posted
To take this somewhat back on topic, Both Amtrak (at least NEC), and Metro North put out a bulletin order yesterday prohibiting operating crews from using cell phones while on duty. I didn't see the exact wording but I assume with limited exceptions...
Posts: 332 | From: Long Island, NY USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mr Kisor: thank you for your info on texting for the deaf. I hadn't thought of that advantage for some.
-------------------- My new "default" station (EKH) has no baggage service or QuikTrak machine, but the parking is free! And the NY Central RR Museum is just across the tracks (but not open at Amtrak train times. . ..) Posts: 337 | From: Goshen, IN | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Texting is not soley an obsession of careless youth at all. It is actually cheaper to send a text than to make a peak-time call on most plans. It also allows DISCRETION when communicating. Its not just teenagers that require such discetion.
-------------------- Patrick Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Amtraxmaniac, you are so right about discretion while texting. Two years ago, a Miss Deaf Texas was killed by a freight train while walking along tracks rapt in her text messager.
Texting while driving is even stupider than cell phoning while driving. But people who should know better do it anyway.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The NTSB update posted on the other thread stated the engineer was working a split shift. What effect, if any, could that have had in contributing to the accident?
Also, is split shift scheduling commonplace (industry-wide - not just Metrolink)for engineers?
Posts: 20 | From: Zephyrhills, FL | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Split shifts" are quite commonplace in railroad, freight and passenger, service, Ms. Floridian. The Hours of Service Law permits such provided the break in service ("respite" in real railroadese) is not less than four hours and "suitable lodging" is provided for the break. In which case, the "respite" is a "time-out'; allowing the statutory "twelve hours" of service to be considerably extended. Example: an Engineer reports for duty a 6AM; he operates a train until 1130A at which time he is directed to go off duty (and provided "suitable lodging") and return to duty at 4PM. He then operates a train until 9PM. Overall time on duty 15hours, less 4.5hr 'respite'. Time 'at the throttle' 10.5hr, or "legal" under Hours of Service.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
GBN - Thanks for the explanation. I was worried that he had to go home between shifts.
Posts: 20 | From: Zephyrhills, FL | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well I don't think Norman should kick Jonathon, regardless of his spelling.
And BTW the NYTimes no longer is the newspaper of record in the U.S. It has fallen, like most dailies (18 out of the Top 20), as circulation spirals downward, and objectivity disappears, and that ultra-liberal bent manifests itself in the NYT news columns. "The Gray Lady?" I think not. Try "The Dead Lady." And besides, it doesn't even have comics.
posted
I have another question: What is CP Topanga anyway? Is it the switch where there's a crossover to the siding? Why is it called Topanga and others 40 or 50, etc. Is that name of an intersecting street? What does CP stand for?
Posts: 326 | From: San Antonio Texas USA | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
Three people that should know what they were looking at say they saw the signal and it was green.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by City of Miami: I have another question: What is CP Topanga anyway? Is it the switch where there's a crossover to the siding? Why is it called Topanga and others 40 or 50, etc. Is that name of an intersecting street? What does CP stand for?
CP Topanga is the switch at the west (compass north) end of the siding. "CP" means "Control Point"
Way back on the first page of this thread:
Here is the situation of the area, listed in the direction of the Metrolink train:
446.8 CP DeSoto, east end siding 445.5 Chatsworth Station 444.4 CP Topanga, west end siding 444.0 east portal Tunnel No. 28 443.9 west portal Tunnel No. 28 (tunnel 537 feet long)
Allowed Speeds Freight: 40 mph throughout the area. (60 mph west of 437.7) Passenger: 50 mph – 440.9-442.6 40 mph – 442.6-444.5 70 mph – 444.5-453.1 Moving through turnouts at CP's DeSoto and Topanga and on the siding between those points, 45P/40F
Note: Even though the railroad direction is westbound for the train, the orientation of the track through Chatsworth station and the CP DeSoto to CP Topanga siding is almost exactly south to north, so there is no "sun in his eyes" possible.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks, George. Is 'CP' railroadese for switch? I deduced from your post on the first page of this thread that CP designated the ends of the siding so must be the switches. Where do the names come from, i.e. DeSoto/Topanga, just out of curiosity. 'Control Point' - that's what I totally didn't know and couldn't find and google didn't help me out for once!
Posts: 326 | From: San Antonio Texas USA | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Topanga is the name of an indian tribe that used to live in the area. and I would guess Desoto comes from the explorer.
Posts: 229 | From: Long Beach CA | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Three people that should know what they were looking at say they saw the signal and it was green.
According to reports here and elsewhere, the last two signals were not called out. There is a signal at CP DeSoto, an intermediate one before Chatsworth, and the end-of-siding one at CP Topanga. The one at CP DeSoto apparently shows flashing yellow if the Topanga signal is red; the intermediate one showing steady yellow. This makes sense with the linespeeds and stopping distances quoted. Have there been any reports of whether or what aspect was called for the DeSoto signal? If it was called as green then the Metrolink had some sort of proceed aspect at Topanga; if it was called as flashing yellow then he didn't.
If the Topanga signal was showing a false proceed aspect then it doesn't matter what the data loggers in the interlocking show, as they only report what they commanded the signal to do, not what it actually did. Depending on the installation, one loose wire between the interlocking and the lamps themselves could be all it needs to false-feed the DR (green) aspect. This is what happened at Clapham (UK, late 1980s) which resulted in all new installations needing double-cutting of relays to help prevent stray wires false-feeding vital contacts.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
With due respect, I think US signal systems are a bit more sophisticated than those in Britain, and it would take more than one loose wire to produce a false clear. Also, the signal at CP Topanga is an "absolute" (home) signal whose normal (default) display would be red. If it were green continuously, someone certainly would have noticed.
For the record, the engineer did call the signal at CP DeSoto as "advance approach" (flashing yellow), as I understand it. The next signal, just before the Chatsworth stop, would have displayed solid yellow (approach). It is almost inconceivable to me that the home signal at CP Topanga could have displayed clear in these circumstances.
In any case, all commands sent to, and responses received from, the field are logged. Again, the default indication would have been "stop". The dispatcher reversed the switch and then cleared the signal for the eastbound freight into the siding. That would have required the signal governing a westbound move on the main track to be red. As I understand it, tests by NTSB confirmed everything was in order. No loose wires.
A false clear is possible on an intermediate (automatic) signal if the track circuit doesn't shunt properly. On a home signal, it's literally impossible unless the signal is wired incorrectly -- and NTSB's tests would have uncovered that.
A bigger question, to me, is why engineer Sanchez took no action. If he was alert, he should have seen the red signal and also the freight, in time to initiate emergency braking. If he was incapacitated, in the time it took for the train to travel from the Chatsworth stop to the collision, the "alertor" in the cab should have stopped the train (they require a response every 30 seconds or so, and I understand it took 80 seconds from departure Chatsworth to the accident).
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
With due respect, I think US signal systems are a bit more sophisticated than those in Britain, and it would take more than one loose wire to produce a false clear. Also, the signal at CP Topanga is an "absolute" (home) signal whose normal (default) display would be red. If it were green continuously, someone certainly would have noticed.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on which is more sophisticated! As I said before, we require double cutting which means it takes TWO loose wires doing the same false feed in order to get a wrong side failure. Double cutting in this instance means both the positive and return wires both being put through relay contacts, compared to your traditional method of just switching either one or the other, usually the positive.
All I was trying to do was explain how, if the onlookers were correct, a green could have been shown whilst the data loggers recorded a red being commanded. If the engineer did call an advance approach then that sounds like the signal *should* have been red.
I don't have the typical US signalling circuits with me at the moment but I agree that with your statements about false indications being "literally impossible". FWIW, US signalling circuits are very similar to UK circuits in the foundation levels, even using the same relay contact names. Where they sometimes differ is that of aspect control. That one possibility is as I stated above - far beyond the reach of data loggers as it's the final link between interlocking and signal lamps. An unlikely scenario but one which has happened before. And I'm not theorising that this is what happened here; just trying to explain one possible reason IF the onlookers were correct in their statements that the signal was green.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, Geoff -- they should call this forum "AMTRAK/VIA/Commuter/International/Tourist Trains/Bagpipes/Passenger Trains"
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
It does not seem unreasonable to me that the Metrolink crash is being discussed in the Amtrak forum. After all, an important consequence of the accident is that it gave considerable impetus to the passage of the rail safety bill (which included Amtrak funding) in the Senate.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Twin Star -- we are also forgetting "the use of quotation marks"......... (LOL)
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Further to my earlier statement about false feeds causing false proceed aspects, I stumbled across this website today which lists a fair few of them. There are pages for each of 1996 to 2004 but no later for some reason. Some reports are due to sunlight, others due to wire degradation, still more due to wiring faults whether design or installation faults, and various other reasons.
Funny, when a man goofs, the answer that everyone jumps on is an electrical or electronic babysitter. When the mechanical big brother goof up the answer that everyone jumps on is . . . another bigger and better electronic babysitter. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
With respect, Mr. Harris, Positive Train Control isn't just "a bigger and better babysitter". It's a totally different type of control philosophy than conventional block signals. Via the on-board computer, a dispatcher can authorize the train to proceed to a certain point and no farther. Back in the 1980s, Burlington Northern ran a PTC test for nearly three years in the Iron Range of Minnesota. As a test, an engineer was ordered to try to violate a movement authority. Under protest, as directed by a supervisor (with witnesses), he attempted to pass a red signal. The train was brought to a smooth "full service" stop by the computer. Further attempts by the engineer to release the brakes and move the train were futile.
The technology works just fine. It isn't absolutely, totally "fail safe" -- nothing is -- but it works a whole lot better than cab signals without any enforcement at all.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
