time. First we deal with the alcohol. It will be a tough battle, but we will prevail. And then we march on to dealing with the junk food.
First they need to go back to cooking and serving food, not boil-in-the-bag/TV-dinner/microwave-meal fare which are generally high in everything bad (salt, sugar, etc).
I saw an article about Frontier Airlines resisting a plan by New Mexico to force them to have a liquor license if they are to serve alcohol on any flight originating from within the state. The article mentioned that Amtrak (and airlines other than Frontier) already have NM liquor licenses. Presumably they also do for every other state they pass through which also requires it.
Bourbon county in... Tennessee?... doesn't produce any bourbon, according to the Thirsty Traveller.
And finally, wasn't the CZ subject to some Utah laws whilst passing through the state - possibly back in the 1990s but not necessarily nowadays?
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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zephyr....you are amusing, LOL! Yes we must have rabbit food in the lounge car(as my dear late aunt called crudite).
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Thanks for the excellent update, PullmanCo.
We attended the Oregon California Trail Association convention in St Jo last summer. We added some days to our itinerary to explore the KC area. Union Station was certainly one of the highlights for me.
Looking forward to a return visit.
As for you, Mr. Century. What's this about eating rabbits? That's disgusting. Hey, we're trying to raise the nutrition consciousness on Amtrak, not replicate the diet favored in dueling-banjos country.
posted
I think if we are going to have onboard nutrition counselors we should also have available the services of a life coach. A fat free organic chicken fried steak would also be nice. I would also be in favor of 100% macrobiotic menu selections so I could still have a beer.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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No beer, Mr. Rocket. None. Nada. Zip. Our goal is to make Amtrak an alcohol-free zone. So stop whining--it's the way it's going to be.
But your idea of onboard life coaches is a good one (surprisingly, considering the source}. I like any idea that would contribute to the health and personal growth of Amtrak passengers. You know, it's all part of the big picture of the New Age Amtrak.
For example, once we've conquered the alcohol and junk food crisis, I think we should start working on the despicable attire some people wear on trains. It's disgusting how some people dress on Amtrak. Jeez, I've seen people dressed better at mud wrestling events.
For starters, I think there should be a sign prominently displayed at the entrance to the diner warning:
No Rolex No Birkenstocks No Service
That'll put people on notice that this is not just another greasy spoon joint that they're probably accustomed to. Loud and clear, it sends out the message this is Amtrak, and we have class. A healthy and classy mode of travel.
You gotta think big, Mr. Rocket. Just close your eyes and try to visualize the Amtrak we could have. We just need to be patient and take it one step at a time.
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by zephyr: not replicate the diet favored in dueling-banjos country.
Ya don't like dueling banjo country? Larn to or I'll pull out mah favorite 12 gauge and blow a few holes in ye!
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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No, no, no George. Lower that Remington 870 Wingmaster, will ya. It was just a figure of speach. I love dueling-banjo country. Really do. I enjoy nothing more than rockin' on the porch listening to a banjo picker. More pickers the better.
I was just trying to suggest maybe Amtrak passengers aren't quite ready for country fried rabbit. But--watch that barrel, please--but, but I could be wrong. Maybe Mr. Century is onto something.
Hey, look George, is that a possum over yonder?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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When i took the crescent from atl to dc a couple of years ago, no alcohol sales were allowed while the train passed through south carolina. it was a sunday evening, i believe, and maybe there was a law against sunday alcohol sales.
Posts: 416 | From: St. Albans, Vermont | Registered: Feb 2003
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I suppose if I had a life coach AND the soothing sound of bagpipes I could get along without the beer.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dueling Banjos? Bagpipes? Next thing you know some fool will bring up ponies and how alcohol is prohibited aboard the stagecoaches they pull!
Zephyr, when junk food goes, will the Country Fried Steak go too.......or will we just designate that as the 'non-vegetarian' plate?
In Ponies We Trust!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Change can be difficult, Mr. Rocket. But please consider this forum as your support group. We'll help you through these difficult times. But no beer--sometimes tough love is necessary.
But I actually have a serious question for you. I think I've mentioned I have relatives in Zip Code 5 (up Puposky way). All this talk about eating rabbits and possum reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask you.
My Puposky cousins tell me they eat loon (you know, your state bird). They say it's real good; that it tastes just like owl.
Is that true, Mr. Rocket?
And regarding the question from Pony Boy about Chicken Fried Steak, I would be OK with keeping it. I think we can find a place for it in the New Age Amtrak. You know, for nostalgia reasons. It could remain the perpetual "special" on the dinner menu.
No one in their right mind ever orders it, so I see no harm in keeping it. On the extremely rare occassion someone (like Mr. Rocket) actually does order it, we can train the servers to politely say they've "unexpectedly run out of it" due to the high demand for this fine dish (and then descretely notify Amtrak security there's a seriously unbalanced person aboard the train).
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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At one time one of the joke items you could buy in some stores in Mississippi was a tuna fish can size item that rattled when you shook it. It was labeled something like:
Sun Dried Possum Contents: dried possum, asphalt flakes, rubber particles. Packed by Mississippi Highway Department Road Crew No. 7.
Didn't buy one. Gone several months later when I decided I wanted one.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Thank you Ira for adding class to this silly thread.
Zephyr, there was in fact a picture this week in the local paper of "loon on a stick", the latest offering at the Minnesota State Fair.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Just when I was thinking "Where's Ira when you need him?", you appear. Great job.
You know, I think there might be a position for you in the New Age Amtrak. Onboard Poet (OBP). Since we've successfully ridded ourselves of TV's, we're working on onboard entertainment alternatives that will raise the cultural experience on Amtrak.
Mixing in some poetry readings with the live bagpipe performances might be just the ticket.
But just as you raise the class level of this discussion, along comes Mr. Rocket to offset it. I mean, "loon on a stick" is a featured menu item at the Minnesota State Fair? Yuk, that's disgusting. Once again, I rest my case about Zip Code 5.
The the "loon on a stick" thing makes me think the New Age Amtrak might want to consider some route changes. For example they could re-route the Builder south from Fargo, and take a northern Iowa route toward Chicago. There are just some areas of the country the New Age Amtrak may not want to serve.
I know this proposal to annul train service to your area upsets you, Mr. Rocket. I can feel the vibes. But cool off. Just count to ten. Here, let me help. Take a deep breath, and repeat after me: one, eh?...two, eh?...three, eh?...
Feel better? Good. Look, Amtrak could still provide you with connecting services. Maybe not Thruway Bus service, since that might be costly and more than we need. But they could pick up a few army surplus duece and a half's, and truck Zip 5 passengers to make train connections.
Those M35 2 1/2 ton cargo trucks are bargains right now. Being almost indestructible, they're great for frozen tundra winter driving common in your area. And they're easy to maintain. After dropping off you Zip 5'ers at a civilized train station, you just "gas and hose". You know, top off the diesel tanks and wash out the back with fire hoses, and you're ready for the next load.
Honestly, what is there not to like about the New Age Amtrak?
Posts: 445 | Registered: May 2002
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