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» RAILforum » Passenger Trains » Amtrak » Amtrak Mgmt. Threw My Stickers Away (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Amtrak Mgmt. Threw My Stickers Away
Steve O.
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A friend of mine in New Orleans called me last night. He was at the NOL station waiting to meet someone coming in on the Crescent.

Anyway, while he was there, he asked the agent at the counter about the "Save The Sunset" stickers that I had passed out a couple of weeks back.

Apparently, they didn't last all that long.

Upper management in D.C found out about it and made sure all of the stickers were thrown away. I suppose that having stickers saying "SAVE THE SUNSET" were too controversial since the powers that be in Washington D.C, for some reason, do not support extending the service back to Orlando.

Upper management at Amtrak seems to be extremely detached at times from what people actually want.

Am I disappointed? Yes, to an extent. Am I surprised? No. Pretty much par for the course with corporate America. Will I press on? Absolutely.

And once again, I realize that getting this train back to ORL is a one in a million shot, so I am not assuming that what I am doing will amount to a hill of beans in the end. But, it's something I feel strongly about. The story of the Sunset Limited should be known by anyone even remotely interested in passenger rail in the country.

--------------------
Good morning America, how are ya?

44,950 Amtrak rail miles traveled since August 18, 2003.

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smitty195
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I'm not surprised either. When you have Amtrak car attendants who want to do a good job by leaving sweets on pillows at night (that they purchased at their own expense), or brining magazines for the passengers to read (again, at their own expense), or putting up a flower hanging from the ceiling so that elderly people will know which car is theirs (I frequently see them go through all of the cars trying to figure out which one is theirs)-----and then the employees get in trouble for doing a good job---well, hey, that's Amtrak for you. I really should stop be surprised at how INCREDIBLY incompetent, inept, and wishy-washy that company is.
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Henry Kisor
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Smitty195, have those things really happened? Have Amtrak attendants gotten into trouble for providing amenities at their own expense? What is your source of this information?

I've heard of on-board staff going out of their way and with their own pockets (i.e., a chef brought his own "doctor bag" of spices) but never heard of retaliation against them.

Possibly these things happened, or stories about them cropped up, during the bitter years before the employees finally won a new contract.

I'm not saying that what you say is not true, but it is a great surprise to me.

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smitty195
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Henry,

Yes, it has happened several times. I do not deal in rumors. The most recent was a few months ago with the flower on the ceiling. The attendant was verbally counseled by a train manager, and told to immediately take it down.

Andy

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Henry Kisor
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Andy:

Jeez. Did the train manager say why he wanted the flower gone? There has to be more to it than just wanting it down.

I've been on both sides of union issues, and there are always (at least) two points of view about employee actions. It's hard to believe management would want to stifle initiative without having a good reason to do so. (Not that it hasn't!)

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SunsetLtd
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It's great that you're continuing on! If you can try to send some to ELP I know every Amtrak employee there and they most of the time don't care what the people "upstairs" say.

--------------------
www.youtube.com/Amsunset

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notelvis
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I wonder if you might get more bang for your buck trying to do some sort of newspaper or magazine advertising campaign.......something that doesn't put front line Amtrak employees at odds with their upper-level management.

Regardless - you are to be commended for taking action rather than just grousing. Thumbs up and best wishes.

--------------------
David Pressley

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Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes.

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TwinStarRocket
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One of the best lounge car attendants I have ever encountered was named Al, on the Southwest Chief about 7 years ago. He almost never left the car, entertained everyone, and even brought his own (better) selection of movies than Amtrak was offering. (He faithfully turned down the sound before a curse word was used.)

He told me he had been reprimanded more than anyone working for Amtrak, due to his initiative straying beyond the expected mediocrity. He said he would have been fired except for his seniority and the union protecting him.

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Henry Kisor
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Again, this is a mystery to me. Why would management stifle such initiative? It would be useful to get management's side on this issue.
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smitty195
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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Kisor:


Jeez. Did the train manager say why he wanted the flower gone? There has to be more to it than just wanting it down.


The manager told the attendant that putting a flower on the ceiling at the entrance to the car was "not in the manual", therefore it was a prohibited procedure. Of course after the flower came down, I heard one older man and woman come back through a sleeper (after walking through the other two) saying that they walked right past their room because they were looking for the flower to ID which car was theirs.

I don't know what the method to the madness is with "rule" enforcement on Amtrak. And therein lies one of the problems with Amtrak....spotty enforcement, wishy-washy explanations for things, and different managers do different things.

For anyone familiar with the Coast Starlight and the Pacific Parlour Car, one of the original attendants is Richard Talmy (he now works the dining car on the Southwest Chief). He was the best! He brought his own PA system and microphone and lots of other extras, and gave a rolling narrative of scenery we were passing. It was great, and the passengers really enjoyed it. Of course, once a manager found out about it, they told him "no more". This is one of the reasons he stopped working as a PPC attendant and went over to the Chief. Amtrak does not allow their employees to be creative and do fun things that the passengers enjoy. Instead, Amtrak pushes their employees to be half-assed, marginal, mediocre employees. And if they are less than that, they just turn the other cheek and ignore it.

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Mr. Toy
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quote:
Originally posted by NativeSon5859:
Anyway, while he was there, he asked the agent at the counter about the "Save The Sunset" stickers that I had passed out a couple of weeks back.

Apparently, they didn't last all that long.

Upper management in D.C found out about it and made sure all of the stickers were thrown away. I suppose that having stickers saying "SAVE THE SUNSET" were too controversial since the powers that be in Washington D.C, for some reason, do not support extending the service back to Orlando.


Before you get too riled up against Amtrak management, consider their point of view. The slogan "Save the Sunset" implies that the entire route is threatened with shutdown. I can well understand why Amtrak wouldn't want such a message to be distributed on their property because, frankly it is misleading. Had the stickers said "Support the Sunset" Amtrak probably would have allowed them to stay.

To give you a related example: Many years ago I worked in a historic theater, the Elsinore, owned by a movie theater chain. The building was a little tarnished with age and some neglect, but far from crumbling into ashes. A citizens group wanted the city to buy the theater and restore it for a performing arts facility. A group calling themselves the "Save the Elsinore Committee" was formed, and soon after many of our customers were coming in asking "Why do they want to tear this place down?" We had to explain that nobody was planning to tear the theater down. It was still a profitable business. While our company was willing to work with this "Save the Elsinore" group, the misinformation they put out strained relations between them and us. Eventually it was sold to a non-profit group which restored the building and made it into a performing arts center. But it took time and long, patient negotiations.

So choose your words carefully. You need to get your message out, but you also need to maintain good relations with Amtrak, or your efforts will be for naught.

As for Parlour Car attendants supposedly being stifled, Tom and Nantette added their personal touches and nobody stopped them. Nanette used to put a sign on the door that said "Welcome to Nanette's Pacific Parlour Car." and Tom would bring his classical CD collection and play music on his own portable sound system. He also made announcements about the sights, using the car's PA system.

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Henry Kisor
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It just occurred to me that maybe Amtrak's lawyers discourage employee actions that are not "in the manual" because they might inadvertently lead to a lawsuit. Perhaps particularly "creative" employees are considered loose cannons of liability.

This is just speculation. I'll see if I can find out the truth from my contacts within Amtrak management.

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Mr. Toy
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It has been my observation that as large corporations go, Amtrak gives its employees far more leeway in personal expression than any other I have seen. Most large corporations require their employees to use formulaic phrases, officially sanctioned greetings, and other codes of behavior. But on Amtrak I have seen a dining car steward turn a six hour delay into the basis of an impromptu comedy act, servers who used self-depreciating humor, a sleeping car attendant who set up his own GPS display for riders to view in his room, and more. I'm sure Amtrak has some pretty strict rules, but as far as personal expression goes, Amtrak tends to let their employees be themselves.
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ellenorigby
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Well don't forget folks, in this country today we do so much "walking on ice" so that no one is offended that Amtrak has to cover their behinds. I agree though that I love when you get a creative car attendent and it makes your trip just a little more special. I think Amtrak should reward this creative behavior and not stiffle it..... [Smile]
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Henry Kisor
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Agreed, Ellenorigby. I thought hanging a flower at the vestibules to denote a particular car was a very good move. What did Amtrak's on-board lawyers think, the flower was going to fall and crush somebody's foot? Looks like a train manager was trying to cover HIS heinie against all possibilities.
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mr williams
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Sadly, most things like this are down to the threat of litigation. A steward brings in his own movie to show, but it is rated for over 15s and somebody sues Amtrak because their 10 year old son was exposed to a curse word or *** scene; a sleeper car attendant leaves a chocolate on the pillow that he has bought as a little gesture at his own expense and a passenger sues claiming an allergic reaction because there was a trace of nut in it; and the flower? Well, it won't crush you if it falls on your head but if an insect crawled out and bit or stung somebody.....

Yes, I know, you are all banging your heads on your tables and screaming but sadly that's what the world has come to. I work for a major worldwide company and although the litigation culture isn't (yet) as bad over here the things that are prohibited for fear of lawsuits is lengthening by the day.

We're no longer allowed to bring children into our office even if just calling in for a moment, and anybody bringing their new-borns has to show them off in the entrance lobby. "Ridiculous" everybody screamed...and just two months later, in another company's office, a 19 month old child slipped through a gap on a second floor balcony and fell 30 feet to his death.

So where do you draw the line?

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SubwayNut
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On Monday I had a big one recently on the Aderondack (I'm currently finishing up a full TripLog that I will definitely post a link to from this website soon). The conductor asked me not once but twice during the most scenic parts along Lake Champlain if I would like to join him (and about four other passengers) in the rear vestibule. He brought us back there and opened up the rear door and one of the side doors and stayed with us saying things like hold on tight. This didn't happen on one occasion but two both times for about 20 minutes each. It was truly amazing being there the wind blowing my hair getting unique photos. Apparently this is something he does regularly I heard a lady say the second time (who must be a regular) there going to the back AGAIN!

--------------------
Visit my trains and subways website: www.subwaynut.com (It has more then just subways!)

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George Harris
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SubwayNut, Management is probably now on a witch hunt for this particular man. I would suggest thatt if you do a trip log that you leave off the dates to at least make the identification of the individual more difficult. Under today's system, this is a story best left untold until the guy has retired.
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MightyAlweg
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The thoughts here about "liability" and "lawyers" hit the nail right on the head. And quite frankly I'm surprised at the amount of people who don't understand that this would be an issue when Amtrak employees start deviating from standard procedures.

As some may know, I work for Disneyland in a management role. I could rattle off a laundry list of silly little things people have attempted to sue Disney for, or at the very least gone into the Guest Relations office at the end of the night and raised holy heck about something trying to get free tickets, comped dinners, comped hotel stays, etc., etc.

The threat of legal action, or worse, government fines or hand slaps from the likes of the state DOSH or OSHA offices, hangs over the heads of every supervisor and manager at Disneyland.

Here's a recent example. Before the afternoon parade down Main Street USA the Cast Members working crowd control try to keep people happy and upbeat, and one day a very nice older lady working crowd control brought in a little bottle of bubbles they bought at the store themselves. She was a grandmotherly type and was blowing bubbles for the children sitting on the curb waiting for the parade, and the parents loved it.

This went on for a couple of days in her section, until a bubble popped in a ladies eye causing it to sting and turn red and her husband became infuriated that "Disney" would "put us in danger". The nurse was summoned, was there in under two minutes, and applied eye wash and cold compresses to the injured woman on the curb. The husband was still ranting and raving, and the extra attention from the nurse seemed to be fueling the situation. The employee who brought in the bubbles apologized profusely, and made the huge mistake of saying that she bought the bubbles at Wal-Mart and she had no idea what the ingredients were. This was like throwing blood into a pool of feeding sharks for the husband. The angry husband then wanted comped tickets and comped dinners immediately and put his family lawyer on the cell phone to try and intimidate people in the Guest Relations office. He was directed to the Corporate Legal department, and it turned into a drawn out battle that went on for a couple weeks as Disney tried to avoid having to go to court. And yes, he got a large sum of complimentary ticket media and meal vouchers out of the deal. In addition to all of the associated business costs the corporate legal office racked up dealing with it all. The employee and her manager were reprimanded for disobeying corporate policies and state workplace rules about using unauthorized chemicals around fellow employees or guests.

And this was all because a sweet elderly lady was blowing bubbles for children before the parade.

It's not pleasant to think about, but that's the type of world we live in. 99% of people are good folks who won't threaten lawsuits when a bubble pops in their eye or they have an allergic reaction to the flower hanging in the vestibule. But 1% of people are looking to get whatever they can out of any perceived situation where a private company caused some bit of discomfort or inconvenience. And in the age of lawyers and heavy handed state bureacracy, that tiny percentage can become the group that drives employee and management behavior.

I'm actually surprised at how much Amtrak employees are allowed to get away with. And the stories of well-meaning car attendants bringing in chocolates from home to put on pillows (YIKES!) or setting up PG-13 rated movies in the lounge car and hoping they remember to mute the sound every time an actor swears (DOUBLE YIKES!) absolutely make the hair stand up on the back of my neck. In this day and age those Amtrak employees are playing with fire, and I have no doubt that if a manager well versed in corporate law and state bureacracy found out about it they would shut down those actions immediately.

Perhaps the topic here should be of amazement that Amtrak employees get away with what they do, and that they have such incredible leeway to modify the standard operating procedures as much as they do!

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smitty195
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Thanks for the comments, MightyAlweg....I realize that this is the world we live in, but it just makes me shudder to think about how we---as a society---have shot ourselves in the foot. And we continue doing it over and over again. What the lawyers have done to us (and that we have allowed) is outrageous.
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Henry Kisor
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Smitty, Shakespeare was right! "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers . . ." (Henry VI)
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CHATTER
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This same rant was made by the OP on another forum, where it was ascertained that he was only speculating how and why the stickers were disposed of, rather than stating actual facts. Either way, it came off, here and there, as more than a bit whiny.
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Henry Kisor
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Chatter, there is no need to be incivil. Ad hominem remarks reveal more about the poster than they do the subject.
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Mike Smith
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NativeSon spent his own money to have those bumper stickers printed/created. He has the right to complain a bit when they were just thrown away!
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Gilbert B Norman
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Mr. Chatter, while I do not know at what other board Mr. Son submitted these thoughts (nothing at RRNET; Trainoriders? this "enemy of the State" can't help you there), but here I think his opening posting noted Amtrak had the prerogative whether or not the stickers could be circulated on their premises.

Incidentially, I have noted advocacy group material on Amtrak premises in the past - in the Wash Acela Lounge! So evidently if Amtrak likes what the particular advocacy group is "pushing", then I guess the material stays.

Again volks, this is their prerogative!!~!

But from the material's removal, to some extent one can surmise that Amtrak is no more interested in haveing Sunset East restored than is CSX.

Finally, the potential liability issues are often not appreciated by youngsters (somehow, Mr. Son, I think you are of the "young adult' recent college grad demographic). I must acknowledge, I had to join the railroad industry to have appreciation of the exposure any organization with perceived deep pockets to civil liability. Mr. Alweg, from his management position with the Disney Parks and Resorts division of Walt Disney Co (another disclaimer: hold position in DIS) certainly does today, only he knows if he did the day he hired on.

In closing, on another related point, does anyone recall when they last "licked" a postage stamp?

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Vicki
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MightyAlweg,
I'm sure Disney needs me to tell them how to run their business ? but what they need to tell these people is "We'll be happy to sent you to an eye doctor for treatment" and leave it at that-nothing else for a little soap in the eye. People pull this crap because they know they can blackmail someone into giving in.

I broke my tooth on a piece of really wonderful hot crusty bread at Narcoosies a couple of years ago and the restaurant manager offerred to call for an ambulance to take me to the hospital. There was no mention of a comped meal or free park hoppers!

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Gilbert B Norman
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Ms. Vicki, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but i have spent most of my life working in a legal environment (I think 21 years as a CPA qualifies as such).

From the moment you broke your tooth at the restaurant, you were an adverse party (even if as I'm sure was the case, you had no thoughts whatever of a "payday"). The manager offered to call an ambulance; when you declined, it was noted in all likelihood on an incident report as "refused medical attention'. To comp you a meal could be construed as an initiative to "buy you off'.

I personally wish the system could be different, I wish if I were to whack someone's auto (I never have but I sure have been whacked on enough occasions; disclaimer I once "took 30%" on a sideswipe) and were clearly at fault that I could say "I'm sorry, it's my fault, I'll make it right", but our insurance companies will have none of that.

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Steve O.
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Mr. Chatter: Sorry, I wasn't whining. Not even close. Also, I wasn't speculating on HOW they were taken away. I know how they were. I was speculating on WHY they were taken away and thrown in the refuse. So what's the issue here? I don't see one.

Mr. Norman: I'll be hitting that insignificant 29 years of age milestone next month. The posting was on another Amtrak message board, and in it, I clearly stated that I never had intentions of them being given out to passengers. I was giving them so that the hard working members of the NOL crew base saw that there are still some people in Louisiana who think that supporting Amtrak is indeed a worthwhile endeavor. In the end, that's all that really mattered.

Mr. Toy: Thanks as always for the comments. Much appreciated as usual. "Save The Sunset" just seems more fitting to me because the Florida leg really was a huge sell for the train. I'm sure it "holds its own" nowadays considering the rising fuels costs, but taking away the Gulf Coast and Orlando from the network, I'm quite sure, cannot help its cause.

--------------------
Good morning America, how are ya?

44,950 Amtrak rail miles traveled since August 18, 2003.

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Vicki
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Mr. Norman,
You're correct, I was not looking for any compensation nor did I expect any.
I can't blame Disney for my broken tooth and the bread WAS delicious but no one forced me to eat it. I was perfectly aware that it was crunchy as this was our second loaf! My husband says we were being punished for being greedy. Maybe. . .

Posts: 149 | From: Joliet, IL USA | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sbalax
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Mighty Alweg--

Your "bubble" story reminded me of a F/A friend who used to bring a small bubble gun and liquid soap onboard to entertain kids (and adults) and lighten up sometimes tedious gate holds. The kids and their parents generally loved it. It stopped when a passenger in F/C complained that a bubble had landed on her tray table NEAR her predeparture beer and she wanted another one NOW and wanted names of all of the crew.

Frank in sunny SBA

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George Harris
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"No good deed goes unpunished"
Posts: 2693 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DeeCT
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I spent 30+ years in retail management. Retired 6 years ago.

I could write a book about today's lawsuit happy consumer public. Some of it funny, but much of it maddening. Many of today's customers want something for $$Nothing$$ and then want their money back (and more) when they have the slightest problem or experience buyer remorse. If they do not get their way the first thing you hear is "you'll be hearing from my lawyer.

Things like the episodes mentioned above with soap bubbles are why kids no longer get a lollipop or stickers at the tellers window - why some fast food resturants have locked the doors of their playrooms - and stores have discontinued handing out balloons etc.

You are right Mr Harris -- "No good deed goes unpunished" -- and it is sad.

Dee

Posts: 460 | From: North Central CT | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MightyAlweg
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Wanna hear the latest craze in the rush to avoid all liability? Disneyland has just stopped allowing paying guests to complain, or compliment, in writing at the Guest Relations office. For 53 years you could fill out a compliment or complaint form at the Guest Relations office, but as of last week that practice has been stopped at all Disney parks.

Instead, if you have a complaint you can go into Guest Relations and speak with one of the hostesses there staffing the desk. They will take your verbal comments and tell you they will pass on the comments verbally to the appropriate management. There are no forms available, no paper, no pens. And they will not allow you to hand them a letter or any written communication. The hostesses have been trained with a short spiel about "not being able to accept your written comments or suggestions on our operational procedures".

If you insist, you will be given a card with the snail mail address of Disney Corporate Legal in Burbank where you can send a letter. And Disney Legal will then take your letter, attach a form letter in approved Legalese that states Disney refuses to acknowledge receipt of your communication, and then return your original letter back to you with the form letter attached.

The reason? Liability. Disney has been sued repeatedly by people who left written comments about the operation of Disney theme parks. And when the guest returned to Disney property at a future date and saw a change in operation that they may have referenced on a comment card or letter, those folks sued Disney for using "their ideas". Complaints about the availability of popcorn carts, or the addition of certain rides, or the suggestion to replace an aging parade or stage show have been used in legal proceedings where people claimed "Hey, I told Disney that old parade needed to be retired two years ago! And now they've got a new parade and I deserve compensation for that idea!"

It's sad, but true. In this day and age even something as simple as a written comment card is now forbidden by succesful organizations like Disneyland.

You can thank your local lawyer.

Posts: 56 | From: Orange County, CA | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Vicki
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quote:
Originally posted by MightyAlweg:

It's sad, but true. In this day and age even something as simple as a written comment card is now forbidden by succesful organizations like Disneyland.

You can thank your local lawyer.

Oh my goodness! I wonder how something like this will eventually affect the cruise industry where one is almost forced to fill out their comment cards.

I work in a health care facility and believe me people come in the door announcing their intention to sue should anything not go according to their perceived perception of how things should be done. I had a guy tell me if his father's roommate was not allowed bacon he was calling a lawyer.

Posts: 149 | From: Joliet, IL USA | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TwinStarRocket
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Have you ever noticed an increasing reluctance of businesses to communicate using e-mail, even though they hand out business cards with an e-mail address. They would rather respond by phone (at their convenience, not yours). My theory is they do not want to have anything they say written down. That way they can deny they gave you any incorrect information. They also prefer you to be caught unprepared to deal with them.
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smitty195
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If this wasn't real, it would be hysterical. Imagine 25 years ago saying these things.....they would be said in jest, like, "Just think what life would be like if someone sued for millions of dollars because they spilled a hot cup of coffee". We still live in the greatest country that the world has ever seen, but we really have gotten carried away with things. Will we reach a saturation or boiling point someday, and it will all implode on us? I hope not, but I sure think it's possible. What are we doing to ourselves??
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MightyAlweg
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Vicki, I have no idea about cruise lines. As you probably know, Disney operates Disney Cruise Line with two big ships and two even bigger ones now under construction. One of the current Disney Cruise Line ships is operating this summer out of Los Angeles on cruises down the Mexican coast, and lots of the passengers then continue on for several days at Disneyland.

That's a good question about cruise lines, and since Disney Cruise Line operates under the same Disney Parks & Resorts umbrella as the theme parks, I imagine they are doing the same thing. I'll have to ask at work on Monday to see if anyone knows.

Posts: 56 | From: Orange County, CA | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr williams
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I (and many others) had cause to complain at my bank because the ATM had developed a persistant fault and was forever out of action, and got "is there a number where we can call you?". When I insisted on a written explanation there was almost a look of panic in the teller's eyes "...er, in writing?...." Co-incidence? A brand new ATM was installed the following week!
Posts: 394 | From: england | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Henry Kisor
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There is at least one industry that is expanding, not contracting, e-mail use -- the health industry. Doctors and patients are now communicating heavily by e-mail -- if I have a bunch of symptoms I'll email my doctor with them, and a few hours later I'll have a reply with instructions.

This in some areas is part of a move to improve the accountability of hospitals and doctors with better communications, including admissions of mistakes made and apologies thereof. Rather than resulting in more lawsuits, this new approach actually has brought about far fewer. Maybe it could be extended to other industries, but the legal profession won't go for that, of course.

Of course Amtrak owns up to its errors . . .

Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
amtraxmaniac
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Whats sad is that we live in a culture where companies like Disney don't have the cojones' to fight back. If companies like Disney fought back on stupid stuff like less than an eye dropper of suds landing in a woman's eye, PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE AS SUE HAPPY. It'd be a waiste of the person's time. We also have our judges to thank for that..but that's another subject.

In terms of Amtrak's customer service levels, it really boils down to this: Amtrak is run by people that deep down HATE AMTRAK. Plain and simple. The employees that like the industry are punnished by those that do not. Out of any and all businesses, public or private, you cannot and will not encounter a business that sabotages itself more than Amtrak. Once again, why? Because the people running it are not interested in seeing it thrive or grow. I'm no business person, but I've heard it said that when a business stops growing, it starts to die. Why are the only ones putting up a fight for Amtrak those on the outside of the company? Its because those working on the inside simply don't care.

--------------------
Patrick

Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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